Florida Teen Shot

[jakee 1,259]

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Explain how Jorges

Who's Jorges?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

[jakee 1,259]

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Explain how Jorges

Who's Jorges?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billeisele 122]

one thing we know for sure is that none of us know the details

but wonder what would happen, under FL law, if someone had a gun, followed someone else that perceived that they were being stalked/threatened

that person couldn't escape and choose to stop and fight (in their mind they were defending themselves), jumped on the stalker and was hitting him, stalker pulls the gun and bang

under FL law is this OK

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Explain how Jorges

Who's Jorges?

That's what I thought.

Now let's let the investigation continue. Hopefully those who have already convicted and sentenced Jorges will go hjome and let the Judicial System take it's course.

[bodypilot90 0]

More than just a scenario......

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Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

[wmw999 2,148]

If someone is innocently walking in their neighborhood, and is accosted by someone larger, not a police officer, what should they do? Are they allowed to stand their ground, or do they have to submit?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bodypilot90 0]

submit to what?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Maybe Treyvon was listening to an Ipod and dancing a little.

I didn't realize those were death penalty eligible crimes. Great. Now I'll be even more self-conscious about how I walk. Maybe some self-appointed Dirty Harry will decide I must be a violent criminal because I have a limp or something.

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Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

Irrelevant if Jorges instigated the confrontation, as all the evidence suggests he did. You can't start a confrontation, then pull out a gun and claim self-defense when things start to go badly for you. Except, of course, if you make sure to kill the guy you confronted so there isn't any other side to the story.

Hopefully there will be something in the forensics that puts a noose around his balls.

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You do realize Jorges Zimmerman was not on duty for the Neighborhood Watch that evening, don't you?

Irrelevant. Whether or not he was "on duty" he had no right to confront. I'd argue he had no reasonable basis for any measure of suspicion, but in any event his responsibility as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer would have been to call the police, and observe what the guy was doing/where he went. Not to confront. Not to execute.

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He had a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon and was on personal business when Treyvon for some reason caught his attention.

No one has disputed his right to carry. One might dispute the wisdom of carrying while playing cop-wannabe with a chip on his shoulder.

Just having a concealed carry permit does not give you any right to execute people you dislike. It does not give you any right to detain, interrogate, or otherwise harass law abiding people. It does not give you the right to provoke confrontations. If anything, concealed carry puts much more responsibility on your shoulders to avoid creating a situation where use of the weapon becomes necessary.

Now that I think about it, I bet the concealed carry issue is why some people are so adamant in their defense of Zimmerman. The reality is, if you think you have to actually use your weapon, you had better be so sure of it that you're willing to risk a long prison sentence if a jury decides your perception of risk was not "reasonable". If Zimmerman is held to account for his actions, it makes it less likely that you'd be able to say, "Oh well, freedom's not free" if you overreacted and killed some kid on his way home from the store.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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If someone is innocently walking in their neighborhood, and is accosted by someone larger, not a police officer, what should they do? Are they allowed to stand their ground, or do they have to submit?

Wendy P.

Depends on your definition of accosted.

[jakee 1,259]

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Explain how Jorges

Who's Jorges?

That's what I thought.

What did you think? Who is Jorges? Do you mean George Zimmerman? If so, why are you calling him Jorges? To accentuate the fact that he's half hispanic? Why? And how do you spell "Zimmerman" in spanish?

Now, if you are talking about George Zimmerman, then I don't know how he ended up with a bloody nose and grass stains. Do you? No. So what's your point? That he may have been coming off second best in an altercation is irrelevant to his claim of self defence if he was the one who provoked it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,148]

Let's say that you're concerned enough about the guy following you to mention it to your girlfriend you're talking to on the phone.

Might that make you worried? After all, women are told to listen to their fear.

Me, I'd scream. Of course, I'm 57, don't run very fast, and can't fight real well. If I were 17 and full of testosterone (always an asset in decision-making situations), I might decide to stand my ground.

Where does the expression "the best defense is a good offense" come in? Once someone is being followed, I'm thinking that a situation has already started. And we KNOW that Zimmerman wasfollowing Martin.

I wonder if Zimmerman would have suspected a white kid wearing a hoodie of being a criminal?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[muff528 3]

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...... And how do you spell "Zimmerman" in spanish?.....

"Carpintero" ....or maybe "Jesus" (a Jewish carpenter) since Zimmerman is the Jewish spelling.

[wlsc 0]

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If someone is innocently walking in their neighborhood, and is accosted by someone larger, not a police officer, what should they do? Are they allowed to stand their ground, or do they have to submit?

Wendy P.

Depends what color they are. Shame but true.

[wmw999 2,148]

That's too easy an answer, too. Using color as a first filter, no matter in which direction, is lazy and wrong.

A white kid walking in some neighborhoods is just as vulnerable as a black kid walking in others. Or hispanic, or gay, or female, or dressed provocatively.

The real answer is that it's not OK to accost someone. But, of course, since it does happen in the real world, you have to deal with it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[headoverheels 291]

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Maybe Treyvon was listening to an Ipod and dancing a little.

Explain how Jorges got a bloody nose, had grass stains on his back, a bump on the back of his head and a witness saw him on the ground with someone wearing a black hoodie on top of him.

I'll explain it. George said "hey you" from behind the kid, and the kid had his earphones in and didn't hear him. George though the kid was ignoring him, and said "hey you" and grabbed his shoulder. The kid though he was being attached, turns around and trips George, or George looses balance and slips on the slick grass. George shoots the kid.

Nobody would have been injured significantly , and likely not at all, if George had not been carrying a piece. The situation just would not have developed.
4 or 5 minutes later the cops would have shown up, Treyvon would have told them where he was staying, offered them some Skittles(tm), and everyone would have gone home (except perhaps George would be looking for more suspicious persons).

Edited for spelling.

[rushmc 18]

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If someone is innocently walking in their neighborhood, and is accosted by someone larger, not a police officer, what should they do? Are they allowed to stand their ground, or do they have to submit?

Wendy P.

You know this?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[headoverheels 291]

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If someone is innocently walking in their neighborhood, and is accosted by someone larger, not a police officer, what should they do? Are they allowed to stand their ground, or do they have to submit?

Wendy P.

You know this?

Obviously she knows it. She is the one who posited the scenario.

[wlsc 0]

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That's too easy an answer, too. Using color as a first filter, no matter in which direction, is lazy and wrong.

A white kid walking in some neighborhoods is just as vulnerable as a black kid walking in others. Or hispanic, or gay, or female, or dressed provocatively.

The real answer is that it's not OK to accost someone. But, of course, since it does happen in the real world, you have to deal with it.

Wendy P.

To survive you've got to live in the real world. In the real world black people get accosted far more than 'whites'. This case is just the tip of a very nasty iceberg. The end result is a prison system full of black folks. Shame but true.

[devildog 0]

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True. On the other hand, even as a neighborhood watch volunteer Zimmerman has no authority to detain or even question people. Since he had already called 911 and was told police were on the way, there was nothing to be gained from even trying to approach the kid. The fact that he disregarded the 911 dispatcher and went after the kid suggests to me that he was looking for a confrontation. This is consistent with his undisputed statements to the 911 dispatcher that Martin was "acting suspicious", was "high on drugs or something", and "these assholes always getaway with it". It's also curious that Zimmerman never identified himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer, and refused to give his home address to 911. Also on that 911 call he says of Martin "he's running", after which you can hear his truck door open, and his breathing becomes labored as if he is running. The dispatcher asks him "are you following him, to which Zimmerman answers''Yep" and the dispatcher says "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says "OK", but his labored breathing continues suggesting he is still running.

His labored breathing suggests he's out of shape and needs more cardio in his regime. Judging by his pic, he's not exactly a triathlete. He could still be breathing hard even though he's stopped following.

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What happened after that is what is in dispute. Zimmerman says he lost sight of Martin and returned to his truck to wait for the police. Out of nowhere the kid attacked him, knocked him down, and he had to draw his gun and kill the kid in self defense. Of course Martin is not here to tell his side, we can only hope that an objective forensic analysis will tell what really happened, if that can still be done at this point. I'm sure footprints that could verify how far the chase went, and whether or not Zimmerman stopped chasing and was walking back to the truck, are long gone.

Zimmerman then spends about 2 mins or so talking to the 911 operator before hanging up after saying "Okay" to "Don't chase him". The "okay" sounds like something someone who is actually complying and/or stopping pursuit and heading back to his truck. That's guess work for sure, but it's certainly not the vigilante attitude the MSM and friends wants to portray.

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Zimmerman's account requires that Martin, while carrying a bag of skittles and a cup of iced tea, and while talking on the phone to his girlfriend, somehow snuck up on Zimmerman (a man who was conspicuously larger than Martin) and blind-sided him.

As I understand it, the witness you mention saw Martin and Zimmerman fighting. I have not heard that the witness says he saw Martin stalk and attack Zimmerman. Maybe you can point me to a link where the witness makes such comments?

Nothing direct, but back in the thread there's this http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 which states a witness who has given statements and was interviewed by the police saw "everything" and it corroborates Zimmerman's account of what took place, as well as that Zimmerman is the one screaming for help. Not too mention its hard to imagine that a guy with a gun out, stalking a kid with his hands full, gets grass on his back and bleeds from his nose and head.

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So we have Zimmerman, who on no evidence at all prejudged Martin as "suspicious", "high on drugs", and an "asshole" who "always gets away with it" (whatever "it" is), and who chased after Martin based only on his paranoid fantasies, as the innocent aggrieved party. Zimmerman, who never called out to Martin to identify himself as being with neighborhood watch. Zimmerman, who according to residents of the neighborhood has a history of accosting people in a confrontational manner.

Without seeing Martin's behavior, we don't know if a normal person might have found him suspicious. Somehow, I think if you saw a guy slipping around houses where he didn't belong, and was dressed & acting like the guy in shot on the right (stolen from another forum, sorry :)) https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/522376_357921697585350_100001025689030_1106349_54459859_n.jpg instead of the 5 year old "kid" picture, you might think he was suspicious too. Point is, exactly how Martin was acting, where he was walking, what he was doing, is speculation unless someone comes out with a video of it. Portraying the scene as a kid doing absolutely nothing and therefore Zimmerman was crazy for saying Martin was acting "suspicious" is prejudging both Zimmerman and the incident as a whole.

As for his history of how he's handle the watch, did he ever draw down on any of those people he confronted? Ever pick a fight? Or just get verbal? There's a wide spectrum there, and just because he may take his watch duties a little more seriously than others, doesn't necessarily mean he plays Wild West whenever he can.

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Then we have Martin, a kid whose only previous "infraction" was tardiness at school. Otherwise a good student, never in trouble and never known to fight. Yet suddenly, for no reason, be becomes a raving homicidal maniac determined to kill a completely innocent random bystander (that would be Zimmerman), a man so dangerous he could only be stopped with deadly force.

If Z's story is even close to being true, I don't think Martin became a homicidal maniac, but rather Martin decided to pick a fight that sadly turned deadly. Martin was 17, 6' 200#, in shape, and a lot of kids that age feel indestructible, and at that height and weight, maybe he thought he could take Zimmerman. Wouldn't be the first time a teenager picked a fight with someone older.

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You think that version of events is probable? I think it's about as probable as a story that they were scooped up by aliens, transported half-way across the galaxy, forced to fight to the death in an arena for the entertainment of the alien masses, and at the climactic moment of the fight were suddenly teleported back to exact place and time they were snatched from, just in time for the one witness to see them fighting. YMMV, obviously.

I think what's actually known, what actual evidence there is, what witnesses have actually said at the very least make this case no where near as cut and dry as say, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the NPP want to make it. I think that Zimmerman's version, or one close to it, is probable enough that people shouldn't be joining the lynch mob.

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I suspect it is rather more probable that Zimmerman caught up to Martin and got the confrontation he so obviously was looking for.

This was my gut reaction when I first read the story. I didn't see it as a race thing, just some moron with a gun and looking to be Mr. Law. But after reading more and more, and listening to others, I've changed my mind.

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Put yourself in Martin's position for a moment (if you are capable of that). He's walking home, and sees this guy in a truck, staring at him. Is the guy a pedophile? Why's he staring at me like that? So Martin starts to run the rest of the way home, and the guy comes after him! Remember we have Zimmerman on the phone to 911 through all of this, so we know Zimmerman never tried to identify himself to Martin. Martin did exactly what we teach kids to do when accosted by strangers.

I don't teach my kids to hide in bushes and then jump the guy when he returns to his truck. Anyway, this version is assuming way too much than is known. You assume there was any sort of talk between Zimmerman and Martin. Again, if Zimmerman gave up, started to go back to his truck, and Martin jumped him, its completely unreasonable for Zimmerman to identify him as he's getting pulped.

Take the other side. Let's say you legitimately feel that you see a suspicious person where you live. You follow them a little bit so the police can find them. You lose sight of them, head back to your truck when you're hit from behind. Next thing you know, you're head goes into concrete, someone's splattered your nose and you're getting pummeled. You scream for help while trying vainly to fend off your attacker, but to no avail. You know the guy you were following was a pretty in shape guy @ about 200 lbs, and now that its been 10-20-30 seconds, pain is mounting and your body is telling you severe damage has or is about to ensue (if not death). Do you still try to reason with your attacker, or do you pull out your gun and shoot?

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[wmw999 2,148]

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To survive you've got to live in the real world. In the real world black people get accosted far more than 'whites'. This case is just the tip of a very nasty iceberg. The end result is a prison system full of black folks. Shame but true.

Depends on how you define "accost." The examples I gave ran the gamut.

Historically, there is a lot of prejudice against black people in the US. But only by evaluating individual situations on their individual merits will either black or white or hispanic or asian or any other people begin to get past the prejudices and cultural preconceptions.

It goes both ways. But yeah, black people are one of the few underdogs that mainstream America doens't identify with.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jakee 1,259]

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Zimmerman then spends about 2 mins or so talking to the 911 operator before hanging up after saying "Okay" to "Don't chase him". The "okay" sounds like something someone who is actually complying and/or stopping pursuit and heading back to his truck. That's guess work for sure, but it's certainly not the vigilante attitude the MSM and friends wants to portray.

The "OK" also sounds like something someone who is giving the operator the brushoff and carrying on following the kid would say (just like when he said "OK" to "We don't need you to follow him" and kept on following him). That's guess work for sure, but it certainly is a vigilante attitude.

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Nothing direct, but back in the thread there's this http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...d-zimmerman-03232012 which states a witness who has given statements and was interviewed by the police saw "everything" and it corroborates Zimmerman's account of what took place, as well as that Zimmerman is the one screaming for help. Not too mention its hard to imagine that a guy with a gun out, stalking a kid with his hands full, gets grass on his back and bleeds from his nose and head.

Except that all witness statements so far released do not describe "everything". There is not yet any statement but Zimmerman's that describes how the encounter was initiated and how they ended up on the ground.

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Somehow, I think if you saw a guy slipping around houses where he didn't belong,

"Slipping around"? "Didn't belong"?

The place he was seen by Zimmerman was inbetween where he had been and where he was going, yes? Why didn't he belong?

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Portraying the scene as a kid doing absolutely nothing and therefore Zimmerman was crazy for saying Martin was acting "suspicious" is prejudging both Zimmerman and the incident as a whole.

Not entirely. One of the reasons Zimmerman thought Martin was suspicious was because Martin 'stared' at him. Given that's what Zimmerman was doing to Martin for the entire phone conversation and presumably for some time before that it does strike me as a little odd.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[headoverheels 291]

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It's also curious that Zimmerman never identified himself as a neighborhood watch volunteer, and refused to give his home address to 911

He averaged calling them every 9 days over the last year, so they probably recognized him. There is something called "caller ID" these days which could also provide a clue.

Edit to add:

I haven't listened to the 911 call for a couple of days, but my impression was that he wanted the police to call him when they arrived, rather than meet them at his house or at the entrance to the complex, so that he could continue pursuit without actually saying he was going to. Probably didn't want to lose sight of the Skittles. I don't think he wanted to hide his ID or addresss -- far from it, in his cop wannabe see how I fight crime delusions of grandeur.

[1969912 0]

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[GeorgiaDon 340]

In the comments following one of the news stories, someone wrote: "Everyone's so wawawa about this little nigger boy. I say more of them should be put down, before they grow up to be gangstas."

That wouldn't have been you, by any chance?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)