Syria

[ryoder 1,390]

lawrocket

Vladimir "I'm your huckleberry" Putin...

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DanG 1]

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... (and the race card is not an option against that opponent).

Unnecessary BS aside. I thought you were above that.

- Dan G

[shropshire 0]

lawrocket

If the President does something, he's fucked. If he doesn't do anything, he's fucked.

Well, let's look at this for a moment .. Why is he fucked either way? .. As you suggest, it's because, as politicians are wont to do, he Engaged Gob before Brain ..... ejut!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Gravitymaster 0]

Southern_Man

***

Indisciminate gassing of children really does cross the line for me (even non-Christian ones) I'm not sure how anyone could be in favor of not punishing those responsible.

I may be in favor of "punishing those responsible" but I disagree that "WE" should be the ones doing the punishing.

Yes, the UN should impose sanctions and demand Assad give up his WMDs.

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

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... (and the race card is not an option against that opponent).

Unnecessary BS aside. I thought you were above that.

Maybe I'm having an off day.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jclalor 12]

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Oh, yeah, gas is SO much worse than artillery. People should look forward to traumatic amputation and other blast-induced damage by comparison.

Gee... I wonder why they invented nerve gas if artillery did the trick just fine

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Of course, sending large amounts of explosive through the air is nowhere NEAR as indiscriminate as using chemical weapons.

We agree

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I am sure that the (22,700+ - mostly refugees, btw) residents of Dresden (13 Feb 1945) and the (100,000+) residents of Tokyo (9 Mar 1945) were comforted by the fact that no "weapons of mass destruction" were used on them. No siree bob, none of that indiscriminate stuff for them!

Who has ever denied that they were not the intentional targeted killing of women and children?

[Stumpy 256]

Several years ago your government was saying its best intelligence was that there were WMD's in iraq. I feel everyone is thoroughly justified in being somewhat doubtful of "US Intelligence"
I'm not at all impressed by any of the politicians in the countries I have lived in that took bush at his word either, and I hope they will be more circumspect this time with Obama.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[DanG 1]

We have to do something. I have no problem with cruise missile strikes. You can be assured that there will be some sort of international coalition, but the UN will not act.

(To insert the SC required partisan rant: I'd like to point out that 99% of the time, conservatives have nothing but disdain for the UN. The one time it might make Obama look bad, suddenly the UN is the gold standard of international prestige)

Nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) weapons are the worst kind of indiscriminate weapons. It is impossible to isolate damage to military targets. With conventional weapons, damage can be limited to military targets. Obviously, it often is not limited, but the capability is there. The only purpose for NBC weapons is to terrorize a population. The international community should not tolerate their use. Period.

And please don't argue that we used them in the past, so can't protest their use now. That's like saying to your child that if he bites his sister, he should never speak up when he sees another kid biting. Hopefully we've learned from our past. We need to pass those lessons on.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

Southern_Man

***

Indisciminate gassing of children really does cross the line for me (even non-Christian ones) I'm not sure how anyone could be in favor of not punishing those responsible.

I may be in favor of "punishing those responsible" but I disagree that "WE" should be the ones doing the punishing.

But we must - it's already bought and paid for with the money we've spent so we can have a military 50% larger than what's needed to protect our soil, at the expense of national health coverage that protects families even if their breadwinners lose their jobs, like every other country the industrialized world has. Something has to justify that; as often as not, being the world's policeman is it.

[rehmwa 2]

Gravitymaster

I really don't give a shit. The Syrians don't like Americans. If they want to kill each other, let them. The only thing the U.S and our allies should guard against is the chemical weapons falling into the hands of Hamas or Al Qaeda or one of the other psychopathic groups. Fuck all of them, they are getting what they deserve and I don't care.

I really hate this statement. Syrians are just people too.

I do object with us taking action in their country. If the people of Syria don't like the treatment at the hands of their own government - they should rise up.

We don't need to be the world cop, we don't need to be big brother.

We need to monitor these situations for the sole purpose of making sure our citizens are protected.

International involvement in conflicts should be strictly controlled by our agreements with allies, or self interest. I don't think that the level of outrage by our president should have any impact on decisions to interfere with business in other countries.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[winsor 186]

jclalor

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Oh, yeah, gas is SO much worse than artillery. People should look forward to traumatic amputation and other blast-induced damage by comparison.

Gee... I wonder why they invented nerve gas if artillery did the trick just fine

***Of course, sending large amounts of explosive through the air is nowhere NEAR as indiscriminate as using chemical weapons.

We agree

Quote

I am sure that the (22,700+ - mostly refugees, btw) residents of Dresden (13 Feb 1945) and the (100,000+) residents of Tokyo (9 Mar 1945) were comforted by the fact that no "weapons of mass destruction" were used on them. No siree bob, none of that indiscriminate stuff for them!

Who has ever denied that they were not the intentional targeted killing of women and children?


Whooosh...

[winsor 186]

Stumpy

Several years ago your government was saying its best intelligence was that there were WMD's in iraq. I feel everyone is thoroughly justified in being somewhat doubtful of "US Intelligence"
I'm not at all impressed by any of the politicians in the countries I have lived in that took bush at his word either, and I hope they will be more circumspect this time with Obama.

Dude, we weren't guessing, we KNEW they had WMDs.

Hell, we had the receipts.

[Skyrad 0]

jclalor

*********I really don't give a shit. The Syrians don't like Americans. If they want to kill each other, let them. The only thing the U.S and our allies should guard against is the chemical weapons falling into the hands of Hamas or Al Qaeda or one of the other psychopathic groups. Fuck all of them, they are getting what they deserve and I don't care.

I spent 2 weeks in Syria in 08, as with most other places in the world, they really seemed to love Americans, but not the American Goverment.

It's good to see that they are all "getting" what they deserve. If there's one thing I could never stand, it was a a three year old anti American extremist.

Enough is enough, Syrians are killing Syrians and we can't stand by and do nothing. We need to kill Syrians to stop Syrians from killing Syrians, but don't worry because we'll use different weapons to the Syrians who are killing Syrians to kill our Syrians thereby reclaiming the moral high ground... Genius!

Indisciminate gassing of children really does cross the line for me (even non-Christian ones) I'm not sure how anyone could be in favor of not punishing those responsible.

Except thats not what this is about, this is simply a stick in the bollocks for Iran to push them into an aggressive move so that the USA can attack them while looking like the injured party. The USA or UK power brokers don't give a shit about gassed children, if they did the USA wouldn't have supplied Iraq with the chemical weapons to use on the Kurds, while the UK trained their officers.
This is purely about sticking it to the Iranians, keep watching we'll be at war with them before Christmas and maybe even by he end of the month.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's not just the Iranians, don't forget the Russians and the Chinese. I can only hope there are cooler heads in Moscow and Beijing than there are in Washington. WTF is going on here?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jclalor 12]

winsor

***

Quote

Oh, yeah, gas is SO much worse than artillery. People should look forward to traumatic amputation and other blast-induced damage by comparison.

Gee... I wonder why they invented nerve gas if artillery did the trick just fine

***Of course, sending large amounts of explosive through the air is nowhere NEAR as indiscriminate as using chemical weapons.

We agree

Quote

I am sure that the (22,700+ - mostly refugees, btw) residents of Dresden (13 Feb 1945) and the (100,000+) residents of Tokyo (9 Mar 1945) were comforted by the fact that no "weapons of mass destruction" were used on them. No siree bob, none of that indiscriminate stuff for them!

Who has ever denied that they were not the intentional targeted killing of women and children?


Whooosh...

Comparing the firebombing of cities during WW2, to the limited use of targeted cruise missiles, saying a 155 round is no more deadly than VX gas, Whooosh...

[jclalor 12]

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This is purely about sticking it to the Iranians, keep watching we'll be at war with them before Christmas and maybe even by he end of the month.

If this was about sticking it to the Iranians, we would have given a lot more support to the rebels, which we clearly have not. I think Washington is beginning to realize that Assad is clearly the least of the two evils in Syria.

[Fast 0]

rehmwa

We don't need to be the world cop, we don't need to be big brother.

We need to monitor these situations for the sole purpose of making sure our citizens are protected.

International involvement in conflicts should be strictly controlled by our agreements with allies, or self interest. I don't think that the level of outrage by our president should have any impact on decisions to interfere with business in other countries.

This can't be said enough. I can't imagine we would avoid it though. This country is doing it's best to control every aspect of its own citizens life, not to mention everyone else it can get its hands on.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

We have to do something. I have no problem with cruise missile strikes. You can be assured that there will be some sort of international coalition, but the UN will not act.

Why do we have to do something?

And the internationall coalition right now consists of England and France.

[Quote](To insert the SC required partisan rant: I'd like to point out that 99% of the time, conservatives have nothing but disdain for the UN. The one time it might make Obama look bad, suddenly the UN is the gold standard of international prestige)

I understand that. But would cite it because it's further evidence that Obama saw what Dubya did and how he did it and ran with it. Only Bush had a UN resolution, didn't he? The President doesn't care.

He's no less of a war criminal than Bush (see Libya). No less of an arms dealer than Reagan.

[Reply]Nuclear/biological/chemical (NBC) weapons are the worst kind of indiscriminate weapons. It is impossible to isolate damage to military targets.

[jclalor 12]

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Sure. And they have a tendency of blowing back in the faces that use them. The non-persistent types, however, do leave infrastructure intact.

Kind of like some of your post... they kill the reader but leave their computer intact.

[lawrocket 3]

jclalor

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Sure. And they have a tendency of blowing back in the faces that use them. The non-persistent types, however, do leave infrastructure intact.

Kind of like some of your post... they kill the reader but leave their computer intact.

I don't use chemicals. I incinerate citizenry with hot air.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[airdvr 198]

What we're seeing now is a POTUS severely lacking principles, moral fiber, and content of character. This is one of the DECISION POINTS in his presidency and he can't risk making a decision where he might look bad. He is at a loss for what to do because there is no clear polling to direct him.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 3]

airdvr

What we're seeing now is a POTUS severely lacking principles, moral fiber, and content of character. This is one of the DECISION POINTS in his presidency and he can't risk making a decision where he might look bad. He is at a loss for what to do because there is no clear polling to direct him.

So what decision would YOU make?

Be careful, the world is watching and the guy before you fucked up the US credibility. Make the wrong choice and be forever branded as "worse than Bush."

Gimme a fuckin' break.

It's a country committing genocide against its own people using a universally denounced chemical agent AND the US is pretty much the ONLY country on the planet that -could- possibly do something to stop it.

That man has a tough choice to make. He might want to consider it for more than a news cycle.

YOU might wanna cut him some slack while he does that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

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The non-persistent types, however, do leave infrastructure intact.

That's what I've been thinking, too re: what makes it more likely that Assad, rather than a non-regime actor, did the gassing: this was in suburban Damascus. If Assad ferociously went after that target with artillery, he'd be destroying his own capital city. Not solid proof, of course, but a noteworthy circumstantial factor.

[airdvr 198]

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So what decision would YOU make?

Doesn't matter what decision I make, I'm not the POTUS. He said it was a red line. What did he mean by that?

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Be careful, the world is watching and the guy before you fucked up the US credibility. Make the wrong choice and be forever branded as "worse than Bush."

Are you saying he's more concerned with saving face than with principles? Sounds like it.

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It's a country committing genocide against its own people using a universally denounced chemical agent AND the US is pretty much the ONLY country on the planet that -could- possibly do something to stop it.

China? Russia? UK? Don't you mean we're the only country that would stop it.

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That man has a tough choice to make. He might want to consider it for more than a news cycle.

March 7, 2009 - The United States and Syria found "common ground" when U.S. officials Jeffrey Feltman and Dan Shapiro met with Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem in the first high-level trip by American officials to Damascus since 2005.

February 16, 2010 - Obama nominated Robert Ford to be the U.S. ambassador to Syria, the first since Washington withdrew its ambassador in 2005 after the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri in Beirut.

February 17, 2010 - Assad held security talks in Damascus with U.S. Under Secretary of State William Burns, after which the U.S. official said he was "hopeful" of progress.

April 8, 2011 - In a statement on the uprising, which began on March 15, Obama called on Assad to halt the "abhorrent violence committed against peaceful protesters."

April 22, 2011 - Obama condemned use of force against demonstrators and called on Assad to "change course now."

April 29, 2011 - United States slaps sanctions on Syria's intelligence agency and two relatives of Assad, in Washington's first concrete steps in response to the crackdown on protests.

July 12, 2011 - Obama sharpened rhetoric against Assad, saying the Syrian president had "lost legitimacy" for failing to lead a democratic transition.

August 11, 2011 - Obama and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan in a phone call spoke about the violence in Syria and the need for a transition to democracy, the White House said.

August 18, 2011 - For the first time, Obama called for Assad to step down, saying: "For the sake of the Syrian people, the time has come for President Assad to step aside." Britain, France and Germany also called for Assad to step aside.

October 24, 2011 - The United States pulled its ambassador, Robert Ford, out of Syria over threats to his safety.

May 18, 2012 - Group of Eight leaders at Camp David discussed the need for political transition in Syria.

June 18, 2012 - Obama and Russian President Vladimir Putin at the Group of 20 summit in Mexico agreed violence in Syria must end but showed no signs of reaching a deal on tougher sanctions against Damascus.

June 22, 2012 - U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta defended the administration's decision to not arm the Syrian rebels, which has been criticized by some Republicans in Congress.

July 18, 2012 - Obama called Putin to discuss the deteriorating situation in Syria after a bombing in Damascus killed members of Assad's inner circle, but the two leaders ended the call divided over the best way forward.

July 19, 2012 - U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice called the Russian and Chinese vetoes of a U.N. Security Council resolution on Syria "dangerous and deplorable."

July 23, 2012 - Obama says Assad will be held accountable if he makes the "tragic mistake" of using Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons.

How long do you think he needs to make a decision and stick with it? This president's foreign policy is a joke and the world knows it.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 3]

airdvr

This president's foreign policy is a joke and the world knows it.

Pretty sure you'd be unable to bring yourself to say anything different no matter the circumstances.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver