RonD1120 58
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QuoteBut if he was the guy who started the situation that led to his feeling as though he was in danger, does that mean that he still gets to use deadly force without question?
Wendy P.
No.
"Nothing in 'stand your ground' authorizes (you) to pursue and confront,"
However there appears to be at least two separate-but-related issues here.
1. Zimmerman followed and then attempted to leave?
2. The kid attempted leaving but then turned on Zimmerman?
Had Zimmerman not followed: No incident
Had the kid continued to leave the area: No incident
Zimmerman's claim appears to be that he responded to being attacked (in danger - whatever that means).
The opposing view is that because he followed the kid then he is responsible for whatever happens after that. I don't agree with that idea at all.
Zimmerman screwed up by following.
That does not, in and of itself IMO, make him guilty of causing the kid to attack him.
The kid screwed up by not continuing to leave the area as he originally did according to reports.
What I see is Z followed the kid, the got tired of being messed with, turned and initiated the real confrontation....and got shot for his efforts.
I believe that is what the police found at the scene and why they did not arrest Zimmerman in the first place.
All those wanting Z arrested should really question themselves on why that is.
- do the facts support arrest?
- are you really railing against guns and gun laws?
- are you racially motivated to support one theory over another?
- are you so emotionally involved that it is clouding your analytical thinking?
Politically generated arrests are no different than racially motivated ones....do you support one and not the other?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
wlsc 0
QuoteQuote
To survive you've got to live in the real world. In the real world black people get accosted far more than 'whites'. This case is just the tip of a very nasty iceberg. The end result is a prison system full of black folks. Shame but true.
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
You are agreeing with my statement then that in the real world black people get accosted far more than others.
davjohns 1
I tried to do some research on this over the weekend. Very few facts. Lots of talk.
I can't even find the shooter's story. The background of the young man is unknown. We have no idea what happened, that I can tell. Yet, there are so many conclusions out there (and on here).
I can't even find the shooter's story. The background of the young man is unknown. We have no idea what happened, that I can tell. Yet, there are so many conclusions out there (and on here).
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
Coreece 190
QuoteAgain, I state that most of American seems to think it is OK to shoot someone for fuck all reason.
You make some relatively decent arguments and then make stupid comments like these that undermine them...leave that stuff to wlsc.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
RonD1120 58
Quote
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
You are agreeing with my statement then that in the real world black people get accosted far more than others.
Blacks are aggressive toward other blacks, the violence tends to be in the environment of gang bangers, gangstas, thugs, drug dealers/consumers, etc.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
davjohns 1
"The latest demand came from the New Black Panther Party, which on Saturday offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman's capture. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," New Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad said when asked whether the offer could incite violence, the Orlando Sentinel reported.
At rallies held in solidarity with Martin's family, people have sold T-shirts featuring pictures of Zimmerman below a large "WANTED" sign. And Sonner said he and Zimmerman have received death threats."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-20120325,0,768039.story
At rallies held in solidarity with Martin's family, people have sold T-shirts featuring pictures of Zimmerman below a large "WANTED" sign. And Sonner said he and Zimmerman have received death threats."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-20120325,0,768039.story
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
RonD1120 58
Quote"The latest demand came from the New Black Panther Party, which on Saturday offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman's capture. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," New Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad said when asked whether the offer could incite violence, the Orlando Sentinel reported.
At rallies held in solidarity with Martin's family, people have sold T-shirts featuring pictures of Zimmerman below a large "WANTED" sign. And Sonner said he and Zimmerman have received death threats."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-20120325,0,768039.story
Some years back I remember some commentator somewhere state that blacks are going to have to work harder to maintain their number one persecuted minority status because Hispanics and Latinos were growing rapidly and taking over the slot.
People earn a living studying and predicting social phenomena, trends, injustices and the like. They are probably drafting federal grant proposals as we speak.
Sharpton, the first on the scene, and Jackson exacerbate these unfortunate incidents. I believe they do it for personal gain. As the saying goes, "Never let a good crisis go to waste."
I have no opinion until after the grand jury finding.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
wlsc 0
QuoteQuote
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
You are agreeing with my statement then that in the real world black people get accosted far more than others.
Blacks are aggressive toward other blacks, the violence tends to be in the environment of gang bangers, gangstas, thugs, drug dealers/consumers, etc.
Now add on all the accostings from whites and it's pretty obvious that black folk have a tougher time than most.
Quote
Again...for the non-comprehenders:
"Nothing in 'stand your ground' authorizes (you) to pursue and confront,"
There is nothing in the law that prohibits anybody (gun bearer or not) from pursuing or confronting anybody else.
We may never know the true story of what happened, as only one person is alive to tell his side of the story. It seems established that Zimmerman pursued. Did he confront? Unknown.
Is pursuit provocation? Well, it certainly does not legally justify assault of any kind unless there is a threat but if somebody is pursuing me, yes, I believe they are provoking some kind of action.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
QuoteQuote
To survive you've got to live in the real world. In the real world black people get accosted far more than 'whites'.
Now when you say this, are you basing it on actual data? Gut feel? Race driven rage?
You've made many sweeping statements based on thin air...any substance to back them?
There are many, many academic studies documenting differential treatment of blacks at every step of the penal system.
Here are just a few but literally I could list links all day:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=XCzu5AUda44C&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=differential+treatment+of+blacks+by+police&ots=bPOXCKO8o7&sig=cA1iDuBCzTrqUrju4bqY1sNaQ2g#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/polic17&div=11&id=&page=
http://cjr.sagepub.com/content/36/1/5.short
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
Coreece 190
Ok, I think everyone needs to pull the butt plug from their collective ass and decrease the systolic pressure to about 2 PSI...
Here's a list of what I think are legitimate concerns brought about by this case:
-A young man is dead and nobody knows why.
-People are concerned that anybody can just go out, start shit, get in a confrontation, kill someone and then get away with it based on self defense.
-People are concerned that others can just claim racism, make it a black and white issue, post an evil mean picture of the white guy, and cute old baby pictures of the black guy in an obvious attempt to appeal to public emotion, intensify racial tension and manipulate justice.
-People are concerned how this incident might negatively and unnecessarily affect gun laws.
-People are concerned how this case is being use to gain political clout and further various agendas.
Now for those that don't understand these concerns, you can always take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up it your bed and believe whatever you want to believe...you can even adopt wlsc's useless and lazy philosophical argument of 2+2=4 and do nothing to help the cause, if that makes you feel better.
Here's a list of what I think are legitimate concerns brought about by this case:
-A young man is dead and nobody knows why.
-People are concerned that anybody can just go out, start shit, get in a confrontation, kill someone and then get away with it based on self defense.
-People are concerned that others can just claim racism, make it a black and white issue, post an evil mean picture of the white guy, and cute old baby pictures of the black guy in an obvious attempt to appeal to public emotion, intensify racial tension and manipulate justice.
-People are concerned how this incident might negatively and unnecessarily affect gun laws.
-People are concerned how this case is being use to gain political clout and further various agendas.
Now for those that don't understand these concerns, you can always take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up it your bed and believe whatever you want to believe...you can even adopt wlsc's useless and lazy philosophical argument of 2+2=4 and do nothing to help the cause, if that makes you feel better.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuote
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
You are agreeing with my statement then that in the real world black people get accosted far more than others.
Blacks are aggressive toward other blacks, the violence tends to be in the environment of gang bangers, gangstas, thugs, drug dealers/consumers, etc.
Now add on all the accostings from whites and it's pretty obvious that black folk have a tougher time than most.
So, it appears (based on your comments) that if they left themselves alone things would be closer or closer to be the same as whites?
So they are there own worst enemies it seems
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
wlsc 0
2+2 isn't lazy argument. It's a mathematical fact. Deny it all you want. There is blindingly obvious racism within the prison system (and earlier back to the school system).
QuoteBut if he was the guy who started the situation that led to his feeling as though he was in danger, does that mean that he still gets to use deadly force without question?
Wendy P.
That's my problem, Wendy. The shooter was, it seems, the attacker. The provoker. He provoked a confrontation, received a confrontation, then escalated to the use of deadly force.
I find that unacceptable.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Coreece 190
your argument is that racism exists...that's all.
wow, you're a genius.
wow, you're a genius.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
wlsc 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
You are agreeing with my statement then that in the real world black people get accosted far more than others.
Blacks are aggressive toward other blacks, the violence tends to be in the environment of gang bangers, gangstas, thugs, drug dealers/consumers, etc.
Now add on all the accostings from whites and it's pretty obvious that black folk have a tougher time than most.
So, it appears (based on your comments) that if they left themselves alone things would be closer or closer to be the same as whites?
There being many more whites than blacks this is not the case.
QuoteIt seems established that Zimmerman pursued. Did he confront? Unknown.
Considering that much of the debate centers around "stand your ground" I think that pursuing a person kinda vitiates the whole "stand your ground" thing.
Also, it seems that if he was pursuing the guy he didn't think the guy had a weapon or would use it.
There are all kinds of inferences in this thing. I don't think that Zimmerman was out there looking to shoot anybody. I don't think he was out there looking for a fight. I DO think, however, he ended up causing this event.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteThere is blindingly obvious racism within the prison system
Sure there is racism within the prison system. Ever see what goes on in there? Clear racial division lines of white, black, latino, asian. If you ever what to see what a racially divided society looks like, take a trip to someplace like Corcoran.
The issue becomes - what it the cause of this racism? Do you point your finger at whitey for it? Or is there plenty of blame to go around for all?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
davjohns 1
QuoteQuoteBut if he was the guy who started the situation that led to his feeling as though he was in danger, does that mean that he still gets to use deadly force without question?
Wendy P.
That's my problem, Wendy. The shooter was, it seems, the attacker. The provoker. He provoked a confrontation, received a confrontation, then escalated to the use of deadly force.
I find that unacceptable.
I can't find anything that says the shooter was the attacker. Where is that? Everything I found says he claims self defense. I know he was neighborhood watch, called the police, and followed the guy. Then, he claimed something happened that caused him to defend himself. I haven't been able to find what his story is or eye witness accounts.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.
DaVinci 0
QuoteSince you are making stuff up
Yeah, not made up.... Blood from the nose and the back of his head.
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf
DaVinci 0
QuoteThere are many more facts than what you stated.
And there are many more facts than what you stated.
* Zimmerman was found bleeding.
*Trayvons Father stated that he didn't think the cries for help were from his son.
*The dispatcher never ordered Zimmerman to not follow. They said "You don't have to do that sir". That is a far cry from an 'order'
* Dispatchers do not have any legal authority to give an order.
* Treyvon was suspended for school for 5-10 days. the details have not be released and his family;s lawyer is working to prevent that information from being released.
So maybe both sides are talking before they know the facts?
Here in FL, Tampa Bay Area, most black folks are accosted by black folks.
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