covid-19

[billeisele 122]

4 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Citation please. This is false news.

Then that means you have a citation stating such.

[wmw999 2,121]

11 minutes ago, billeisele said:

I luv these articles that say "can" and "could." No doubt that masks help, just much less than most think. Plenty of cans and coulds in this world. Just like the word maybe, about as valuable as the phrase "maybe not."

Frankly, anyone who was “led to believe” that masks were a magic bullet either really wanted to believe that, or was paying attention to sources that used that language. Where I am (solidly blue), plenty of people considered masks to only be better than nothing — which they are. Witness the huge drop in flu and the common cold. Had those been as prevalent as usual, there would have been even more illness this last winter.

Wendy P. 

[wmw999 2,121]

4 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Then that means you have a citation stating such.

Well, you were the one who made the assertion, it’s up to you to back it up. I have an example here: Cloth masks and health care workers

Note, though, that it’s health care workers, in a health care setting. We were supposed to use cloth masks to save the medical grade ones for them — remember?

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,912]

19 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Then that means you have a citation stating such.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I rather suspect you got this information from Tucker or some such talking head. I am not in the habit of chasing around trying to prove a negative. You should know better than to ask.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I rather suspect you got this information from Tucker or some such talking head. I am not in the habit of chasing around trying to prove a negative. You should know better than to ask.

Of course, it's on him but good luck while you wait. Isn't it odd how so many fewer colds etc.. were passed around whilst we indoctrinated were wasting our time masking, standing apart, and scaring granny?

[kallend 1,623]

billeisele doing the old cherry picking thing again!

I just love the "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge, skill and training" thing.

[billeisele 122]

6 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Well, you were the one who made the assertion, it’s up to you to back it up. I have an example here: Cloth masks and health care workers

Note, though, that it’s health care workers, in a health care setting. We were supposed to use cloth masks to save the medical grade ones for them — remember?

Wendy P. 

Good prior post about the magic bullet masks, I agree with the first sentence. Casual conversation with all kinds of people has shown me that some believe they provide a high degree of protection. My only disagreement with your post is assigning the drop in cold and flu to mask wearing. No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors. 

As to the requirement to provide citations. Didn't know that was the rule, and if so, then the prolific posters here need to start doing it. They make some claims that are difficult to believe.

Having said that, thanks for taking the high road and providing the cloth mask reference.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

7 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Good prior post about the magic bullet masks, I agree with the first sentence. Casual conversation with all kinds of people has shown me that some believe they provide a high degree of protection. My only disagreement with your post is assigning the drop in cold and flu to mask wearing. No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors. 

As to the requirement to provide citations. Didn't know that was the rule, and if so, then the prolific posters here need to start doing it. They make some claims that are difficult to believe.

Having said that, thanks for taking the high road and providing the cloth mask reference.

Good googaloo, that's rich. You post this: :" No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors."

After posting this: "I luv these articles that say "can" and "could." No doubt that masks help, just much less than most think. Plenty of cans and coulds in this world. Just like the word maybe, about as valuable as the phrase "maybe not."

Try reading this: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm  which includes this: "The percentage of outpatient visits due to respiratory illness decreased nationally again this week and is below baseline. Influenza is contributing to levels of respiratory illness, but other respiratory viruses are also circulating. The relative contribution of influenza varies by location."

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

As to the requirement to provide citations. Didn't know that was the rule, 

No requirement. If you post false news like you did you may be called out. I was only asking for a citation to point out that you likely had no real basis for the claim and to give you a chance to supply one so I could refute it. The fact is that what you posted is completely false and when you make such claims you risk having a request to defend it. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 910]

15 hours ago, airdvr said:

We've reached a point in this fiasco where everyone knows what they personally need to do to lower the odds of contracting.  Time for the mandates to end.  Live your life however you'd like.  Wear dresses.

 

14 hours ago, billvon said:

Unfortunately some of those things are "not be 80 years old" or "not be immunocompromised."  That might be easy for you.  It's not easy for everyone.

I went to look at a piece of antique furniture a couple days ago. They said that someone living with them was immune-comprimised and living in the basement.So they put the piece of furniture out on their back deck to be viewed. An older man was out on the deck when I arrived wearing a mask. Upon arrival he immediately went into the home. The entire family was wearing masks inside the home and peering out the windows at me. I was also masked and told them i was triple vaccinated.

Long term care homes also have to cope with the throw the doors open political philosophies of governments. Oh well, as long as some can throw their masks away, go to bars w/o restrictions. The party bus of the few can rule the road.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Good prior post about the magic bullet masks, I agree with the first sentence. Casual conversation with all kinds of people has shown me that some believe they provide a high degree of protection. My only disagreement with your post is assigning the drop in cold and flu to mask wearing. No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors. 

As to the requirement to provide citations. Didn't know that was the rule, and if so, then the prolific posters here need to start doing it. They make some claims that are difficult to believe.

Having said that, thanks for taking the high road and providing the cloth mask reference.

I don't recall anyone saying that masks would be a 'magic bullet'.

Except, that is, for the people who try to make that claim when they are trying to claim that masks don't work.

From the beginning, it was made pretty clear that masks reduce the spread. They don't eliminate it. There are even links & pics on this very thread from a while back that clarify the reductions.

They are most effective at helping prevent a sick person from 'spewing' virus out to infect others. Wearing one to prevent catching the virus is a lot less effective (not zero, but less).
Kind of funny that 'taking care of others' is something that so many people are unwilling to do. 

Remember when Fauci said he didn't want to recommend them?
It was because they were worried about the idiots going on a buying spree and hoarding them (remember the Great Toilet Paper Shortage?).
And because he was worried that people would think they were a 'magic bullet' and stop taking other precautions.

As with just about everything, masks are a part of the mitigation strategy. 
Interestingly, handwashing is probably the least effective part. Covid is airborne/droplet spread. All the surface cleaning and sanitizing did little to stop Covid (it was likely one of the reasons 'normal' colds & flu largely disappeared). 

Providing citations isn't a 'rule', but it is a 'best practice'. Has been for a long time.
It's always been the 'responsibility' of the person making the claim, not the person challenging it.

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

I luv these articles that say "can" and "could." No doubt that masks help, just much less than most think.

If people think that masks work 100% - then I agree.  They reduce, but do not eliminate, your odds of infecting someone else.  They are like reserves in that respect.

Quote

The problem is people were led to believe that they were a magic shield. No, absolutely not. Hey, look at me, I have a mask! I can go to Wal Mart and breath the recirculated air from dozens of people with no risk.

I have never heard anyone say anything like masks are a 100% effective "magic shield."  Can you point to a statement by a government or a medical organization that claims that masks are 100% effective?  Because I think that's a strawman argument.

And if you look at what the government actually said, it made it pretty clear that they weren't 100% effective.  No one said, ever, that you can go to a crowded Wal-Mart for hours and be perfectly safe.  In fact, they were saying that you had to mask AND avoid unneccesary trips to that Wal-Mart AND stay six feet away from other people where practical.  That implicitly says that masks are not 100%.

Sure, people may have falsely assumed that masks work 100%.  That's their problem, and the best solution to that is education.

Quote

They clearly stated that the masks do not work the way the CDC and other talking heads stated

What, exactly, did they disagree with?  Did they disagree with the CDC that masks worked 100%?  Because, again, the CDC never said that.

Quote

Another group of medical experts, respiratory therapists and doctors treating respiratory ailments, have noted a big increase in patients. The primary issue is mask wearing.

How do we know it's not mask wearing and not:

1) COVID and its fallout
2) the difficulty in getting into a hospital until the problem was severe and/or
3) anxiety causing asthma and worsening COPD?

Do you have data that shows pathogen X reproduces better in masks and that that's causing it?  Because doctors (including my wife) often wear masks for most of the day exposed to some of the worst bugs out there.  And they don't get sick any more often than other people.

Quote

Here is the real problem. COVID is a respiratory ailment. When the lungs are compromised you have a huge, potentially life ending, problem. Uhhh...Why risk contracting a lung ailment from mask wearing with the risk of contracting COVID during that time. 

Because if YOU wear a mask your odds of getting it go down.  And if everyone ELSE wears a mask your odds of getting it go down even more.  Again, actual studies prove this.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

9 hours ago, kallend said:

I'm not quite 80, but I don't consider getting vaccinated and boosted, and wearing a mask at the grocery store or in an airport, to have been a significant "upend" to my life.

Hi John,

I'm 81 & I agree with you.  I do not like wearing a mask.  I do not like getting shots.  I do it to keep me & others safer.  Not absolutely safe, just safer.

There are no guarantees in life.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

I'm 81 & I agree with you.  I do not like wearing a mask.  I do not like getting shots.  I do it to keep me & others safer.  Not absolutely safe, just safer.

There are no guarantees in life.

Jerry Baumchen

Bingo. I hate the damn things, I've never liked shots but I do it to decrease my risk of infection and to stay out of the ICU not just for me but others, too. The problem is that some others are just plain pig headed and while I may be freeing up space for their loved ones they aren't reciprocating. That's what is the most wrong.

[gowlerk 1,912]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I've never liked shots

Who does? But I think I may be getting addicted to these injection drugs. I've been jabbed 3 times for covid, plus the first flu shot in many years, and tetanus plus diphtheria. Now I want more. I'm becoming a slave sheep!

[JoeWeber 2,299]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Who does? But I think I may be getting addicted to these injection drugs. I've been jabbed 3 times for covid, plus the first flu shot in many years, and tetanus plus diphtheria. Now I want more. I'm becoming a slave sheep!

You can buy the things at any veterinary supply for cheap. Enjoy.

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

You can buy the things at any veterinary supply for cheap. Enjoy.

I'm in Canada. I can go to the safe injection site.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I'm in Canada. I can go to the safe injection site.

And do better than Ivermectin, too!

[gowlerk 1,912]

4 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And do better than Ivermectin, too!

Hey, I have a friend who is mostly otherwise sane, and full vaxxed, tell me that he is starting to think that maybe there is something to the Ivermectin use story. He heard somewhere that a well spoken doctor was saying that many patients have been recovering after using it. I gently pointed out that most people recover without taking anything. He was thinking about it when I left. 

My wife nursed a woman who had two close family members die of covid. After the the ventilator was removed she said that "the Ivermectin didn't work" and that "maybe she would think about getting vaccinated now".  

[JoeWeber 2,299]

10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Hey, I have a friend who is mostly otherwise sane, and full vaxxed, tell me that he is starting to think that maybe there is something to the Ivermectin use story. He heard somewhere that a well spoken doctor was saying that many patients have been recovering after using it. I gently pointed out that most people recover without taking anything. He was thinking about it when I left. 

My wife nursed a woman who had two close family members die of covid. After the the ventilator was removed she said that "the Ivermectin didn't work" and that "maybe she would think about getting vaccinated now".  

If it was proven to work I'd take Bag Balm and I'd lick it from the bag PRN. However, for the moment I'm sticking with vaccine and white and red burgundy. So far, so good.

[ryoder 1,384]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If it was proven to work I'd take Bag Balm and I'd lick it from the bag PRN. However, for the moment I'm sticking with vaccine and white and red burgundy. So far, so good.

 

[kallend 1,623]

4 hours ago, billvon said:

 

Because if YOU wear a mask your odds of getting it go down.  And if everyone ELSE wears a mask your odds of getting it go down even more.  Again, actual studies prove this.

Even Herman Cain might still be alive if he hadn't been so stupid.

 

But good riddance.

[headoverheels 291]

38 minutes ago, kallend said:

Even Herman Cain might still be alive if he hadn't been so stupid.

 

But good riddance.

But he had his freedom.

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Good googaloo, that's rich. You post this: :" No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors."

After posting this: "I luv these articles that say "can" and "could." No doubt that masks help, just much less than most think. Plenty of cans and coulds in this world. Just like the word maybe, about as valuable as the phrase "maybe not."

Try reading this: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm  which includes this: "The percentage of outpatient visits due to respiratory illness decreased nationally again this week and is below baseline. Influenza is contributing to levels of respiratory illness, but other respiratory viruses are also circulating. The relative contribution of influenza varies by location."

 

Come on, Bill, come back with a refutation. You made a medical argument without an attribution. You got push back and then complained that it was really about decorum. No personal attacks have been made. Instead you've been invited to support your position with facts. Saying you heard it on a radio talk show and yada, yada, yada isn't an answer or an explanation. Support your point.

[billeisele 122]

21 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Good googaloo, that's rich. You post this: :" No doubt it has some impact but the decrease in social gathering, and education on handwashing and sanitation are probably a major factors."

After posting this: "I luv these articles that say "can" and "could." No doubt that masks help, just much less than most think. Plenty of cans and coulds in this world. Just like the word maybe, about as valuable as the phrase "maybe not."

Good morning Joe. Great game.

Can't find the definition of Googaloo, doesn't seem to be a real word. But if you have a citation.... 

You've quoted items I've said and either, just want to argue, or truly don't understand that there is a difference in the two discussions. The can and could words was in reference to a citation that is claimed to show a certain scientific result. Any statement of fact that has these words has little value. The words soften the message and lower it's relevance. A typical tactic when the results aren't proven to the level required to be proven.

In contrast, my use of the words "some impact" and "probably" were specifically chosen because I don't know how much impact any of the factors have in the total outcome.