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GregAndrea

Racer by Jump Shack

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Which begs the question, what good is a it if the reserve can be tampered with and the seal remain intact?



The reserve seal is required by the FAA. It cannot prevent intentional tampering of any reserve system. It does prevent someone from opening and repacking the reserve on almost all containers.

Derek V

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Which begs the question, what good is a it if the reserve can be tampered with and the seal remain intact?




Seals are like locks. They deter honest people. They have never been designed to be completely tamper proof.

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gowlerk

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Which begs the question, what good is a it if the reserve can be tampered with and the seal remain intact?




Seals are like locks. They deter honest people. They have never been designed to be completely tamper proof.



Well, to be a bit pedantic, honest people don't need to be deterred. They're honest.

What locks do is make it harder for a thief. To make them go somewhere else where it's easier for them.

And I've had a seal break loose. The thread snapped at some point.

Nobody tampered with my reserve. I may or may not have made a few jumps with it that way and replaced it when I got home (didn't have the press with me that time).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I couldn't begin to tell you how many times John Sherman saved my stupid ass. I BASE jumped with Racers. And used it doing AFF Cert Courses. As you never know when that 2 or 3 seconds extra time John and Nancy crafted into that rig will save your life by basically making either container disappear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3WvlG6F2aI

NickDG :)
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chuckakers

What good is a it if the reserve can be tampered with and the seal remain intact?



Nowhere in the regulations does it say that the seal is there to make it harder to tamper with the rig. The seal just shows which rigger packed the rig.

Once a rig has left the loft, the person responsible for keeping it in an airworthy condition (and returning it for scheduled or unscheduled service) is the owner/user. The owner/user is responsible for the physical security required to prevent tampering, not the seal.

--Mark

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>Which begs the question, what good is a it if the reserve can be tampered with and the seal remain intact?

Seals aren't designed to show that a reserve hasn't been tampered with. It shows who packed the reserve last, and it shows that the rig was opened. That's it.

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- Size of company
Indeed a concern. Will anyone step up and take over when John and Nancy retire? I feel they need some entrepreneur who is willing to make a lot of changes, in design, marketing, and general optics, if the brand is to survive in the long term.


You bring up a valid point. What will happen to the Racer once John and Nancy have left? Look at the Reflex - nobody has shown any interest in picking it up. Not only does it have a poptop, but it adheres more to industry standards with a single pin reserve, Lolon cutaway cables, reserve closing loop that's not adjustable post-pack (to the best of my knowledge) and standard reserve freebag - all of the things that jumpers and riggers complain about on the Racer. And except for the poptop the container looks more like most rigs as well, particularly the midflap and main container configuration (which resembles a Javelin or Infinity), eliminating the "old look" that younger jumpers complain about on the Racer. I have to wonder about the Racer's chances of survival in the rig market after the John/Nancy era ends.
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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reserve closing loop that's not adjustable post-pack (to the best of my knowledge)




Good points, but this one is wrong. As it seems you suspected it might be.

I don't think that young jumpers don't buy Racers because of the "old look". They don't buy Racers because their instructors and other DZ leaders don't. People buy and use what they see others buying and using. And many take advice from the local rigger. Who probably is never going to recommend a Racer.

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I don't think that young jumpers don't buy Racers because of the "old look". They don't buy Racers because their instructors and other DZ leaders don't. People buy and use what they see others buying and using. And many take advice from the local rigger. Who probably is never going to recommend a Racer.


Actually, a lot of jumpers never get past the Racer's looks to give it serious consideration. Check out LeeroyJenkins' post of 1-6 post #92. I've also seen comments on other threads regarding the dated look of the Racer.
But your other comments I've already alluded to in my post of 1-5 post #84 when I mention that a lot of jumpers just buy what everyone else buys - the herd mentality. I think part of the reason is because it saves them a lot of research time. They figure that the majority can't be wrong. Or perhaps they're just afraid to be the first one on their DZ with a rig that no one else there is jumping.
Question: Is the Reflex's adjustable reserve loop adjustable without breaking the seal like the Racer's?
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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HPC

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I don't think that young jumpers don't buy Racers because of the "old look". They don't buy Racers because their instructors and other DZ leaders don't. People buy and use what they see others buying and using. And many take advice from the local rigger. Who probably is never going to recommend a Racer.


Actually, a lot of jumpers never get past the Racer's looks to give it serious consideration. Check out LeeroyJenkins' post of 1-6 post #92. I've also seen comments on other threads regarding the dated look of the Racer.
But your other comments I've already alluded to in my post of 1-5 post #84 when I mention that a lot of jumpers just buy what everyone else buys - the herd mentality. I think part of the reason is because it saves them a lot of research time. They figure that the majority can't be wrong. Or perhaps they're just afraid to be the first one on their DZ with a rig that no one else there is jumping.
Question: Is the Reflex's adjustable reserve loop adjustable without breaking the seal like the Racer's?



Yes. The cap is removable. It has elastic to secure it to the hard cap. The loop is then fully exposed and field adjustable.

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Question: Is the Reflex's adjustable reserve loop adjustable without breaking the seal like the Racer's?



Yes, and it is a little tricky to make. Instructions are available, but you must carefully follow them. There is a finger trapped section. If you make it too long it will rub where it should not. If you make it too short it will slowly slip and the cap will not stay snug. It has about a 1/4 inch tolerance. I generally use all of that amount on the long side so that it does not slip as easily. And remember to to use any silicon. But it will definitely need tightening as the pack job settles.

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HPC

Has anyone complained about the Reflex's adjustable loop the way they have the Racer's?



Not that I've seen. It would sort of be redundant now. They have not been made in at least 10 years. For the record, I have no particular problem with that aspect of either container.

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I'm looking at a pic of a custom Reflex that a (now-deceased) friend used to jump and it has the reversed risers - was this standard or an option on the Reflex?
What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right.

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billvon

...and it shows that the rig was opened.



That's the part I'm referring to. If a rig - like a Racer, apparently - can be opened and re-closed without breaking the seal, it's not a seal. It's just an identifying tag.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers

If a rig - like a Racer, apparently - can be opened and re-closed without breaking the seal, it's not a seal. It's just an identifying tag.



On Racers, the seal must be broken to open the rig. Jump Shack instructions call for a fixed closing loop, tacked to the top of the pilot chute, under the decorative cap. I suppose it would be possible for a really motivated person to untack the pilot chute cap and then disassemble the closing loop to allow it to float, but a person with that sort of time and skill could find other, easier ways to do stupid rigger tricks.

Interestingly, Airtec would prefer a floating loop on Racers, one that could slide over the top of the pilot chute instead of being tacked to it.. A previous poster noted that such a change would reduce the risk of having only one cutter fire.

--Mark

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mark

*** If a rig - like a Racer, apparently - can be opened and re-closed without breaking the seal, it's not a seal. It's just an identifying tag.



On Racers, the seal must be broken to open the rig. Jump Shack instructions call for a fixed closing loop, tacked to the top of the pilot chute, under the decorative cap. I suppose it would be possible for a really motivated person to untack the pilot chute cap and then disassemble the closing loop to allow it to float, but a person with that sort of time and skill could find other, easier ways to do stupid rigger tricks.

Interestingly, Airtec would prefer a floating loop on Racers, one that could slide over the top of the pilot chute instead of being tacked to it.. A previous poster noted that such a change would reduce the risk of having only one cutter fire.

--Mark

My bad. I looked back at the post I was originally replying to. The poster was referring to "2-pin continuous loop rigs like Softies and Nationals". My point stands. If a rig can be opened and closed without detection, I contend that the seal is just a tag identifying the rigger who closed it.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Hooknswoop

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If a rig can be opened and closed without detection, I contend that the seal is just a tag identifying the rigger who closed it.



You are correct.

Can you open your reserve and reclose it without breaking the seal?

Derek V



I was referring to this.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4906778#4906778
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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gowlerk

***Has anyone complained about the Reflex's adjustable loop the way they have the Racer's?



Not that I've seen. It would sort of be redundant now. They have not been made in at least 10 years. For the record, I have no particular problem with that aspect of either container.

The Reflex was a very good rig, with a company problem. IMHO - It was not any aspect of the design but the company response to a (potentially fatal) manufacturing flaw that turned the buyers away and subsequently killed the product/company. Its one of two example that come to mind where a sport skydiving company failed (and failed fast) due to its response to a problem, rather than the overall design of their product line.

As to the field adjustable loop, yes the Reflex did have one. And its the ONLY aspect I didn't like as the rigger (after I made sure my customer's grommets were seated correctly). I only packed one or two, but I KNEW/TRUSTED the customer and he agreed not to have it adjusted by anyone but myself. This is also when I came to understand that my signoff that the rig is airworthy is ONLY valid at that day/time... everything after that is up to the customer.

As to the seal...
I don't believe that either the Racer nor Reflex can be opened and reclosed without busting the seal, though as mentioned above there are some PEP's that can be. The seal is a good faith effort to indicate prior to deployment who the last rigger was to close the rig. There is no guarantee that it will be there after deployment. I believe that they keep the mostly honest, honest. I.e. the “helpful” individual that’s just going to open it to do some small thing and then close it up for ya. (the truly honest don’t need it to affect their behavior) There will always be those who choose to pencil-pack, seals haven't stopped that, but it makes them a little easier to catch. And if someone really wants to damage the system without leaving evidence, there mystery-writer's mind explodes with options.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Hooknswoop wrote:
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If a rig can be opened and closed without detection, I contend that the seal is just a tag identifying the rigger who closed it.

You are correct.

Can you open your reserve and reclose it without breaking the seal?

Derek V

I was referring to this.

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4906778#4906778



A couple of pilot bail out rigs can be opened and reclosed without breaking the seal, if you know what you are doing. That would be intentional tampering, something a reserve seal isn’t intended to defeat. Any rig is susceptible to intentional tampering, seal or no seal. It is a non-issue.

If the FAA didn’t require it, I wouldn’t put a seal on my rigs.

Derek V

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Hi Derek,

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If the FAA didn’t require it, I wouldn’t put a seal on my rigs.



I agree 100%.

As to tampering; it is easy to just remove the seal, do what you want, put another one on, flatten with a pair of pliers & scratch in the last rigger's 3-letter symbol.

Jerry Baumchen

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Derek,

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If the FAA didn’t require it, I wouldn’t put a seal on my rigs.



I agree 100%.

As to tampering; it is easy to just remove the seal, do what you want, put another one on, flatten with a pair of pliers & scratch in the last rigger's 3-letter symbol.

Jerry Baumchen




Or, just order a seal press. you can order the dies separately. With any # you ask for.

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skydiverek

***Secondly, there is another issue that has not been addressed in this thread yet. That is the use of thinly Teflon coated cutaway cables instead of the long proven Lolon coated cables originally speced for the 3 ring system. These have been known to have the coating crack and fail in critical situations. And there is no good reason to use them.



There was a fatality few years back caused by cracked red cables. They prevented cutaway. Parachute Labs changed the red cables do "pinkish" cables (less cracking). Not sure what cables were used in this accident.. Rip Bruce he was one of the good ones [:/]
i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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