New Zealand responds to mass shooting

[BillyVance 34]

Pretty long list of shooters who were either atheists, liberals, muslims or communists. Where are the conservative shooters?

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 minute ago, BillyVance said:

He's not a right winger.

I have not read the "manifesto". But it's clear he is a white supremacist and a white nationalist. Can you name any groups of people who share those beliefs and are also considered left wing?

[BillyVance 34]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I have not read the "manifesto". But it's clear he is a white supremacist and a white nationalist. Can you name any groups of people who share those beliefs and are also considered left wing?

Sure. the ANTIFA thugs we've seen attacking conservatives and anybody else that doesn't agree with the leftist agenda and ideology. I find it hilarious that they call themselves ANTIFA, when their behavior actually makes them fascists who try to suppress freedom of speech.

[gowlerk 1,912]

8 minutes ago, BillyVance said:

Pretty long list of shooters who were either atheists, liberals, muslims or communists. Where are the conservative shooters?

John Wilkes Booth was a liberal because he belonged to the D party? I'm pretty sure your knowledge of history is better than that. Sometimes you make rational cogent arguments. This is not one of them.

Edited March 18, 2019 by gowlerk

[yoink 321]

54 minutes ago, BillyVance said:

Then he is a fucking delusional idiot. Seems like many of these liberal mass shooters are. (shrugs)

He is a self confessed right wing white supremacist.

 

How you get 'liberal' from that is pretty delusional I'd say.

Edited March 18, 2019 by yoink

[billvon 2,400]

43 minutes ago, BillyVance said:

He's not a right winger.

Of course he is.  Hates immigrants.  Claims Trump is "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose."  Says he is "just an ordinary White man” who killed all those people “to show the invaders that our lands will never be their lands, our homelands are our own and that, as long as a white man still lives, they will NEVER conquer our lands."

Heck, if he was running for president, the right wing would be falling all over themselves to vote for him.  BUILD THE WALL!

Quote

 Where are the conservative shooters?

Robert Gregory Bowers killed 11 Jews in a synagogue because Jewish organizations "bring invaders in that kill our people. I can't sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I'm going in."

Greg Bush shot two black people in a Kroger's.  He told a bystander "Don't shoot me. I won't shoot you. Whites don't shoot whites."

Neo-Nazi Samuel Woodward shot Blaze Bernstein because he was a gay Jew.

Neo-Nazi Ronald Kidwell shot Meshon Cooper-Williams, a black woman.  He was proud of his swastika tattoo.   His daughter said that "he is a monster. He has done this his whole life.”

And that's just 2018.  Right wing violence has been on the rise for the past few years.  From WaPo:

===========================

Over the past decade, attackers motivated by right-wing political ideologies have committed dozens of shootings, bombings and other acts of violence, far more than any other category of domestic extremist, according to a Washington Post analysis of data on global terrorism. While the data show a decades-long drop-off in violence by left-wing groups, violence by white supremacists and other far-right attackers has been on the rise since Barack Obama’s presidency — and has surged since President Trump took office.

This year has been especially deadly.Just last month, 13 people died in two incidents: A Kentucky gunman attempted to enter a historically black church, police say, then shot and killed two black patrons in a nearby grocery store. And an anti-Semitic loner who had expressed anger about a caravan of Central American refugees that Trump termed an “invasion” has been charged with gunning down 11 people in a Pittsburgh synagogue, the deadliest act of anti-Semitic violence in U.S. history.

===========================

 

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

Good guys with guns are not the fundamental cause of gun violence here in the US.

True.

Now that that's settled . . .

. . .we all can concentrate on the efforts of groups like the CDC, among others that address the real issues that lead to good people doing bad things.  Which is why we've been able to cut the crime rate in half despite doubling the amount of guns in this country over the last 30+ years or so.

But that may not be as gratifying as sticking it to the gun loving conservatives and their dangerous toys.

[billvon 2,400]

2 minutes ago, Coreece said:

. . .we all can concentrate on the efforts of groups like the CDC, among others that address the real issues that lead to good people doing bad things.  Which is why we've been able to cut the crime rate in half despite doubling the amount of guns in this country over the last 30+ years or so.

But that may not be as gratifying as sticking it to the gun loving conservatives and their dangerous toys.

Agreed!  Fund the CDC to research the causes of violent crime, and act on them. Even if one of those causes is easy availability of guns, as many doctors have been saying for years.

[DJL 232]

1 hour ago, BillyVance said:

Pretty long list of shooters who were either atheists, liberals, muslims or communists. Where are the conservative shooters?

You should at least look up the first person on the list if you're trying to present it as proof.  JWB was a member of the "Know Nothing" party.  Next, just a brief thought, if current Republicans are so anti-slavery and pro Union then why don't they start erecting statues for those who fought against slavery instead of commemorating those who attempted to uphold it?

Continuing:

Charles J. Guiteu was a supporter of the Republican Party

John Hinckley Jr, no political records available

James Hubert, no political records available

Patrick Sherrill, no political records available

James Pough, no political records available

George Hennard, no political records available

James Daniel Simpson (And all other Texas shootings), no political records available

Larry Ashbrook, no political records available but he was affiliated with the KKK

Robert Pickett, no political records available

Douglas Williams, no political records available, he is reported to have said he is was going to "kill me a bunch of niggers"

Hui Cho, was not a legal resident/citizen of the US and his rants were about rich brats and random garbage

Jared Lee Loughner, registered as an Independent

James Holmes, no political records available

Andrew Engeldinger, no political records available

Adam Lanza, no political records available, family described him as politically conservative

Aaron Alexis, Navy shipyard, no political records available but he was described to be more liberal before low frequency radio waves told him to go on a mass shooting

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by DJL

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

3 hours ago, BillyVance said:

He's not a right winger.

What would you call him? 

Liberal?

He's a fucking white supremacist. Those are generally considered 'extreme right wing'.
What would you consider Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon? 
Centrist?

 

And while the shooter may not have liked some of Trump's policies, he did say that Trump was "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose".

 

The guy who sent the mail bombs praised Trump. He had Trump signs all over his van.
The guy who shot up the synagogue in Pittsburgh praised Trump.

The Coast Guardsman who was arrested with a bunch of guns, planning on using them praised Trump. 

 

How can you pretend that Trumps rhetoric and hatred have nothing to do with this?

[tonyhays 86]

8 hours ago, BillyVance said:

He's not a right winger

Australian PM and current leader of the Liberal party (the Australian equivalent of the Republican party) disagrees.  

"Australians should be alert after ‘violent, right-wing terrorist’:"

 

https://thewest.com.au/news/world/australians-should-be-alert-after-violent-right-wing-terrorist-pm-scott-morrison-ng-b881137338z

[billvon 2,400]

This story by US News and World Report was very prophetic - it was from three months ago.  Unfortunately, as Trump has emboldened more Nazis, radical nationalists and white supremacists, we have seen steadily rising levels of right wing terrorism.  This shooting is just the latest in a trend that began years ago.

================================================

Globally, Terrorism Deaths Are on the Decline

But in North America and Western Europe, the threat of right-wing terrorism is growing.

By Megan Trimble, Digital News Editor Dec. 5, 2018, at 12:01 a.m.

 

BY AT LEAST ONE measure, the world is growing less deadly from terrorism, but an international study finds new threats – like right-wing political violence – are blooming.

The sixth Global Terrorism Index published Wednesday by the Institute for Economics and Peace, an independent nonprofit think tank based in Australia, scored 163 independent states and territories according to how terrorism affects them. The assessment considers the number of terrorist incidents, fatalities, injuries and property damage a country faces as a result of terrorism. Deaths attributed to terrorism fell for the third consecutive year worldwide, decreasing by 27 percent between 2016 and 2017 to 18,814 globally, according to the study.

 . . . .

The threat of far-right political terrorism, for one, is a growing concern in North America and Western Europe, according to the findings. While the United Kingdom, Spain, Finland, Sweden, and Austria were the only countries to experience increases in deaths from terrorism in Western Europe, both Canada and the U.S. experienced increases in total deaths in North America.

Far-right groups and individuals caused 66 deaths and launched 127 attacks in the regions between 2013 and 2017. The majority of attacks, according to the findings, were carried out by lone actors with far-right, white nationalist or anti-Muslim beliefs.

In the United States, the violence at the August 2017 "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia; the October 2017 Las Vegas shooting; and killing of 11 people in a Synagogue in Pittsburgh this past October contributed to the country's movement to rank No. 20 among the most affected by terrorism.

Steve Killelea, executive chairman of the Institute for Economics and Peace, suggests reported attacks are largely related to alienation.

Such alienation “is popping up in the rise of populism in Europe and the rise of populism in the states and the election of [U.S. President Donald] Trump,” he says, and it can lead to terroristic violence when far-right politics are blended with psychological imbalances.

“Western democracy needs to address that alienation,” he said.

=====================

[billvon 2,400]

9 hours ago, DJL said:

You should at least look up the first person on the list if you're trying to present it as proof

You and your ivory tower elitist "looking up of things."   What are you, a factinista on the nerd patrol?  His actual political alignment doesn't matter; it's that that long list of people makes you FEEL like there's a lot of left wing terror.  And that's really what's important here - feelings.  Facts are for bed-wetting liberals.

[obelixtim 100]

Timothy McVeigh?

[nigel99 143]

11 hours ago, tonyhays said:

Australian PM and current leader of the Liberal party (the Australian equivalent of the Republican party) disagrees.  

"Australians should be alert after ‘violent, right-wing terrorist’:"

 

https://thewest.com.au/news/world/australians-should-be-alert-after-violent-right-wing-terrorist-pm-scott-morrison-ng-b881137338z

My sister likes Trump and while we don’t talk often she sent me a link on how the shooter was ‘like the left wing environmentalists’

Honestly I think ‘fundamentalists’ are the problem, any belief taken to extreme is an issue, atheist, Muslim, Christian, right or left wing. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 hours ago, obelixtim said:

Timothy McVeigh?

Well, technically McVeigh didn't shoot anyone. He blew them up (and collapsed a building on top of them).

That list has a LOT of folks missing. 

Dylan Roof, white supremacist and confederate flag waver, shot up the church in South Carolina.
Patrick Purdy, one of the earliest 'school shooters', in Stockton CA. He was a white supremacist who shot up the school because it was largely attended by Vietnamese refugees. 

Stephen Paddock. The Vegas shooter. "Sovereign Citizen" believer, among other stupid crap. 

 

I won't disagree that these sorts of shooters come from across the political spectrum.

But the majority (by a large amount) of them in modern times are right wingers.

[BillyVance 34]

13 hours ago, billvon said:

This story by US News and World Report was very prophetic - it was from three months ago.  Unfortunately, as Trump has emboldened more Nazis, radical nationalists and white supremacists, we have seen steadily rising levels of right wing terrorism.  This shooting is just the latest in a trend that began years ago.

================================================

Globally, Terrorism Deaths Are on the Decline

But in North America and Western Europe, the threat of right-wing terrorism is growing.

By Megan Trimble, Digital News Editor Dec. 5, 2018, at 12:01 a.m.

 

BY AT LEAST ONE measure, the world is growing less deadly from terrorism, but an international study finds new threats – like right-wing political violence – are blooming.

The sixth Global Terrorism Index published Wednesday by the Institute for Economics and Peace, an independent nonprofit think tank based in Australia, scored 163 independent states and territories according to how terrorism affects them. The assessment considers the number of terrorist incidents, fatalities, injuries and property damage a country faces as a result of terrorism. Deaths attributed to terrorism fell for the third consecutive year worldwide, decreasing by 27 percent between 2016 and 2017 to 18,814 globally, according to the study.

 . . . .

The threat of far-right political terrorism, for one, is a growing concern in North America and Western Europe, according to the findings. While the United Kingdom, Spain, Finland, Sweden, and Austria were the only countries to experience increases in deaths from terrorism in Western Europe, both Canada and the U.S. experienced increases in total deaths in North America.

Far-right groups and individuals caused 66 deaths and launched 127 attacks in the regions between 2013 and 2017. The majority of attacks, according to the findings, were carried out by lone actors with far-right, white nationalist or anti-Muslim beliefs.

In the United States, the violence at the August 2017 "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia; the October 2017 Las Vegas shooting; and killing of 11 people in a Synagogue in Pittsburgh this past October contributed to the country's movement to rank No. 20 among the most affected by terrorism.

Steve Killelea, executive chairman of the Institute for Economics and Peace, suggests reported attacks are largely related to alienation.

Such alienation “is popping up in the rise of populism in Europe and the rise of populism in the states and the election of [U.S. President Donald] Trump,” he says, and it can lead to terroristic violence when far-right politics are blended with psychological imbalances.

“Western democracy needs to address that alienation,” he said.

=====================

All violence are bad. Hell, in just the last couple of weeks, over 120 Christians were slaughtered by Muslims in 3 different countries across Africa.

[billvon 2,400]

29 minutes ago, BillyVance said:

All violence are bad. Hell, in just the last couple of weeks, over 120 Christians were slaughtered by Muslims in 3 different countries across Africa.

Yep.  And a right wing extremist just killed 50 Muslims in New Zealand.  Worldwide, right wing attacks are going up even as terrorism overall is going down.

[BIGUN 1,053]

5 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Honestly I think ‘fundamentalists’ are the problem, any belief taken to extreme is an issue, atheist, Muslim, Christian, right or left wing.

That's it in a nutshell. Every belief has their extremes. Arguing over which label they "belong" to is just a waste of time. How about one label - "Extremists." 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That's it in a nutshell. Every belief has their extremes. Arguing over which label they "belong" to is just a waste of time. How about one label - "Extremists." 

True to a large degree. 

But when some countries support and encourage extremists, they are vilified and suffer consequences. Iran is an example of a country that supported Islamic extremists and paid a price.

 

However, Trump has not called out Saudi Arabia for their support of Muslim extremists in Yemen. Or even the (likely) government ordered murder of a journalist in their embassy in Turkey.

Trump did call Nazis and KKK 'very fine people.' And there have been quite a few Right wing extremists who have taken those comments as support of their position. 

 

Trump's response to this seems to be that he doesn't think it's a real problem. He doesn't reject their philosophy. He doesn't say 'I don't support them'. He doesn't even say anything like 'they are misinterpreting my words'. 
He just says that they aren't a problem

[billvon 2,400]

26 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That's it in a nutshell. Every belief has their extremes. Arguing over which label they "belong" to is just a waste of time. How about one label - "Extremists." 

Sure.  But that can make it harder to solve the problem.

If most of the violence is coming from Islamic extremists, that will have one set of solutions.  If most of the violence is coming from right wing extremists, another set of solutions will likely work better.  Sure, extremism is the underlying problem - but the causes of extremism differ depending on the type.  As a simple example, passing a law protecting the religious freedoms of all religions in a western country will likely reduce Islamic extremism but increase right wing extremism.  

[BIGUN 1,053]

28 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sure, extremism is the underlying problem - but the causes of extremism differ depending on the type.

I understand what you're saying, but the answer also lies in that same sentence. Currently, the FBI, BATFE, alphabets etc., have a reference manual of right at 360 Violent Extremist Organizations and had approached each one with a different strategy. The issue becomes when one label extends into another. For example, The National Democratic Party of Germany - which is actually a far-right wing neo-nazi group.  Alphabets from around the world along with NGO's have recently changed to one strategy with a global task force for all extremist organizations. The following is from the "Counter Extremism Project" which I'm not so sure doesn't have alphabet financial resources (see CEP Leadership) : 

• Quote

   

  • Expose, degrade, and stop the financing and other economic support of global extremist organizations;
  • Build a best-in-class clearinghouse and database of extremist groups and their supporters, mapping the social and financial networks, tools and methodologies on which these groups rely.
  • Assemble a global network of experts to promote our collective security, and the universal values and interests that are threatened by extremist ideology, recruitment, and practices.
  • Oppose the spread of extremist ideology by advancing compelling counter narratives, and by stemming the recruitment of support as these groups take advantage of at-risk communities, and youth to promote their ideology and power.

   

   

More information here: https://www.counterextremism.com/

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by BIGUN
ADD QUOTE

[SkyDekker 1,122]

On 3/18/2019 at 4:48 AM, Coreece said:

I think we've been through this before.  We have more guns now than ever, yet crime has been on a downward trend for the last 25+ years. 

Imagine how much lower the crime rate could be, how much safer your community could be, if it weren't for so many guns and the ease of acquiring more.

[obelixtim 100]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Imagine how much lower the crime rate could be, how much safer your community could be, if it weren't for so many guns and the ease of acquiring more.

I read somewhere recently that more than a million Americans have died due to gunshot wounds in America since 1980. That is all causes...crime, accidental discharge, suicide etc. But that is an astonishing figure. How many Americans have died due to "terrorism" in comparison? The problem is how easy they are to acquire with minimal checks. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

9 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Honestly I think ‘fundamentalists’ are the problem, any belief taken to extreme is an issue, atheist, Muslim, Christian, right or left wing. 

Hi Nigel,

I doubt that anyone is 'more' atheist than I am.  I do not know of any group defined as 'atheists' that have gone on any killing spree; or any other spree to maim people.

Jerry Baumchen