Planned Parenthood and the term "slippery slope" .

[wmw999 2,129]

Well, actually, it was Harris County, but it does have a nice conservative district attorney. She's the widow of the previous one. The state of Texas is continuing its investigation, let by the under-indictment attorney general

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,635]

And a federal court weighs in:

www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/business/federal-judge-orders-abortion-foes-not-to-release-secretly-filmed-videos.html?_r=0

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tonyhays 86]

And....the Republican war on women continues.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/defunding-planned-parenthood-leads-increase-low-income-births-texas

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Coreeece 2]

tonyhays

And....the Republican war on women continues.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/defunding-planned-parenthood-leads-increase-low-income-births-texas

"an increase in the number of babies born"

Wow, a war that promotes life rather than destroying it - A baby count rather than a body count - who'da thunk it?

Quote

"State legislation excluding Planned Parenthood-affiliated clinics from access to Medicaid funding in Texas has resulted in a decrease in the level of birth control care received by low-income women attending these centers. This, in turn, has caused an increase in the number of babies born to poorer women who had sought these services."

It's interesting how the article puts such an emphasis on poverty, as if poor women aren't worthy of childbearing. It's like they're trying to remind fiscals that they'll have to take care of these babies for the next 18 years.

Personally, I'd like to see evidence that these women sought out birth control/abortion services for these unwanted pregnancies - and then actually being denied those services.

Perhaps in 20 years we could ask these unwanted children how they feel about the state looking out for their best interest and protecting them from their sick, irresponsible mothers who would've otherwise had them killed.

We deny the rights to U.S citizens everyday based on bad behavior and irresponsible decisions - why should abortion be any different? I know women who've had 1, 2 , 3, 4, no, 5 abortions. FIVE. Five abortions - three of which were late term. At what point do we have the right to say that you can't fucking do this anymore!

Part of me feels that some women, especially repeat offenders should be forced to go to term and then have their baby placed in child protective services. . .I'm tired of all your bullshit.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,406]

>Part of me feels that some women, especially repeat offenders should be
>forced to go to term and then have their baby placed in child protective services.

And people wonder why there is a perceived "war on women" coming from the right . . .

[Coreeece 2]

Ya, just ignore the context as usual - why address the more challenging parts of the post, eh?

Why shouldn't privacy/abortions rights be treated as other rights? If you abuse it, you lose it.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,406]

>Why shouldn't privacy/abortions rights be treated as other rights? If you
>abuse it, you lose it.

Agreed. If you are a doctor who kills women who go to get abortions through your negligence, then you should be jailed and lose your right to practice medicine.

But a woman who avails herself of legal abortions is not "abusing" her rights, any more than you are "abusing" your right to free speech by speaking out against abortion using angry rhetoric and profanity. (At least I assume you think you shouldn't lose your right to free speech for those reasons.)

[Coreeece 2]

That's fine, so you think that a woman should be able to use abortion as birth control. She can have 5 terminated pregnancies, three of which were late term - and that's ok with you - Fine.

I've known fathers that lost their parental rights over far more trivial issues.

If you're an irresponsible parent, then the state has the right to take your kids from you.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[ibx 2]

Quote

That's fine, so you think that a woman should be able to use abortion as birth control. She can have 5 terminated pregnancies, three of which were late term - and that's ok with you - Fine.

FETUS != HUMAN.

As soon as you stop arguing with complete false equivalency maybe progress can be made.

[billvon 2,406]

>That's fine, so you think that a woman should be able to use abortion as birth control.

No, I don't think she should. But that's her decision, not mine (or yours.)

Similarly, I don't think you should stand around Planned Parenthood centers and scream at women going in. But that's your right should you choose to exercise it.

> She can have 5 terminated pregnancies, three of which were late term - and that's ok with you - Fine.

No, it's not fine with me.

>If you're an irresponsible parent, then the state has the right to take your kids from you.

Well, you have to be criminally irresponsible. You don't lose your kids just because you can never remember to pay your credit card bills.

[tkhayes 129]

Quote

It's interesting how the article puts such an emphasis on poverty, as if poor women aren't worthy of childbearing.

It has nothing to do with their 'worthiness' - it has to do with rights and choice, but nice try at changing the focus.

Quote

Personally, I'd like to see evidence that these women sought out birth control/abortion services for these unwanted pregnancies - and then actually being denied those services.

Personally, I'd like to see evidence that the MEN involved in the pregnancy sought out birth control services for these unwanted pregnancies - and then actually being denied those services.

Quote

I know women who've had 1, 2 , 3, 4, no, 5 abortions. FIVE. Five abortions - three of which were late term. At what point do we have the right to say that you can't fucking do this anymore!

I know overweight and unhealthy MEN who've had 1, 2 , 3, 4, no, 5 abortions visits to the doctor for obesity and diabetes. FIVE. Five abortions times!! At what point do we have the right to say that you can't fucking do this anymore!

Quote

Part of me feels that some women, especially repeat offenders should be forced to go to term and then have their baby placed in child protective services. . .I'm tired of all your bullshit.

Part of me feels that some MEN, especially repeat offenders should be forced to go to term be healthy. . .I'm tired of all your bullshit.


Your comments are truly ignorant and neanderthal....but at least we know where you stand. No wonder women have rights upheld by the Supreme Court with the caveman attitudes that apparently still exist in the country today.

[Coreeece 2]

tkhayes

Your comments are truly ignorant and neanderthal....

Ya, right - women are off destroying their own offspring to preserve their lifestyle and increase their chances of survival, and I'm the neanderthal - go figure.

Infanticide goes all the way back to neolithic times - and in some religious societies, women were considered a burden to society and a threat to survival, so they often killed female infants. Today however, we're apparently more inclusive and less misogynistic when it comes to the selfish destruction of our offspring.

Of course, traditional infanticide is illegal, but we have a found a loophole allowing us administer a lethal injection into the offspring and then rip it from the womb just weeks before it's born - because, you know - that's more humanistic.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

>That's fine, so you think that a woman should be able to use abortion as birth control.

No, I don't think she should. But that's her decision, not mine (or yours.)

Ok, I get it - I do. My posting history on this subject has had more to do with ridiculing abortion and encouraging women to give birth, rather than forcing them to. I'll admit that my last comment in post 979 was more or less hyperbolic bullshit - ridiculous, impractical - The thought popped into my head and I just threw it out there.

Overall, I believe we need to do everything we can to provide women with access to birth control and help prevent pregnancy. If they get pregnant we do everything we can to encourage and support them - and - their child.

What I find deeply disturbing is that abortion today almost seems to be encouraged while those against it are vilified. If you're not ok with abortion then why not ridicule it like everything else you disagree with in these forums? You can be pro-choice and still have an influential voice that encourages life. That's how society self governs - through public opinion.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[DanG 1]

Quote

Overall, I believe we need to do everything we can to provide women with access to birth control and help prevent pregnancy.

Yeah, like funding Planned Parenthood.

- Dan G

[Coreeece 2]

DanG

Quote

Overall, I believe we need to do everything we can to provide women with access to birth control and help prevent pregnancy.

Yeah, like funding Planned Parenthood.

I was going to mention that in my post, but didn't want to be too long winded. Personally, I think women should be able to walk in anywhere and get the birth control they need, whether it's some hospital, private facility, after hours clinic, PP wherever. They should even be able to pick up the phone and have the doc call in a script to CVS without a doctors visit.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[wmw999 2,129]

Do you see a difference between early abortion and late abortion? I'm asking honestly, not trying to set you up. I know I do; I think late abortion (post 24 weeks or so, and could be talked down to 20) is there to address non-birth-control needs. I do include preventing the further carrying and birth of non-life-compatible birth defects (eg anencephaly, not things like Downs Syndrome). I also include life-threatening pre eclampsia, an even the need for chemotherapy if an aggressive cancer is found.
I also see an early abortion as a sign of failure, either of planning or of birth control, but one that is as addressable as failures such as getting a ticket. Yes. When you consider that miscarriages up to about 3-4 months are just not considered to be the same as losing a born infant across most of the US, I'm not sure I'm alone here.

Is it the fact that it's the woman deciding that makes early abortion so much worse than a miscarriage? If someone doesn't believe in God, do they still have to "respect God's will?"

I also think birth control should be freely available. In addition, education about it is just as important in schools as education about guns and budgeting and civics. And I think those are all important. Not a lot is needed; not a semester on each, but a "being a responsible grownup" class would be good as a level set.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,406]

Quote

Overall, I believe we need to do everything we can to provide women with access to birth control and help prevent pregnancy. If they get pregnant we do everything we can to encourage and support them - and - their child.

I agree; I think the same thing.

Quote

What I find deeply disturbing is that abortion today almost seems to be encouraged while those against it are vilified.

I don't think people who are against abortion are vilified. I think people who want to _outlaw_ it are somewhat vilified, often by women - because they are seen as people who seek to deny women rights.

And of course the people who attack women going to abortion clinics - and who go on shooting and bombing sprees - are quite rightly vilified. However, they are a very small minority of people within the pro-life movement, just as people who think abortion is a great method of birth control, and encourage it for fun, are a small minority within the pro-choice movement.

Quote

You can be pro-choice and still have an influential voice that encourages life. That's how society self governs - through public opinion.

Agreed - as can the pro-choice people.

[Coreeece 2]

wmw999

Do you see a difference between early abortion and late abortion?

Pro-lifers tend to start their arguments with the worst case scenario - like a 25 year old promiscuous lush whose irresponsibility and mindless procrastination have led to a late-term abortion.

Pro-choicers tend to start their argument with less offensive scenarios - like the responsible 40+ year old whose birth control failed and promptly has an abortion due to the increased health risks and/or because she's already did her time mothering a litter.

I find the former scenario much more offensive.

wmw999

Is it the fact that it's the woman deciding that makes early abortion so much worse than a miscarriage.

I suppose it's the culpability that makes it more offensive - like a car accident caused by a drunk driver vs. an epileptic.

wmw999

If someone doesn't believe in God, do they still have to "respect God's will?"

Do they?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[headoverheels 291]

Coreeece

***If someone doesn't believe in God, do they still have to "respect God's will?"

Do they?

Only if enforced by the Taliban.

[tkhayes 129]

Quote

Pro-lifers tend to start their arguments with the worst case scenario - like a 25 year old promiscuous lush whose irresponsibility and mindless procrastination have led to a late-term abortion.

When i read your previous posts just a few back -"I know women that have had 1, 2, 3....etc", I see you as being just as guilty at posting the worst case scenarios for your argument as well.

Quote

I find the former scenario much more offensive.

And that certainly makes you look 'offensive' as well.

I look forward to your letters to Congress asking to continue funding PP for birth control and all those things that you say you 'support'. I am not holding my breath that your actions actually support what you say you 'believe'.

[Coreeece 2]

tkhayes

Quote

Pro-lifers tend to start their arguments with the worst case scenario - like a 25 year old promiscuous lush whose irresponsibility and mindless procrastination have led to a late-term abortion.

When i read your previous posts just a few back -"I know women that have had 1, 2, 3....etc", I see you as being just as guilty at posting the worst case scenarios for your argument as well.

Ya, so what?

tkhayes

Quote

I find the former scenario much more offensive.

And that certainly makes you look 'offensive' as well.

What's offensive is a woman having 3 late term abortions due to her debauchery, not the actually posting or discussion of such a "worst case" scenario.

tkhayes

I look forward to your letters to Congress asking to continue funding PP for birth control and all those things that you say you 'support'. I am not holding my breath that your actions actually support what you say you 'believe'.

Just because I'm not some fanatical nutcase that protests and writes nasty letters to congress doesn't mean that I don't support birth control. Contraception is already there for those that want it - especially since the medicaid expansion. We could certainly make it more accessible, but it's there nonetheless.

Even if we gave women vouchers to buy OTC birth control at the local party store, many still wouldn't take advantage of it. You can lead a horse to water and all that. At some point it always comes down to sex education and personal responsibility - have you sent letters to congress about that?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[tkhayes 129]

Quote

Ya, so what?

It makes you paradoxical at best and hypocritical at worst and does little for your cause.

Quote

What's offensive is a woman having 3 late term abortions due to her debauchery, not the actually posting or discussion of such a "worst case" scenario.

late term abortions are not a statistical issue actually. It is kind of like people who are all for voter suppression seemingly stating that it is Ok to ban many voters for the actions of a few.

Late term abortions are already 'banned' in most states in the USA unless the health of the woman is in danger. What you are complaining about is ALREADY regulated. And if you are looking for 'absolutes' in the world, well, good luck.

Quote

Even if we gave women vouchers to buy OTC birth control at the local party store, many still wouldn't take advantage of it. You can lead a horse to water and all that. At some point it always comes down to sex education and personal responsibility - have you sent letters to congress about that?

Why yes I have....but you did indicate whether you have yet. I am willing to bet that if the govt passed legislation to ban all abortions outright, shut down all PP funding and remove all forms of birth control from regular availability as well as removing sex education that you would simply not stand in the way of those measures for the simple fact that you are in favor of the abortion ban. Everything else? Collateral damage.

This is the danger than you 'extremists' put out there

added in edit: collateral damage example, but of course even poor women should have no problem with having babies right? Or getting easy access to birth control right? Or easy access to sex education right? I mean if they are not smart enough to take 'personal responsibility', then we should demand abstinence right? I guess they deserve to be poor and have too many kids..... I guess we might as well blame them for being poor just like we blame women for being raped. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/05/after-planned-parenthood-closures-poor-women-started-having-more-babies/

[gowlerk 1,915]

Quote

What's offensive is a woman having 3 late term abortions due to her debauchery

This sort of judgement by outsiders is what the part of what the "Right to Privacy" is all about. It actually borders on misogyny.

1 Debauchery is not illegal, or even wrong.

2 It takes two to debauch.

You are entitled to have an opinion about anyone's morals I suppose. But that opinion has no bearing on their rights. Depending just exactly what you mean by "late term" I doubt if any woman in her right mind would use it for birth control. And if she is not in her right mind you or anyone else is not allowed to punish her for her moral shortcomings.

Look after your own morals. I know I could improve, you probably could too.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

tkhayes

Quote

Ya, so what?

It makes you paradoxical at best and hypocritical at worst and does little for your cause.

How so? Please explain.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[tkhayes 129]

Coreeece

***

Quote

Ya, so what?

It makes you paradoxical at best and hypocritical at worst and does little for your cause.

How so? Please explain.

you indicated that a given worst-case scenario was offensive to you yet posted your own worst case scenarios as justification for your stance on abortion. That is paradox. Hypocrisy comes when you actually act on it rather than just words..