massive shooting at Batman projection...

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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You think that the emotional aftermath of this tragedy, where people are making knee-jerk reactions about causes is a good time to discuss restricting the rghts of law abiding gun owners?

Holmes was a law abiding gun owner right up until the moment he wasn't. Should he have had access to the guns he used to kill or injure 70 people?

Until someone comes up with a method of knowing ahead of time that someone is going to commit a crime, Yes he should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2bmImPNKbM

[billvon 2,400]

>Until someone comes up with a method of knowing ahead of time that someone is
>going to commit a crime, Yes he should.

Really? Even the mentally deranged should have access to guns? They can say "I feel like killing a bunch of people today!" and nothing can be done until they manage to shoot someone?

I disagree with that.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Many, however, are fearful of the knee-jerk reaction that anti-gun nuts try to incite when something like this happens.

Thus confirming my statement. Thank you.

It is exactly why the pro-gun people are fearful of even allowing a discussion to even take place.

Pro-gun people don't want discussion with anti-gun people who are unwilling to compromise and will only talk about what we'll loose today.

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com·pro·mise
Noun:
An agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

I'd compromise and accept mandatory back-ground checks if the anti-gun people would allow the same bill to contain Federal pre-emption which forbids the states being stricter about what guns are allowed or Federal shall-issue concealed carry permits.

Compromise does not mean one side getting only some of what it wants while the other side looses, like a mugger who gets your wallet but not your iPhone too.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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>Until someone comes up with a method of knowing ahead of time that someone is
>going to commit a crime, Yes he should.

Really? Even the mentally deranged should have access to guns? They can say "I feel like killing a bunch of people today!" and nothing can be done until they manage to shoot someone?

I disagree with that.

There was no indication that he was/is mentally deranged ahead of time. If you have any information that he slipped through the cracks and someone knew ahead of time that he was deranged please feel free to share.

[quade 3]

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There was no indication that he was/is mentally deranged ahead of time

Pretty sure you're not up to date on that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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The Daily Show did a pretty good recap of folks repeatedly saying the phrase on their July 23 show. I'm not in a place where I can link that right now, but you should check it out.

DiFi one of those, though she has gone on to write a strongly worded editorial suggesting action. Just not doing actual action in Senate, the job she's paid to do.

[kelpdiver 2]

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And I have not idea what the Daily Show is

I'm not going to say that makes you culturally unaware or out of touch with most people, because I can see where some folks might not, but the vast majority of political junkies and certainly every political figure who has even a smidgen of sense certainly does.

You may want to google it.

I believe him as much as I would if someone said they had no idea who Rush Limbaugh is (a proud liberal, of course).

[kelpdiver 2]

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There was no indication that he was/is mentally deranged ahead of time

Pretty sure you're not up to date on that.

You know evidence that only two other people on earth might know?

Attorney/Doctor-client privilege exists for legitimate reason. And in our country, due process and presumption of innocence means that yes, he was allowed to own weapons right up till the point he shouldn't have been. (Though technically he was probably already on the criminal side of the ledger when he rigged his apartment).

You're only going to avoid that by squashing fundamental beliefs of our nation.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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There was no indication that he was/is mentally deranged ahead of time

Pretty sure you're not up to date on that.

AT THE TIME HE PURCHASED THE WEAPONS THERE WAS NOT.

READ IT SLOWLY TWICE.

[kelpdiver 2]

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When I think about people on the cusp of criminality, I can't help but think there are calculations that go through their minds. I think a big one is, "How easy will it be to be able to do this and can I pull it off?"

Now, while it may be true that a determined nut job or criminal probably will do quite a bit to make it happen. I think there's a lot of people on the cusp who are incredibly lazy. They aren't going to devote a few years of their lives learning how to be a ninja so they can knock over a 7/11, if they can pick up a gun and do it today.

I think the amazing ease with which guns are available is a factor.

According to JCD, these guys are fucking geniuses who cannot be stopped.

I hold to the same perspective you suggest - that they are not Einsteins and are easily deterred by people who can fight back. Unless they are aiming for death by cop, they tend to pick places where no one can defend themselves, rather than police stations or gun ranges.

[jcd11235 0]

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According to JCD, these guys are fucking geniuses who cannot be stopped.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to accurately represent what I've said.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 1,625]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

[billvon 2,400]

>If you have any information that he slipped through the cracks and someone knew
>ahead of time that he was deranged please feel free to share.

He was being treated by a the head of the mental health department at their school.

But that, of course, does not mean he was deranged. I was responding to your statement that a potential shooter - even a deranged one - should be able to get guns "until someone comes up with a method of knowing ahead of time that someone is going to commit a crime." I disagree. I think someone who is deranged should NOT be allowed to purchase deadly guns. If they are merely insane, and have not yet killed anyone, they should not be given the tools to do so.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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>If you have any information that he slipped through the cracks and someone knew
>ahead of time that he was deranged please feel free to share.

He was being treated by a the head of the mental health department at their school.

But that, of course, does not mean he was deranged. I was responding to your statement that a potential shooter - even a deranged one - should be able to get guns "until someone comes up with a method of knowing ahead of time that someone is going to commit a crime." I disagree. I think someone who is deranged should NOT be allowed to purchase deadly guns. If they are merely insane, and have not yet killed anyone, they should not be given the tools to do so.

I was speaking specifically about the shooter.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>If you have any information that he slipped through the cracks and someone knew
>ahead of time that he was deranged please feel free to share.

He was being treated by a the head of the mental health department at their school.

Can we actually say he "was being treated?" Or is that presuming too much?

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

Nope. Only state in the Union that totally bans civilian carry.

Of course there's ways around it (certified firearms instructor have an exception, so do "Special Police" , which are the people, including the mob, that pay off the local chief - really)

Chicago had a pretty much total pistol ban for many years. There was no way for a civilian to legally own a pistol (with the exceptions noted above), let alone carry one.

And Chicago has fought tooth and nail to keep city residents from getting pistols. They've had to go to court a number of times because they keep ignoring the MacDonald Supreme Court ruling and keep trying to keep the ban going.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kallend 1,625]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

Nope. Only state in the Union that totally bans civilian carry.

Of course there's ways around it (certified firearms instructor have an exception, so do "Special Police" , which are the people, including the mob, that pay off the local chief - really)

Chicago had a pretty much total pistol ban for many years. There was no way for a civilian to legally own a pistol (with the exceptions noted above), let alone carry one.

And Chicago has fought tooth and nail to keep city residents from getting pistols. They've had to go to court a number of times because they keep ignoring the MacDonald Supreme Court ruling and keep trying to keep the ban going.

Bu there is no ban since the SCOTUS ruling in 2010, yet the homicide rate went up! Previously it had gone down for several years. Blows a big hole in that argument.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[matthewcline 0]

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I think for myself

Weird then how often your talking points match word for word so many others on day and date then.

Hmmm...

Great Simple minds think alike

FIFY

My stalker is back

And leading with a PA, right out of the gate!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

Nope. Only state in the Union that totally bans civilian carry.

Of course there's ways around it (certified firearms instructor have an exception, so do "Special Police" , which are the people, including the mob, that pay off the local chief - really)

Chicago had a pretty much total pistol ban for many years. There was no way for a civilian to legally own a pistol (with the exceptions noted above), let alone carry one.

And Chicago has fought tooth and nail to keep city residents from getting pistols. They've had to go to court a number of times because they keep ignoring the MacDonald Supreme Court ruling and keep trying to keep the ban going.

So for the most part, if the ban was lifted, nothing has changed as far as citizens having guns so any increase in crime has nothing to do with it.

[billvon 2,400]

>I was speaking specifically about the shooter.

Ah, my mistake. We won't know what the shooter was being treated for - or whether there was any sign of his impending attacks in the notebook he sent his psychiatrist - until the courts get involved.

[matthewcline 0]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

Nope. Only state in the Union that totally bans civilian carry.

Of course there's ways around it (certified firearms instructor have an exception, so do "Special Police" , which are the people, including the mob, that pay off the local chief - really)

Chicago had a pretty much total pistol ban for many years. There was no way for a civilian to legally own a pistol (with the exceptions noted above), let alone carry one.

And Chicago has fought tooth and nail to keep city residents from getting pistols. They've had to go to court a number of times because they keep ignoring the MacDonald Supreme Court ruling and keep trying to keep the ban going.

So for the most part, if the ban was lifted, nothing has changed as far as citizens having guns so any increase in crime has nothing to do with it.

Bingo! We have a winner! SCOTUS said it was unconstitutional and the City said "what ever", and lost another law suit about violating Individual Constitutional Rights, but still won't honor the 2nd Amendment for the every day law abiding Citizen, so in essence the ban is still in place.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Bu there is no ban since the SCOTUS ruling in 2010, yet the homicide rate went up! Previously it had gone down for several years. Blows a big hole in that argument.

how many people have successfully obtained a handgun in Chicago since then? Bet it's a breeze for the cops to interview every one of them after every shooting...save the shootings keep occurring at a pretty high rate.

But I see this is how you're going to write off the statistical blip that occurred a couple years ago there...it went from high to lower because of the ongoing ban, and then immediately reverted back to its normal high after the SC ruled it was illegal.

[davjohns 1]

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I think he was saying that firearms availability is too great and that leads to some people committing crimes with them when they might otherwise have not committed crimes. I'm not sure, though. It wasn't a point clearly made or supported if I got it right.

When I think about people on the cusp of criminality, I can't help but think there are calculations that go through their minds. I think a big one is, "How easy will it be to be able to do this and can I pull it off?"

Now, while it may be true that a determined nut job or criminal probably will do quite a bit to make it happen. I think there's a lot of people on the cusp who are incredibly lazy. They aren't going to devote a few years of their lives learning how to be a ninja so they can knock over a 7/11, if they can pick up a gun and do it today.

I think the amazing ease with which guns are available is a factor.

So, we take away the store owner's gun and the punk with a knife now has him out-armed. Or just two punks against one store clerk and no firearms needed. The law abiding citizen loses out. I'm not sure that counts as a reduction in crime. Even in the recent case, the guy reportedly had explosives. If he had used those, we might not know who did it today. I can see where it might reduce some violent crime, but could also increase other crimes. Admittedly, being robbed strong-arm is better than being shot. But I'm also not sure how many convenience store robberies actually get the clerk shot. Probably not many.

One of my bigger concerns is not facing down the attacker armed with a firearm. I'm more concerned that without a firearm, my wife alone at home is easy prey to one large guy or two small ones. Even with my martial arts training, I know I can hold my own against two attackers. I also know that three will defeat me most of the time. If one of them has a knife, I need a gun. I think the concern of a potentail victim being armed keeps lots of criminal types from cruising my neighborhood or trying to engage a the potential victime who appears smaller or weaker.

So, where lack of firearms might disuade some firearms crimes, it might encourage some non-firearms crimes. All just speculation, really.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rushmc 18]

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113 people have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 10 years.

115 people have been killed skydiving in N. America in 5 years.

228 people have been killed by guns in Chicago from Jan 1 to June 16th this year.

Skydiving kills more people and gun laws clearly do not work.

I am surprised that you of all people would point out that the gun murder rate in Chicago has increased significantly since the GUN BAN IN CHICAGO WAS OVERTURNED IN JUNE 2010.

On all the sites I've looked at Illinois is still listed as a no carry state. Have I missed something?

You are correct
There are more suits in the works to "fix" the new restricions the city put in place after loosing the first time around

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln