airdvr 198 #1 February 20, 2017 http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/employees-across-u-s-fired-after-joining-day-without-immigrants-n722991 QuoteAt Ben's Kosher Delicatessen Restaurant & Caterers in Long Island, New York, 25 workers were fired Friday when they returned to work, according to Telemundo 47. Police escorted the workers from the restaurant — most of whom were undocumented and have worked there for years. This protest was stupid. It might have been more interesting had it been a Day Without Illegals. Still, I have to wonder how is the owner of Ben's not in hot water over having employed undocumented workers for years?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 February 20, 2017 airdvrStill, I have to wonder how is the owner of Ben's not in hot water over having employed undocumented workers for years? That particular argument has been brought up for decades. Honestly, I don't understand it either, except for the dirty little secret that undocumented workers are the secret sauce of a LOT of businesses around the country and most employers/law enforcement just give it a wink and a nod because it's good for business[/I]. It's one of the reasons ICE (traditionally) doesn't crack down on ALL undocumented workers -- typically just the violent criminal ones -- until this latest nonsense with Trump and company. Businesses don't want to lose their ability to hire labor at below legal wages and they can hire undocumented workers for below minimum wage because the undocumented workers are not likely to file any complaints with the government. This is not the fault of any one party, nor President, this has been an issue since the "official" end of slavery and the introduction of the minimum wages and worker protections.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,061 #3 February 20, 2017 Well, believe it or not... All applicants are supposed to fill out an I-9 form and present documentation of varyuing forms to prove citizenship, resident alien, etc. Then one is supposed to walk over to their computer and use the E-verify system which is a database using middleware to connect Homeland Security and SSA. Here's what E-verify does NOT do: E-Verify is not… a system that provides immigration status. See page 5 https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Verification/E-Verify/E-Verify_Native_Documents/e-verify-presentation.pdfNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 February 20, 2017 ...... It's one of the reasons ICE (traditionally) doesn't crack down on ALL undocumented workers -- typically just the violent criminal ones -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed! When I surveyed the issue 25 years ago, I quickly concluded that half the undocumented Latinos were deported directly from county jails. OTOH unscrupulous employers have always exploited the most recent wave of immigrants, be they slaves from Africa, indentured servants from Europe, Irishmen fleeing the Potatoe Famine, Somalis fleeing civil war, etc. Refugees fleeing to North America tend to be tougher, healthier, smarter, etc. than the poor besieged souls who remained in their homeland. Immigrants usually believe the American myth that "anyone can grow up to become the President." I have seen Spanish-speaking day-labourers in California "show up early, work hard all day and not steal tools." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #5 February 20, 2017 If the employee had the time off than I think legal remedies should be in order. But if an employee does not have the time off and if they elect to take the time off....why wouldn't the owner of the company have every right to fire the employee? It just appears that these articles are meant to flame the fires...Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #6 February 21, 2017 mirage62If the employee had the time off than I think legal remedies should be in order. But if an employee does not have the time off and if they elect to take the time off....why wouldn't the owner of the company have every right to fire the employee? It just appears that these articles are meant to flame the fires... Assuming the employer followed the proper steps, there is nothing wrong with an employer terminating employees. The questions remains, why aren't these employers being prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants in the first place? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #7 February 21, 2017 SkyDekker***If the employee had the time off than I think legal remedies should be in order. But if an employee does not have the time off and if they elect to take the time off....why wouldn't the owner of the company have every right to fire the employee? It just appears that these articles are meant to flame the fires... Assuming the employer followed the proper steps, there is nothing wrong with an employer terminating employees. The questions remains, why aren't these employers being prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants in the first place? One reason they are not being prosecuted is there is no solid way to prove workmans rights. That is what we have now is a system that says you have to hire leagues but no way to verify them for sure. Just what the system says. The company I work for screens as much as they can but it seems every year or so they get a notice to cut one loose because of imigration issues.. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #8 February 21, 2017 quade ***Still, I have to wonder how is the owner of Ben's not in hot water over having employed undocumented workers for years? That particular argument has been brought up for decades. Honestly, I don't understand it either, except for the dirty little secret that undocumented workers are the secret sauce of a LOT of businesses around the country and most employers/law enforcement just give it a wink and a nod because it's good for business[/I]. It's one of the reasons ICE (traditionally) doesn't crack down on ALL undocumented workers -- typically just the violent criminal ones -- until this latest nonsense with Trump and company. Businesses don't want to lose their ability to hire labor at below legal wages and they can hire undocumented workers for below minimum wage because the undocumented workers are not likely to file any complaints with the government. This is not the fault of any one party, nor President, this has been an issue since the "official" end of slavery and the introduction of the minimum wages and worker protections. The same can be said for H1B visas and unpaid internships. And laws that allow paying less than minimum wage if employees work on tips. All are loopholes that need to be closed.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #10 February 21, 2017 normiss What? Sorry fat fingers a phone and a few drinks. thought I proofread it good but obviously not. What I meant was. They are not being prosecuted as much because there is no good way to prove if they are legal to work. you can verify the ss# is valid but that no way verifies the worker. The company I work at screens them as best as he can but about once or twice a year he gets notice that one of them has bad forged or someone else's paperwork. And then he has to fire them. The owner truly tries to make sure they are legal to hire but the system makes that difficult. I hope that is clearer, I am on a pc now. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 913 #11 February 21, 2017 I like this "Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle'. "Illegal" undocumented workers are well recognized by every political party and business group. US workers won't pick fruit,produce and other agriculture field products. This entire area is a minefield for politicians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #12 February 21, 2017 Very clear, thanks. I had expected fingers as the culprit, mine get crazy sometimes too. The whole I-9 verification is silly, like many federal records requirements and processes. More theater than function. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #13 February 21, 2017 >They are not being prosecuted as much because there is no good way to prove if >they are legal to work. E-Verify is a free service of the DHS that allows you to quickly verify if someone is legal to work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #14 February 21, 2017 billvon>They are not being prosecuted as much because there is no good way to prove if >they are legal to work. E-Verify is a free service of the DHS that allows you to quickly verify if someone is legal to work. No it verifies if the paper work is in order it does not verify the person is who they say they are. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #15 February 21, 2017 >No it verifies if the paper work is in order it does not verify the person is who they >say they are. Correct - it verifies that their paperwork is in order and they are legal to work. The employer has to do the basic work of checking (say) a driver's license to see if they are really who they say they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 913 #16 February 21, 2017 billvon>No it verifies if the paper work is in order it does not verify the person is who they >say they are. Correct - it verifies that their paperwork is in order and they are legal to work. The employer has to do the basic work of checking (say) a driver's license to see if they are really who they say they are. ^^^^^^^^ An EO forcing the employer to be responsible for all expenses of deportation for any "Illegal" ....er undocumented worker in their employ. Would solve the problem of ICE, deportations, etc. tomorrow. But that would be met by howls from the US Chamber of Commerce, California farmers, etc. Best politically to play games and pander. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #17 February 21, 2017 billvon>No it verifies if the paper work is in order it does not verify the person is who they >say they are. Correct - it verifies that their paperwork is in order and they are legal to work. The employer has to do the basic work of checking (say) a driver's license to see if they are really who they say they are. Like drivers licenses have never been faked. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #18 February 21, 2017 >Like drivers licenses have never been faked. Yes, they can be faked. But at that point the crime is by the person using the forged license, not the employer. Right now most employers don't even ask, because they don't want to know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #19 February 21, 2017 billvon Right now most employers don't even ask, because they don't want to know. Your assuming there. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 913 #20 February 21, 2017 Perhaps trump was right. Even a quarter will land on its edge once every 10,000 tries. Of course this may not be enough to change the crime statistics in Sweden substantially. But here is some feed for the alt-right-white-bannon-trump,Royreader,Putin, et-al crowd. "STOCKHOLM — Residents in a northwestern suburb of Stockholm predominantly inhabited by immigrants clashed with police officers on Monday, two days after the president of the United States, Donald J. Trump, unleashed a vague but pointed critique of Sweden’s migration policies. About 20 to 30 masked men threw stones and other objects at police officers in the suburb, Rinkeby, after the police arrested a man on suspicion of dealing drugs. A police officer fired a warning shot, but the disturbances continued for several more hours, stretching into early Tuesday morning. A photojournalist was injured in the disturbances. The episode drew scrutiny worldwide because of President Trump’s assertions — based on a Fox News segment — that Sweden had experienced a surge in crime and violence as a result of taking in large numbers of refugees. Swedish officials have criticized his statements as exaggerations. Preliminary statistics do not show a major increase in crime from 2015, when the country processed a record 163,000 asylum applications, to 2016. Riots like the one in Rinkeby, officials said, are not unprecedented but are infrequent. Nonetheless, the disturbances in Rinkeby were seized upon by some people online as evidence of Mr. Trump’s claim. Rinkeby, an area of around 16,000 people, is overwhelmingly populated by residents with immigrant backgrounds — in particular, Somali and Arab among them — and has been the site of previous clashes between residents and the police. Right-wing media in the United States and elsewhere have insisted that Sweden is covering up evidence of migrant-related crimes — a claim officials in this prosperous Scandinavian nation, which has a long humanitarian tradition, have rejected. Lars Bystrom, a police spokesman, said police were summoned at 8:18 p.m. on Monday to the transit station in Rinkeby, about 7.2 miles northwest of Stockholm’s City Hall, after officers made a drug-related arrest and then were set upon by local residents. A police officer fired a live round of ammunition as a warning shot. “No one was hit, but it had the intended effect of clearing the scene so that police could make an arrest,” Officer Bystrom said. The disturbances did not end; the rioting intensified, with up to 70 people throwing stones and objects, before police finally got the situation under control around 12:15 a.m., he said. Asked whether there was enough of a police presence in Rinkeby, Officer Bystrom cited the district police chief, Niklas Andersson, in describing police resources in the area as more plentiful than ever. But Officer Bystrom also said that officials would continue to bolster security. Morning Briefing: Europe What you need to know to start your day, delivered to your inbox. Receive occasional updates and special offers for The New York Times's products and services. Patrik Derk, the district director for Rinkeby-Kista, the northernmost of the boroughs that make up the municipality of Stockholm, said it would be a mistake to see proof of Mr. Trump’s claims in the rioting. “This type of problem exists in most countries, even in the U.S.A.,” he said in a phone interview. “And we are managing these problems and will succeed with this. They’re complex problems.” Mr. Derk was hired in late 2015 to “make Rinkeby a better place to grow up and live in,” as he put it. He previously helped turn around the Hovsjo district of Sodertalje, a city southwest of Stockholm that, like Rinkeby, has a large population of low-income immigrants. “We created jobs through building development initiatives and training unemployed youth,” he said, adding that the efforts involved collaboration with the police and economic investments. “And that’s what we are trying to do here. Create a condition for the residents to live a good life in the area. I know it’s possible to change these things but it’s a long-term effort and these are difficult questions. We created a lot of jobs for youth. We built a new school. We worked with the criminals, and helped them to get away from that path.” Mr. Derk acknowledged that Rinkeby had big problems: “It is one of the more troubled areas in terms of school results, tight quarters, unemployment.” Benjamin Dousa, 24, an appointed member of a local board in Rinkeby that distributes public money for schools, social services, parks and recreation and elder care, offered a less sanguine view than Mr. Derk. Mr. Dousa, in an opinion essay for the newspaper Expressen, said that Mr. Trump’s critique had some merit. “A battered journalist, stones thrown at the police and stores that are being plundered, unfortunately, are not unusual occurrences where I live,” he said. “I hear the police helicopter every other day.” He said that in the neighborhood: “This type of criminality has become part of everyday life: On average, we have one outbreak of violence a month, a car fire every day and the most shootings with deadly outcomes in the country. Would this really be accepted where the prime minister lives?” https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/world/europe/stockholm-sweden-riots-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 198 #21 February 21, 2017 Wow...mega thread drift Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #22 February 21, 2017 >Your assuming there. Nope. Most employers don't even use e-verify to begin with. Even in states where it is required (Alabama, Arizona, Mississippi and South Carolina) compliance is less than 60%, and in the rest of the US, it is well below 50%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 913 #23 February 21, 2017 airdvr Wow...mega thread drift I didn't want to start a new thread and after looking back 20-30 I thought that this would be as good as any. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #24 February 21, 2017 If it's not worth the effort to check paperwork before hiring someone (which is a significant expense in most businesses), why is it worth the effort to check them when someone is voting? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 4 #25 February 21, 2017 wmw999If it's not worth the effort to check paperwork before hiring someone (which is a significant expense in most businesses), why is it worth the effort to check them when someone is voting? Wendy P. Where did I say either of those things? Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
