Another mass shooting...

[normiss 622]

It would behoove you to recall the Smith and Wesson issue with the NPR during the first Clinton's presidency.
NRA and Wayne LaPierre - idiots.
This was when I cancelled my NRA membership. I've done the free one year thing a time or two in the effort to show support over an issue, but I'm through with the NRA. IMO, they do NOT have the gun enthusiasts interests at heart.

[Anvilbrother 0]

I bailed on them when I kept getting 10 emails a day to donate to this or that, or go to this web store and buy something. I paid my membership fuck off.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[normiss 622]

I also have no use for the ILA.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

I also have no use for the ILA.

I have much angst for the qed.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

I guess I'm more of a Dapper Dan man.
God dammit.

[jbscout2002 1]

Fun Facts:

There are an "estimated" 80 million gun owners in the U.S.
In 2014, there were 92,251,000 registered voters in the U.S. (census.gov)

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp was used for the following. copy/paste is used to save time

Based on surveys, as of 2010, 40-45% of households had firearms (probably a low number because gun owners get paranoid about those surveys and say they don't have any guns)

A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."

Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.

Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.

A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.


A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

Of 1,662 murders committed in New York City during 2003-2005, more than 90% were committed by people with criminal records.

During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.

In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.
-

Quote

2000: 58 Chinese people suffocated to death in a shipping container en route to the UK
• 2002: 172 homicides reported when Dr. Harold Shipman was exposed for killing his patients
• 2003: 20 cockle pickers drowned resulting in manslaughter charges
• 2005: 52 people killed in the July 7th London subway/bus bombings

Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.

Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 25% lower.

Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.

In 2005 (during hand gun ban), 96% of the firearm murder victims in Chicago were killed with handguns.


* Under federal law:
• It is illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in prison for the following people to receive, possess, or transport any firearm or ammunition:
someone convicted of or under indictment for a felony punishable by more than one year in prison, someone convicted of a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years in prison, a fugitive from justice, an unlawful user of any controlled substance, someone who has been ruled as mentally defective or has been committed to any mental institution, an illegal alien, someone dishonorably discharged from the military, someone who has renounced his or her U.S. citizenship, someone subject to certain restraining orders, or someone convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor.
• It is illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in prison to sell or transfer any firearm or ammunition to someone while "knowing" or having "reasonable cause to believe" this person falls into any of the prohibited categories listed above.
• It is illegal to "engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms" without a federal license to do so.
• It is illegal for any federally licensed firearms business to sell or transfer any firearm without first conducting a background check to see if the buyer/recipient falls into any of the prohibited categories listed above.
• It is illegal for anyone except a federally licensed firearms business to sell, buy, trade, or transfer a firearm across state lines.

* Under federal law, private individuals are not required to a conduct a background check before selling or transferring a firearm to someone who lives in the same state, but it is illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in prison for a private individual to sell or transfer a firearm while "knowing" or having "reasonable cause to believe" that the recipient falls into one of the prohibited categories above.

Some states such as California require background checks for all firearms transactions, including those conducted between private individuals.

A 1997 U.S. Justice Department survey of 14,285 state prison inmates found that among those inmates who carried a firearm during the offense for which they were sent to jail, 0.7% obtained the firearm at a gun show, 1% at a flea market, 3.8% from a pawn shop, 8.3% from a retail store, 39.2% through an illegal/street source, and 39.6% through family or friends (straw purchase, which is illegal).

Each state has its own laws regarding right-to-carry and generally falls into one of three main categories:
1) "shall-issue" states, where concealed carry permits are issued to all qualified applicants
2) "may-issue" states, where applicants must often present a reason for carrying a firearm to an issuing authority, who then decides based on his or her discretion whether the applicant will receive a permit
3) "no-issue" states, where concealed carry is generally forbidden

As of 2012, 40 states were "shall-issue"

In right-to-carry states, the violent crime rate is 24% lower than the rest of the U.S., the murder rate is 28% lower, and the robbery rate is 50% lower.

On October 1, 1987, Florida's right-to-carry law became effective.
This law requires that concealed carry licensees be 21 years of age or older, have clean criminal/mental health records, and complete a firearms safety/training course.

As of July 31, 2010, Florida has issued 1,825,143 permits and has 746,430 active licensees, constituting roughly 5.4% of the state's population that is 21 years of age or older.

Since the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law, the Florida murder rate has averaged 36% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 15% lower.

From the outset of the Florida right-to-carry law through July 31, 2010, Florida has revoked 5,674 or 0.3% of all issued permits. 168 of these were due to crimes committed with a firearm.

Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 28% lower.

Since the outset of the Michigan right-to-carry law, the Michigan murder rate has averaged 4% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 2% lower.

In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.

In the 2008 election cycle, gun rights groups donated $2,397,743 to federal candidates, equating to about 1% of the money donated by lawyers/law firms.

In the 2008, election cycle, gun control groups donated $57,919 to federal candidates, equating to about 2% of the money donated by gun rights groups.

The Bill of Rights includes two Amendments other than the Second that use the phrase "right of the people":

Amendment 1: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Amendment 4: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

- Thus based on the argument the the 2nd Amendment applies to the right of the States to maintain a National Guard force, this would also mean that it is only the state and federal government, and not individual citizens, who have any protections guaranteed under the 1st and 4th Amendments.

Enjoy.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>I see your point, but point number 2 is dancing with the devil. Stir up enough come scare
>and there will be national gun reform, eve if by executive order.

Well, it's been working for them so far. Not the way I would go - as you say, there's a huge threat of a backlash. But so far so good (for the NRA at least.)


>The Obama grab your guns one, NRA didn't even have to say anything with that.

Yet they did - and launched a campaign to make sure that as many people heard it as possible. That sort of fearmongering translated directly into cash for the NRA. One gun manufacturer even pledged to give the NRA $$ for every gun they sold as a result of this campaign.

===============
Obama Pushing For 'Largest Gun Grab In American History': NRA
July 27, 2015

The Obama administration is pushing to ban Social Security beneficiaries from owning guns if they lack the mental capacity to manage their own disability payments — a move the NRA is calling the “largest gun grab in American history.”
http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/07/28/obama-pushing-largest-gun-grab-american-history-nra
=================
NRA Warns Of Obama’s Backdoor Gun Grab

Catherine Mortensen, NRA spokeswoman states: “We are worried about an end-run around Congress…Barack Obama or a future anti-gun president could use ATT and international norms compliance to rationalize enacting gun control policies through executive actions, especially in the import and export realms,” according to The Blaze.

As of Christmas Eve of this year, the treaty is set to be effective. Regulations within the treaty cover everything from importing and exporting military arms of various kinds to establishing a “national control system, including a national control list”. Anyone remember one of the early chapters in the Communist Manifesto?

Mortensen continues, this treaty is a “very real threat” to the Second Amendment and an “attempt by other countries, including some despotic regimes, to try and infringe on our constitutional rights.” The influence some Democrat party leaders permit the U.N. to assert over public policy is disconcerting. It is as if international approval supersedes the best interest of citizens of our own country.
http://mrconservative.com/2014/11/52578-nra-warns-of-obamas-backdoor-gun-grab/
================

Well at least the NRA makes its money telling the truth.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

Plagiarist!!!!!

@normiss, that was great.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,404]

>Well at least the NRA makes its money telling the truth.

Right. They support truth-tellers like Bruce Abramski. When did Obama ban all guns, again?

[kallend 1,634]

jbscout2002

***and if you want to have fun translating :
regarding "carrying weapons"

Quote

La personne souhaitant porter son arme dans des lieux accessibles au public (par ex. dans la rue) doit posséder un permis de port d'armes. Le transport d'une arme par exemple pour participer à une manifestation de tir n'est pas considéré comme un port d'armes.

En plus de remplir les conditions requises pour l'acquisition d'une arme, la personne souhaitant obtenir un permis de port d'armes doit établir de façon plausible qu’elle a besoin d’une arme pour se protéger ou pour protéger des tiers ou des choses contre un danger tangible. Elle doit en outre passer un examen attestant qu'elle est capable de manier une arme et qu'elle connaît les dispositions légales en matière d'utilisation d'armes.

from https://www.fedpol.admin.ch/fedpol/fr/home/sicherheit/waffen/faq.html

we make a big differnce between "transporting a weapon" and "carrying a weapon".
Gun holder goes hunting or shooting at the range : transport, no question asked.
Gun holder carries weapon for self defense/protection : needs to pass an exam etc etc etc...

This is exactly the same in the U.S.

To purchase, you do an application, background check, and show photo ID.




Unless you do it privately (including from an individual as opposed to a licensed dealer) at a gun show in 32 states).

And, of course NO record is kept anyway. Unlike Switzerland.

Quote

Then you can "transport" that gun to the range for target practice, or to the woods to go hunting. State laws vary, but generally, it must be unloaded, in plain view, and the ammo stored separately, such as gun in the car, ammo in trunk.

A CCW requires state and federal background checks, passport photo, finger printing, a CCW class, then some states have additional requirements such as character references and providing a written statement to your local head of law enforcement which may be either the Sheriff or Chief of Police depending on where you live, that explains why you are requesting the CCW.

But no permit is required if you don't want a CCW. Unlike Switzerland.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jbscout2002 1]

kallend

******and if you want to have fun translating :
regarding "carrying weapons"

Quote

La personne souhaitant porter son arme dans des lieux accessibles au public (par ex. dans la rue) doit posséder un permis de port d'armes. Le transport d'une arme par exemple pour participer à une manifestation de tir n'est pas considéré comme un port d'armes.

En plus de remplir les conditions requises pour l'acquisition d'une arme, la personne souhaitant obtenir un permis de port d'armes doit établir de façon plausible qu’elle a besoin d’une arme pour se protéger ou pour protéger des tiers ou des choses contre un danger tangible. Elle doit en outre passer un examen attestant qu'elle est capable de manier une arme et qu'elle connaît les dispositions légales en matière d'utilisation d'armes.

from https://www.fedpol.admin.ch/fedpol/fr/home/sicherheit/waffen/faq.html

we make a big differnce between "transporting a weapon" and "carrying a weapon".
Gun holder goes hunting or shooting at the range : transport, no question asked.
Gun holder carries weapon for self defense/protection : needs to pass an exam etc etc etc...

This is exactly the same in the U.S.

To purchase, you do an application, background check, and show photo ID.




Unless you do it privately (including from an individual as opposed to a licensed dealer) at a gun show in 32 states).

And, of course NO record is kept anyway. Unlike Switzerland.

Quote

Then you can "transport" that gun to the range for target practice, or to the woods to go hunting. State laws vary, but generally, it must be unloaded, in plain view, and the ammo stored separately, such as gun in the car, ammo in trunk.

A CCW requires state and federal background checks, passport photo, finger printing, a CCW class, then some states have additional requirements such as character references and providing a written statement to your local head of law enforcement which may be either the Sheriff or Chief of Police depending on where you live, that explains why you are requesting the CCW.

But no permit is required if you don't want a CCW. Unlike Switzerland.

Many states now require private firearm sales to go through a licensed deal, where a mandatory background check is completed, to include at gun shows.

Records are in fact kept. There is a records keeping requirement on all gun sales from licensed dealers. These records are not submitted to a national database for registry purposes, however, the BATF&E can trace any firearm originating from a legal sale within the U.S.

Several states do in fact require a license to own a firearm. This is not a CCW, but an ownership license.

So, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Do some research before you throw your random BS out there. Just like in your post number 243 where you proclaimed how the enactment of CCW led to higher murder rates in Chicago, to wit, I produced several credible sources showing exactly the opposite.

[jbscout2002 1]

Or better yet, don't do research. Continue to regurgitate whatever gun control misinformation helps you sleep better at night. It never passes in Congress because Americans simply don't support it.

It's a beautiful concept. If you don't support firearms in America, don't buy one. Withhold your financial support from the industry by being a rebel and boycotting them.

Please excuse me from the table though. I'm going to step away so you can continue to convince yourself that that with a little common sense legislation, our country will suddenly become a utopian Pandora that even Europe will envy.

[christelsabine 1]

jbscout2002

....
If you don't support firearms in America, don't buy one. Withhold your financial support from the industry by being a rebel and boycotting them.

What a BS, who is *them*?

All you did here was product placement. You used this platform for advertisement.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jbscout2002 1]

christelsabine

***
....
If you don't support firearms in America, don't buy one. Withhold your financial support from the industry by being a rebel and boycotting them.

What a BS, who is *them*?

All you did here was product placement. You used this platform for advertisement.

Actually all I've done is waste my time and take up space in DZ.com storage space.

I don't have to convince gun control advocates to "see it my way". They have to convince the 80 million of us who own guns, along with the few who don't, but still believe in the right to.

Less than 92.5 million registered voters. I don't know how much of that voting pool is represented by us 80 million, but I do know we are adamant about getting out there and voting for our guns

Gun control advocates have this little battle cry, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In voting terms, 80 million is the many and 12.5 million is the few, so good luck.

[SkyDekker 1,129]

Quote

Please excuse me from the table though. I'm going to step away so you can continue to convince yourself that that with a little common sense legislation, our country will suddenly become a utopian Pandora that even Europe will envy.

Except nobody is suggesting that.

But then it is hard to argue with somebody who enjoys a mass shooting or two per month.

(of course, you didn't say that, but then that doesn't appear to be an issue for you)

[normiss 622]

I've never had the privilege of voting on laws, how do WE do that?

[billvon 2,404]

>Or better yet, don't do research. Continue to regurgitate whatever gun
>control misinformation helps you sleep better at night.

There's definitely a lot of misinformation around. Unfortunately attempts to get more information are being blocked by the NRA, who fears the results of such information being made public.

=========================
Quietly, Congress extends a ban on CDC research on gun violence

July 02, 2015 · 8:00 AM EDT
Jim Young/Reuters

In the immediate aftermath of the massacre in Charleston, South Carolina, the US House of Representatives Appropriations Committee quietly rejected an amendment that would have allowed the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to study the underlying causes of gun violence.

Though gun violence and gun control has again come to the forefront of the American conversation, most recently after the mass killings at an Oregon community college last week, prohibition on gun research goes back decades.

Dr. Fred Rivara, a professor of Pediatrics and Epidemiology at the University of Washington at Seattle Children's Hospital, has been involved with injury research for 30 years. He was part of a team that researched gun violence back in the 1990s and personally saw the chilling effects of the NRA’s lobbying arm. Rivara says that the NRA accused the CDC of trying to use science to promote gun control.

“As a result of that, many, many people stopped doing gun research, [and] the number of publications on firearm violence decreased dramatically," he told The Takeaway in April. "It was really chilling in terms of our ability to conduct research on this very important problem.”

In 2013, some 34,000 Americans died from gunshot wounds. So Takeaway Washington Correspondent Todd Zwillich decided to ask House Speaker John Boehner why his party is trying to block research on gun violence.

. . .

But does the CDC research blame the public health issue of gun violence on the weapons themselves?

“The original concern from the National Rifle Association back in 1996, which Dr. Rivara mentioned, made that very implication,” says Zwillich. “The NRA complained to Congress that the CDC was using the results of its research to essentially advocate for gun control. They called it propaganda. And back at that time, Congress slashed the CDC’s funding by the exact amount that was used for gun-related public health research.”

Rivara and his team discovered that having a gun in the home is associated with a threefold increase in the risk of a homicide — they released this information in a series of peer-reviewed articles that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine. The CDC both funded Rivara’s original research and stood by the findings.

But after Congress seemingly retaliated against the CDC for publishing Rivara’s findings, Zwillich says researchers with the agency have shied away from conducting gun research.
===================

[kallend 1,634]

IF this is true (and I've only seen the one source) it seems to be a duplicate of the Lanza household with paranoid Mom raising a psycho kid.

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-mom-ore-shooter-stockpiled-guns-article-1.2384460

I emphasize - NOT fact checked.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,390]

Well, now we know where he got all the guns: Mom.
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/05/oregon_shooters_mother_was_an_avid_gun_enthusiast_who_stockpiled_weapons_for_fear_of_confiscation/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kallend 1,634]

ryoder

Well, now we know where he got all the guns: Mom.
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/05/oregon_shooters_mother_was_an_avid_gun_enthusiast_who_stockpiled_weapons_for_fear_of_confiscation/

Not sure if that's a source independent of the one I linked.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,390]

I don't see how any new gun laws could make any difference,
unless we disqualify any mother who has a mentally-off kid.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>Well at least the NRA makes its money telling the truth.

Right. They support truth-tellers like Bruce Abramski. When did Obama ban all guns, again?

So you're claiming his failure as a point to support you? Now that's funny. But least the NRA tells truth better than the warmist

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tikl68 6]

So what makes the difference between having a country with lots of guns and close to no gun violence and another country with lots ofguns and lots of violence?

My take on that is lots of young people inner city mostly, that for one reason or another are not being raised by parents that are teaching them decent values or to value and respect life nor are they taught to deal with issues with out using violence. So many young people whether they have parents or not, see violence being promoted/glamourized more than ever, on tv, you tube and in music.

I have watched seveal episodes on "History channel" of gangland and allways hear the young gang bangers say how no one was there for them the gang is my family, or you hear a young banger boasting how his older brother, or both of his uncles are gang bangers and i want to be like them and it is excepted by these family members.

The decency and fabric of society in the US compared to Switzerland is balck and white, and is part of the problem IMO.

There was a time not so long ago that some one looking at you was not taken as a reason to go get a gun and shoot them, or to kill some innocent person/cop in order to be come part of a "gang", but if you did have an issue with some one and you feel like violence was the only solution, I remember many a fist fight where all anybody suffered was a fat lip or a bloody nose.

This not the only crack in this whole issue but just one of the components.

I am all for background checks, and a lot of other hoops I have to jump thru but then again I am a law abiding citizen that follows the rules, and is not a felon, and went thru the back ground check, and did the ten day wait period(mandatory for CA where I live) and register my guns, and dont sell them with out having a person with an FFL present.

Oh and tkhayes you dont know where I was born, and its not like I had a choice in the matter, but If I dont like something I dont complain about it. I try to change it and if I cant than I will move away from it, but I am not the one complaining about the gun issues here you are. Try to be part of the solution not the problem.

And that was not plaggerized, it is a saying my father has always told. me

[normiss 622]

In which mass shooting incident were there any gang members involved?
I don't recall a single one.

[piisfish 135]

normiss

I've never had the privilege of voting on laws, how do WE do that?

come to Switzerland

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM