New Zealand responds to mass shooting

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, BillyVance said:

I don't see how those strong gun laws are helping. Bad people are still going to get them one way or another.

That's like saying "drunk driving laws don't help.  Alcoholics are still going to drive drunk."  Someone might believe that, especially if they want to be able to drink and drive.  But in fact laws have helped reduce drunk driving deaths.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

23 hours ago, cjwilt said:

Where do you get this information? Simply owning a firearm increases your risk of being killed in an act of violence? This must be a biased study paid for and produced by some anti firearm organization. Please do share.

You can start here and then do all kinds of research for yourself.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

On 3/20/2019 at 12:21 PM, Coreece said:

But you keep ignoring the fact that we have already cut it in half without reducing the number of firearms.  It's ok to imagine what life would be like without guns, but in the mean time, how about we continue with what's been proven to work and see how far we can take it.

You mean continue on how the rest of the civilized world has lower crime rates, those proven actions?

And I am clearly not ignoring the fact the rates have already gone down, considering my original statement said they could be even lower.

 

 

[SkyDekker 1,123]

22 hours ago, cjwilt said:

Hell, they rob them out of the rail cars.

Why are there so many guns on rail cars? Because there is that much demand for freely available guns. The more legal guns are easily obtainable, the more illegal guns are easily obtainable.

[Coreece 190]

23 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

On 3/20/2019 at 7:21 PM, Coreece said:

But you keep ignoring the fact that we have already cut it in half without reducing the number of firearms.  It's ok to imagine what life would be like without guns, but in the mean time, how about we continue with what's been proven to work and see how far we can take it.

You mean continue on how the rest of the civilized world has lower crime rates, those proven actions?

Newsflash!  The ship with 300 million guns has already docked, unloaded and sailed away.

The situation here really isn't like other countries, never has been.

 

25 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

And I am clearly not ignoring the fact the rates have already gone down, considering my original statement said they could be even lower.

You said that your way would take generations, but our way has already cut the rate in half in less than one generation and we're not finished.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

The situation here really isn't like other countries, never has been.

Correct, it is significantly worse.

 

1 minute ago, Coreece said:

but our way has already cut the rate in half in less than one generation and we're not finished.

And yet still worse than any valid comparable.

[cjwilt 8]

49 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

You can start here and then do all kinds of research for yourself.

Thanks another link that doesn't say anything about how I'm going to be violently attacked because I'm a gun owner.

 

[gowlerk 1,914]

5 minutes ago, cjwilt said:

Thanks another link that doesn't say anything about how I'm going to be violently attacked because I'm a gun owner.

Sigh.....Gun owners are more at risk because they are near guns. Guns are made to kill people and the closer you are to them the more likely they are to kill you. They don't make you more likely to be attacked. But if you are, most likely by your spouse or someone close to you, your gun makes you more vulnerable because A) it may be used against you, or B) your attacker may feel the need to get the drop on you, or (most likely) C) you will use it to commit suicide.

[Coreece 190]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

5 minutes ago, Coreece said:

The situation here really isn't like other countries, never has been.

Correct, it is significantly worse.

Correct and it has to be dealt with differently.

If the rest of the civilised world had as much guns as we do, their entire countries would look like Detroit and collapse. Yet here we stand with our 300 million guns still intact as the leading super power of the civilized free world.

 

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

5 minutes ago, Coreece said:

but our way has already cut the rate in half in less than one generation and we're not finished.

And yet still worse than any valid comparable.

We'd still be worse even if we did it your way, and you already said that your way would take longer.

 

[cjwilt 8]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

 They don't make you more likely to be attacked.

Then quit repeating this lie.

 

[gowlerk 1,914]

3 minutes ago, cjwilt said:

Then quit repeating this lie.

 

???????????????????? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I suspect that earlier poster didn't either , but I could be wrong. My belief is that you were told that owning a gun makes you more likely to die of gun violence. That is not the same thing as being more likely to be attacked.

[cjwilt 8]

7 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

???????????????????? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I suspect that earlier poster didn't either , but I could be wrong. My belief is that you were told that owning a gun makes you more likely to die of gun violence. That is not the same thing as being more likely to be attacked.

No, I wasn't directing it at you. The previous poster.

 

And no, I'm not more likely to die of gun violence simply because I own a gun. I've owned guns since before I was a teen and some how I've managed to live all these years peacefully owning guns without any violence. I guess I'm the one lucky person who is in this position.

 

Reading through many of the links posted above clearly displays that a lot of the stats come from mentally ill gun owners and complete morons who don't know the first thing about gun safety.

[gowlerk 1,914]

1 minute ago, cjwilt said:

And no, I'm not more likely to die of gun violence simply because I own a gun. I've owned guns since before I was a teen and some how I've managed to live all these years peacefully owning guns without any violence. I guess I'm the one lucky person who is in this position.

The fact that you have done well is an anecdote. It is only one data point and does little to change the overall statistical picture. Most, if fact almost all gun owners will do fine, just like you.

[billvon 2,400]

6 minutes ago, cjwilt said:

And no, I'm not more likely to die of gun violence simply because I own a gun. I've owned guns since before I was a teen and some how I've managed to live all these years peacefully owning guns without any violence. I guess I'm the one lucky person who is in this position.

I know people who honestly believe that they can drive drunk because they are excellent drivers to begin with, so even after four beers they are better than most people on the road.  And who knows?  They may be right.

But if you want to reduce the number of drunk driving deaths, making it harder to drive drunk (harsher penalties, sobriety checkpoints, laws on bartenders serving drunks) will accomplish that.

[cjwilt 8]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The fact that you have done well is an anecdote. It is only one data point and does little to change the overall statistical picture. Most, if fact almost all gun owners will do fine, just like you.

Most of the properly trained owners will do fine. My friend who lives under strict gun laws in Belgium is required by law to practice every 2 or 3 months. Not such a bad gun law IMO.

 

 

[cjwilt 8]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

I know people who honestly believe that they can drive drunk because they are excellent drivers to begin with, so even after four beers they are better than most people on the road.  And who knows?  They may be right.

But if you want to reduce the number of drunk driving deaths, making it harder to drive drunk (harsher penalties, sobriety checkpoints, laws on bartenders serving drunks) will accomplish that.

Which is why I stated farther back in this thread that I support harsher mandatory minimums for people breaking the current laws we already have.

 

Murderers do less time in jail verses drug dealers.

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

1 minute ago, cjwilt said:

Most of the properly trained owners will do fine. My friend who lives under strict gun laws in Belgium is required by law to practice every 2 or 3 months. Not such a bad gun law IMO.

 

 

Right. Most.

 

That doesn't change the fact that owing a gun puts you at greater risk of being shot. 

 

Don't forget that these are statistics. Based on averages. You may be a perfectly safe & sane gun owner. 

That would put you 'above average'. So your personal, individual risk may  be lower than average.

The below average folks, OTOH...

 

They have higher risks than average.

[cjwilt 8]

14 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that owing a gun puts you at greater risk of being shot. 

 

 

Owning a gun and carrying a gun are two totally different situations.

 

If you are going to spout stats, please use the correct terminology.

 

Edit - I see you are referring to the mentally ill/suicide cases and irresponsible owners. My fault.

Edited March 21, 2019 by cjwilt

[gowlerk 1,914]

2 minutes ago, cjwilt said:

Owning a gun and carrying a gun are two totally different situations.

 

If you are going to spout stats, please use the correct terminology.

It would be useful if when you are quoting someone you bear in mind that your words will be taken as a reply to what that person said. You keep on replying to quotes in the context of completely different posts that you remember from earlier. Wolfriverjoe did not spout stats or use incorrect terminology. You just have a memory that someone did. You can still make that point, but if you simply reply to the thread it will be far more clear.

[cjwilt 8]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It would be useful if when you are quoting someone you bear in mind that your words will be taken as a reply to what that person said. You keep on replying to quotes in the context of completely different posts that you remember from earlier. Wolfriverjoe did not spout stats or use incorrect terminology. You just have a memory that someone did. You can still make that point, but if you simply reply to the thread it will be far more clear.

Yep, my fault.

 

Edited above.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

2 minutes ago, cjwilt said:

Owning a gun and carrying a gun are two totally different situations.

 

If you are going to spout stats, please use the correct terminology.

Yes they are.

What stats did I 'spout'?

I simply agreed with the above people that owning a gun (being in possession of it) puts you more at risk of being shot.

There is enough data in the links above to establish that pretty clearly. 

 

I volunteer as a range officer at the local shooting range and have to deal with the entire spectrum of gun owners. I see some folks who are conscientious, careful and safe. Others have no business handling a gun. At all. 

 

The worst part is that the idiots usually think they are 'just great' and won't listen to anything. 

 

The risk for stupid people is likely higher than for careful and well trained owners. 

[gowlerk 1,914]

7 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The worst part is that the idiots usually think they are 'just great' and won't listen to anything. 

Yes, this is because they are like nearly all drivers, or skydivers for that matter. They are all sure they are above average in ability and that will be enough to keep them safe.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

1 hour ago, cjwilt said:

And no, I'm not more likely to die of gun violence simply because I own a gun. I've owned guns since before I was a teen and some how I've managed to live all these years peacefully owning guns without any violence. I guess I'm the one lucky person who is in this position.

You are trying to refute data with an anecdote.

You are bringing forward the same claim as the guy whose grandfather lived to 110 even though he smoked a pack a day and drank a bottle of bourbon every night. Or the guy who highlights the case of the runner who dropped dead during his run, so exercise clearly isn't healthy. Or the case of the president who believes we are all born with a predetermined number of heart beats during our lifetime.

 

[SkyDekker 1,123]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

We'd still be worse even if we did it your way,

But better then the situation you are in now. A situation where more school age children are shot dead per year than police officers and active duty military combined. (2,462 vs. approx. 1,144).

[kallend 1,625]

2 hours ago, cjwilt said:

Most of the properly trained owners will do fine. My friend who lives under strict gun laws in Belgium is required by law to practice every 2 or 3 months. Not such a bad gun law IMO.

 

 

Your posts remind me of the many now deceased, excellent skydivers (some even champions and record holders) who didn't need AAD's because they were SO good.  

What if you are a victim of Dunning-Kruger in your self assessment?