OHCHUTE 0
Recommended Posts
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuote
I made my proposal. Let teachers opt to carry. Give them a chance in hell.
metal detectors could be an answer, but seems like overkill for grade school where this sort of thing is less likely than a tornado ripping it up.
I'm working on the design for a new school in LA right now and we're REQUIRED to include metal detectors, as well as designing the layout and shape of the school itself to control student movements so that the pupils can be easily screened at entry points. We've also had to consider emergency lock-down doors in classrooms and 'Incident Protocols'.
We're deliberately designing schools right now in the expectation that that this will happen again. Think about that for a second.
I've worked on school designs all over the world and nowhere has the same constraints and personally I think it's a tragic reflection of American society. You may have personal freedom, but it infringes on other freedoms - what about students freedoms not to go to school in a military camp?
In other news:
11- Year old boy brings gun to school - says it's 'to protect himself and friends from another Conetticut style incident
SUUUURE. There's no problem with guns in the states.
Edit: I really wish people would get off the alternative 'car accident' arguments. It's a strawman argument. The two aren't related. You could solve both independently (and should!) as they both need different measures. It's not a case of having one or the other!
Why not say 'well, guns only kill x hundred people a year - poverty and starvation kills millions! We need to fix that first!'
Around here, 50 percent of the kids eventually end up in jail so why not design schools like jails. When they finally get to jail it will look familar! This is still an overpopulation problem/ More schools=more targets. More kids=more nutjobs.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Your're just trollin now aren't ya
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
OHCHUTE 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
I made my proposal. Let teachers opt to carry. Give them a chance in hell.
metal detectors could be an answer, but seems like overkill for grade school where this sort of thing is less likely than a tornado ripping it up.
I'm working on the design for a new school in LA right now and we're REQUIRED to include metal detectors, as well as designing the layout and shape of the school itself to control student movements so that the pupils can be easily screened at entry points. We've also had to consider emergency lock-down doors in classrooms and 'Incident Protocols'.
We're deliberately designing schools right now in the expectation that that this will happen again. Think about that for a second.
I've worked on school designs all over the world and nowhere has the same constraints and personally I think it's a tragic reflection of American society. You may have personal freedom, but it infringes on other freedoms - what about students freedoms not to go to school in a military camp?
In other news:
11- Year old boy brings gun to school - says it's 'to protect himself and friends from another Conetticut style incident
SUUUURE. There's no problem with guns in the states.
Edit: I really wish people would get off the alternative 'car accident' arguments. It's a strawman argument. The two aren't related. You could solve both independently (and should!) as they both need different measures. It's not a case of having one or the other!
Why not say 'well, guns only kill x hundred people a year - poverty and starvation kills millions! We need to fix that first!'
Around here, 50 percent of the kids eventually end up in jail so why not design schools like jails. When they finally get to jail it will look familar! This is still an overpopulation problem/ More schools=more targets. More kids=more nutjobs.
Your're just trollin now aren't ya
OH, what am i thinking. A school is much like a jail anyway. Classrooms have one entry point, sinks, much like a cell but lacking a toilet. This is the reason its so easy for shooter to go from classroom to class room once the main entry point is breeched. And during class, no one is in the hall.
PUT THE MAIN ENTRANCE AT THE GYM. ALL PEOPLE HAVE TO WALK THORUGH THE GYM TO GET TO the offices, then to the cell block, class rooms. Populate the gym with a few people at the back side of the gym. Plenety of time then to lock the back internal gym door. I agree, schools need new design features. This idea you walk in, turn left and go down the hall with classrooms on both side without even passing the office has to go. (In the instance of where my kids went to elementary school.)
An interesting article on how the media gives too much emphasis on the killer and how many he killed rather than doing what could actually help by simply not having 24/7 coverage of the killer, the body count and all the carnage and instead focusing on the victims.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82969791/
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82969791/
SkyDekker 1,123
QuoteI made my proposal. Let teachers opt to carry. Give them a chance in hell.
metal detectors could be an answer, but seems like overkill for grade school where this sort of thing is less likely than a tornado ripping it up.
In a more gun deaths focus, legalize drugs.
Legalize drugs? I think prescription drugs are a big part of this problem, so find it interesting you would indicate legalization of drugs as an option to reduce these mass shootings.
Quoteso having repeated it again, answer the fucking question already with something that isn't pie in the sky fantasy. We know why you can't...this problem is only easy to solve in theory, where costs don't need to be counted. reality is a bitch.
I don't think reality is a bitch at all. The rest of the western world seems to have figured it out. The US had a shooting in a school, a mall and a movie theatre all in one week alone. Most other western civilized countries don't even have that in a year, or a decade.
So, there is indeed no 100% cure for this. But many other countries have opted to try and reduce these incidents from happening. Most relatively succesful.
What have you (in a general sense) done since Columbine, the various University shootings, Ft. Hood, Aurora? What are you going to do now, after Newtown? Probably nothing meaningful.
On the issue of costs, how incredibly sick is it that you spend trillions on warfare around the globe, but now you are worried about costs to prevent mass shootings in your own country. No wonder your reality is a bitch, your priorities are as fucked up as they get.
QuoteQuoteI made my proposal. Let teachers opt to carry. Give them a chance in hell.
metal detectors could be an answer, but seems like overkill for grade school where this sort of thing is less likely than a tornado ripping it up.
In a more gun deaths focus, legalize drugs.
Legalize drugs? I think prescription drugs are a big part of this problem, so find it interesting you would indicate legalization of drugs as an option to reduce these mass shootings.
As should be obvious by the phrase, I'm talking about illicit drug legalization, which is the direct cause of a significant portion (majority, I dare say) of shootings in the nation. It has nothing to do with the anomalous mass shootings.
Quote
Quoteso having repeated it again, answer the fucking question already with something that isn't pie in the sky fantasy. We know why you can't...this problem is only easy to solve in theory, where costs don't need to be counted. reality is a bitch.
I don't think reality is a bitch at all. The rest of the western world seems to have figured it out. The US had a shooting in a school, a mall and a movie theatre all in one week alone. Most other western civilized countries don't even have that in a year, or a decade.
So, there is indeed no 100% cure for this. But many other countries have opted to try and reduce these incidents from happening. Most relatively succesful.
What have you (in a general sense) done since Columbine, the various University shootings, Ft. Hood, Aurora? What are you going to do now, after Newtown? Probably nothing meaningful.
On the issue of costs, how incredibly sick is it that you spend trillions on warfare around the globe, but now you are worried about costs to prevent mass shootings in your own country. No wonder your reality is a bitch, your priorities are as fucked up as they get.
Can you ID any other western nations that had a higher level of violence and 'figured it out?' Or are you just citing other nations who always had a lower level of violence and asserting that their gun policies are why? We already can see the obvious - that the others nations have events like this. We've seen it in England, in Norway, in Germany, etc...
What are we going to do? I would hope we allow teachers to carry. Because nothing will prevent people from losing their minds and doing evil shit. This has been true for centuries. So it's fantasy to talk about prevention as a easy goal and focus on mitigation where real gains can be achieved.
It's a bit rich hearing Canadians bitch about US defense spending when its a direct benefactor of this, but more to the point, you mistaking read "costs" as just being about money. Opportunity costs and loss of civil rights are also costs. But even with money - I know we can't put a cop in every elementary school class, and I know that if we even tried, we'd be getting a pool of guys that even the TSA would turn its nose up over.
and you're still failing to pick any, I see. For the reasons I stated.
SkyDekker 1,123
QuoteAs should be obvious by the phrase, I'm talking about illicit drug legalization, which is the direct cause of a significant portion (majority, I dare say) of shootings in the nation. It has nothing to do with the anomalous mass shootings.
Ah ok. I would prefer to focus on shooting incidents in which innocent people get killed. Criminal on criminal violence is significantly lower on the list for me. But I appreciate that other people have different priorities.
QuoteCan you ID any other western nations that had a higher level of violence and 'figured it out?' Or are you just citing other nations who always had a lower level of violence and asserting that their gun policies are why?
Not assserting that. I think it is much more than just their gun policies.
QuoteWhat are we going to do? I would hope we allow teachers to carry. Because nothing will prevent people from losing their minds and doing evil shit. This has been true for centuries. So it's fantasy to talk about prevention as a easy goal and focus on mitigation where real gains can be achieved.
See, that I don't agree with. It would imply that Americans are either more evil, or go crazier at a higher rate. I do think more can be done on the preventative side. I do also as a general rule believe that prevention is much better than treatment.
QuoteIt's a bit rich hearing Canadians bitch about US defense spending when its a direct benefactor of this,
I don't see how we are a benefactor to your war in Iraq. We spent our own price on Afghanistan. Don't spend on defence on account of us.
QuoteOpportunity costs and loss of civil rights are also costs.
They are indeed....are those costs open for discussion, or as asked before are these mass shootings just the price to pay for those civil liberties?
Quoteand you're still failing to pick any, I see. For the reasons I stated.
Simply because I think any possible solution has to be multipronged, I have outlined that before.
Make it harder to access firearms, specially those that can fire in rapid succession.
Better mental health care.
Less reliance on prescription drugs.
Make it easier to force hospitalization.
reduce stigma associated with mental health issues.
Shredex 0
Portugal legalized all drugs and their drug usage dropped significantly.
I feel the need to add this somewhere.
"i know its cliche, but do you remember the Middle East?
do you even care, do you wonder, do you feel at least
worried about how our troops are pulling through it?
do you ever get to thinking about these bullied students?
do you... do you ever consider
the homeless man that's sleeping under bridges every December
its freezing cold and all he wants is just a sweater or dinner
but not a single one of us can seem to ever remember
too busy caught up in the media frenzy, when a problem
child, gets a gun and goes Gangnam Style"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziRMehYY7TE
I feel the need to add this somewhere.
"i know its cliche, but do you remember the Middle East?
do you even care, do you wonder, do you feel at least
worried about how our troops are pulling through it?
do you ever get to thinking about these bullied students?
do you... do you ever consider
the homeless man that's sleeping under bridges every December
its freezing cold and all he wants is just a sweater or dinner
but not a single one of us can seem to ever remember
too busy caught up in the media frenzy, when a problem
child, gets a gun and goes Gangnam Style"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziRMehYY7TE
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteAs should be obvious by the phrase, I'm talking about illicit drug legalization, which is the direct cause of a significant portion (majority, I dare say) of shootings in the nation. It has nothing to do with the anomalous mass shootings.
Ah ok. I would prefer to focus on shooting incidents in which innocent people get killed. Criminal on criminal violence is significantly lower on the list for me. But I appreciate that other people have different priorities.QuoteCan you ID any other western nations that had a higher level of violence and 'figured it out?' Or are you just citing other nations who always had a lower level of violence and asserting that their gun policies are why?
Not assserting that. I think it is much more than just their gun policies.QuoteWhat are we going to do? I would hope we allow teachers to carry. Because nothing will prevent people from losing their minds and doing evil shit. This has been true for centuries. So it's fantasy to talk about prevention as a easy goal and focus on mitigation where real gains can be achieved.
See, that I don't agree with. It would imply that Americans are either more evil, or go crazier at a higher rate. I do think more can be done on the preventative side. I do also as a general rule believe that prevention is much better than treatment.QuoteIt's a bit rich hearing Canadians bitch about US defense spending when its a direct benefactor of this,
I don't see how we are a benefactor to your war in Iraq. We spent our own price on Afghanistan. Don't spend on defence on account of us.QuoteOpportunity costs and loss of civil rights are also costs.
They are indeed....are those costs open for discussion, or as asked before are these mass shootings just the price to pay for those civil liberties?Quoteand you're still failing to pick any, I see. For the reasons I stated.
Simply because I think any possible solution has to be multipronged, I have outlined that before.
Make it harder to access firearms, specially those that can fire in rapid succession.
Better mental health care.
Less reliance on prescription drugs.
Make it easier to force hospitalization.
reduce stigma associated with mental health issues.
A well thought out post
Worthy of debate
But for now I would just like to add this
If all your ideas were implimented the fullest, you will never stop evil from doing what was done in that school. Never
So, the next best thing is to prepare to mimimize it
Arm and train the teachers
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there. In the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,123
QuotePortugal legalized all drugs and their drug usage dropped significantly.
No they didn't.
Yes their drug use has dropped significantly, with a significant cost to their public health system. I would welcome such changes, good luck implementing that in the US.
QuoteArm and train the teachers
Not sure on this one but there are options to increase the likely hood of success IMO. If you arm them with a shotgun, possibly. But after talking at length with a US marshal in my neighborhood, it validated the thought process is that most people (even very well trained) are terrible in a firefight, especially if the enemy has the element of surprise. An example he gave was a recent situation where he, and an incredibly well trained, accurate, and seasoned combatant were in an exchange where 40 rounds were fired and 4 (ONLY 4) landed.
As such, a close range "point in the general direction" weapon is best in most civilian intrusion scenarios - one that'll dissipate it's energy quickly.
His thoughts (and I agree) - "People have an unrealistic expectation of their own abilities in these kinds of high stress situations". Otherwise known as "I wanted too many action movies"
Quote
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there.
Disagree there. The problem with a lot of these scenarios is the assumption that the perp wanted to make it out alive. That's a rational thought process applied to an irrational situation. "Blaze of glory" doesn't expect, or want to come out alive.
QuoteIn the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Definitely. The could have also killed additional people by accident. Tough call.
Personally, rather than arming teachers (if we're going to see this process through), I'd rather have a trained professional/marshal type person on the school grounds.
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteArm and train the teachers
Not sure on this one but there are options to increase the likely hood of success IMO. If you arm them with a shotgun, possibly. But after talking at length with a US marshal in my neighborhood, it validated the thought process is that most people (even very well trained) are terrible in a firefight, especially if the enemy has the element of surprise. As such, a "point in the general direction" weapon is best.
His thoughts (and I agree) - "People have an unrealistic expectation of their own abilities in these kinds of high stress situations". Otherwise known as "I wanted too many action movies"Quote
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there.
Disagree there. The problem with a lot of these scenarios is the assumption that the perp wanted to make it out alive. That's a rational thought process applied to an irrational situation. "Blaze of glory" doesn't expect, or want to come out alive.QuoteIn the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Definitely. The could have also killed additional people by accident. Tough call.
Personally, rather than arming teachers (if we're going to see this process through), I'd rather have a trained professional/marshal type person on the school grounds.
Ian
Agreed on your first point
I have been to some training that uses stress situations to show you how poor you really are
But the it does provide options but I for the most part agree with your friend
Second
We have two recent examples of people who went to gun free zones to kill
This school and the Oregon mall
In both cases the shooter turned the gun on themselves when confronted
I think they both knew they were going to be dead in the end, but they were hell bent on taking as many as they could with them
They may have avoided a place with guns (but this is just a guess on my part as I know yours is too)
One thing is for sure
This is the type of debate that is needed
Thanks
Marc
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
SkyDekker 1,123
QuoteIf all your ideas were implimented the fullest, you will never stop evil from doing what was done in that school. Never
You are right, you won't. Nothing is 100% effective.
QuoteArm and train the teachers
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there. In the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Or he would have hidden himself away from a schoolyard and picked them off on recess. Or one of many other options. Like you said, nothing is 100% effective, neither on the prevention or the "treatment" side.
In my opinion efforts on the preventative side are worth more than on the "treatment" side. I know others will disagree.
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteIf all your ideas were implimented the fullest, you will never stop evil from doing what was done in that school. Never
You are right, you won't. Nothing is 100% effective.QuoteArm and train the teachers
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there. In the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Or he would have hidden himself away from a schoolyard and picked them off on recess. Or one of many other options. Like you said, nothing is 100% effective, neither on the prevention or the "treatment" side.
In my opinion efforts on the preventative side are worth more than on the "treatment" side. I know others will disagree.
No, it would be hard to argue with effective preventative actions
So why not do both
We wear a reserve
We practice our EPs to use it
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
OHCHUTE 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteIf all your ideas were implimented the fullest, you will never stop evil from doing what was done in that school. Never
You are right, you won't. Nothing is 100% effective.QuoteArm and train the teachers
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there. In the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Or he would have hidden himself away from a schoolyard and picked them off on recess. Or one of many other options. Like you said, nothing is 100% effective, neither on the prevention or the "treatment" side.
In my opinion efforts on the preventative side are worth more than on the "treatment" side. I know others will disagree.
No, it would be hard to argue with effective preventative actions
So why not do both
We wear a reserve
We practice our EPs to use it
One would think you'd start at points of entry, and access, not arm teachers. When kids are already bouncing off the walls having to deal with a side arm is a pretty dumb idea.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jennieturcios/2907401412/
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf all your ideas were implimented the fullest, you will never stop evil from doing what was done in that school. Never
You are right, you won't. Nothing is 100% effective.QuoteArm and train the teachers
If that had been done, and the perp knew it, he may never had gone there. In the event he went anyway, a trained armed person may have minimized the suffering
Or he would have hidden himself away from a schoolyard and picked them off on recess. Or one of many other options. Like you said, nothing is 100% effective, neither on the prevention or the "treatment" side.
In my opinion efforts on the preventative side are worth more than on the "treatment" side. I know others will disagree.
No, it would be hard to argue with effective preventative actions
So why not do both
We wear a reserve
We practice our EPs to use it
One would think you'd start at points of entry, and access, not arm teachers. When kids are already bouncing off the walls having to deal with a side arm is a pretty dumb idea.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jennieturcios/2907401412/
I know
It is only a dumb idea if you dont think of it
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteQuoteAs should be obvious by the phrase, I'm talking about illicit drug legalization, which is the direct cause of a significant portion (majority, I dare say) of shootings in the nation. It has nothing to do with the anomalous mass shootings.
Ah ok. I would prefer to focus on shooting incidents in which innocent people get killed. Criminal on criminal violence is significantly lower on the list for me. But I appreciate that other people have different priorities.
it's not my highest priority either, but it is by far the most significant one in incident count. Remove/seriously reduce it, and you've now freed up immense police and financial resources (less prison spending) that can be directed at the objectives we do care about.
SkyDekker 1,123
Quoteit's not my highest priority either, but it is by far the most significant one in incident count. Remove/seriously reduce it, and you've now freed up immense police and financial resources (less prison spending) that can be directed at the objectives we do care about.
Ah ok, that makes sense.
Portugal has been brought up as an example.
But, Portugal did not legalize drugs. They shifted the burden from being one of a criminal nature to one of a health nature.
I believe it is that shift that has caused the reduction in usage. I do not think that simply legalizing it will have the same effect. I also don't think that the strategy adopted by Portugal will ever fly in the US. Look at the anger and dismay of offering public health care in any shape or form. Now imagine proposing free public health care for drug users...
Around here, 50 percent of the kids eventually end up in jail so why not design schools like jails. When they finally get to jail it will look familar! This is still an overpopulation problem/ More schools=more targets. More kids=more nutjobs.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites