mnealtx 0 #51 January 11, 2012 Nice writeup, Joe. Kimber, Wilson Combat and Springfield Armory all have good basic guns in the same rough price range. A 38 snubby or something like a Keltec or LCP is a good backup gun, or for when there's no way you can carry full-sized. Gotta disgree on the caliber part, though - you're going to get .60+ expansion and 12"+ penetration from any premium SD ammo from 9mm on up.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #52 January 11, 2012 For consideration, the rule of 3's. The bad guy will be within 3 yards and you have 3 seconds to fire 3 rounds. I carry a 9mm Springfield 3.5 XD(M) loaded with personal protection ammo i.e., hollow points. It is a bit heavy but I have gotten use to it. My son carried a 1911 .45 ACP and found it to be way to bulky and difficult to conceal. He switched to a Ruger Double Action LCR, .38 Special. It weighs 13 ozs. and carries easily in trouser pockets. One of my PGR buddies carries the Ruger LC9 9mm. It carries easily in his inside vest pocket. The LC9 weighs 17.5 ozs.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie 3 #53 January 11, 2012 i believe he said "sawed off" shotgun. i had one with a 12" barrel that had a spread of about 4 feet from 25 feet. while i have not fired a shotgun with an 18" barrel, i would have to respectfully disagree with the pattern being able to be covered by your hand from 15 yards or less as i have a mossberg with a 24" barrel that will spread slightly bigger than that from 25 feet. of course that would be dependant on the size of the choke, the size of the gauge, and the size of the shot.http://kitswv.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 51 #54 January 11, 2012 Quote I also like my S&W Sigma .40VE, some people hate them for the heavy trigger pull, but I am OK with it. They are also very affordable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #55 January 11, 2012 Quote It weighs 13 ozs. and carries easily in trouser pockets. And here I thought he was just glad to see me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #56 January 11, 2012 QuoteMaybe you should reconsider your views... http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/sexcrimes/. Did you just relate checking out boobies with your wife to a sex crime? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,060 #57 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteMaybe you should reconsider your views... http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/sexcrimes/. Did you just relate checking out boobies with your wife to a sex crime? I relate your comment knocking the preparedness game as a foolish "head buried in the sand" endeavor just because you live in the supposedly great safe frozen tundra and was sharing your local site on the number of sex crimes as enlightenment. Course, I like to be prepared to grab the SO's boobies as much as the next guy (or girl), but that doesn't prevent me from thinking about grabbing a gun to protect my boobies either.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #58 January 11, 2012 Just a thought... you and your wife could visit you gun dealer and let her test fire various handguns and see what she likes. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #59 January 11, 2012 QuoteI relate your comment knocking the preparedness game as a foolish "head buried in the sand" endeavor just because you live in the supposedly great safe frozen tundra and was sharing your local site on the number of sex crimes as enlightenment. Ahh ok. Toronto is one of the safest large cities in North America. What we coined as the "year of the gun" was a year with 52 gun homocides in a population of 2.5 million. Crime rates have been falling pretty consistently, even though guns are more or less banned. I'm happy I live in a place where I am not subjected to the constant fear that is projected by many on this forum. I am happy that my daily conversations with my wife, leading a busy life, are not about death, killing and self preservation, but about more enjoyable things. Like boobies, and which bottle of wine to open with dinner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dclabounty 0 #60 January 11, 2012 Just FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,060 #61 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteI relate your comment knocking the preparedness game as a foolish "head buried in the sand" endeavor just because you live in the supposedly great safe frozen tundra and was sharing your local site on the number of sex crimes as enlightenment. Ahh ok. Toronto is one of the safest large cities in North America. What we coined as the "year of the gun" was a year with 52 gun homocides in a population of 2.5 million. Crime rates have been falling pretty consistently, even though guns are more or less banned. I'm happy I live in a place where I am not subjected to the constant fear that is projected by many on this forum. I am happy that my daily conversations with my wife, leading a busy life, are not about death, killing and self preservation, but about more enjoyable things. Like boobies, and which bottle of wine to open with dinner. According to http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/publications/files/reports/2010statsreport.pdf There are some snippets attached.... one cannot just think "homicides" which it would appear that last year was a +10 over your "Year of the Gun."Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #62 January 11, 2012 QuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #63 January 11, 2012 I'm learning a lot from all the postings on this. I once thought of getting a 22 magnum in a pistol. With that short of a barrel wouldn't there be too much muzzle flash and unburned powder? I like the reliability and simplicity of a revolver...but that trigger pull in double action is awful...I like an automatics light pull. On my S&W auto, the safety is a real pain to reach, (with the thumb of my shooting hand). I've got in the habit of using my supporting hand (thumb) to manipulate the safety, and slide release. If you shoot one handed that wouldn't work though. I have a lot to learn about combat shooting. When watching an instructor shoot he didn't use the slide release lever at all. When a new clip was put in, he pulled the slide back and released it to chamber a round. Is that method more reliable? It seems easier and quicker to just touch the slide release lever.... My next trip to Billings we'll try out some different pistols. We plan to move to another area of the country, when I retire in a couple years. Most of these oil workers are decent enough people. There are also large number of scum bags....That woman teacher is still missing. The searching is still going on. We know a nice Morman family who live close to us. They have five little girls. Across the street from them is a motel filled entirely with oil workers. We see them outside smoking cigarettes and drinking. You'd have a hard time finding scarier looking men. At any rate this nice Morman lady, is now packing a concealed pistol. I'm sure she would like to take her family and move to Toronto....but for now she is stuck in N.E. Montana. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #64 January 11, 2012 Well, lets put this all into perspective. We'll take your link and the numbers I found in this link: http://www.tulsapolice.org/content/crime-numbers-ucr.aspx#totals 2010 UDC crime reported (for Toronto Violent Crime and Property Crime in an effort to make it comparable) Tulsa: 25,663 Toronto: 126,084 (The Toronto numbers have double counted incidents, where one incident can be reported under multiple headings, I don't know if the UDC data does that) Population: Tulsa: 391,906 Toronto: 2,503,281 Population Metropolitan Area: Tulsa: 937,478 Toronto: 5,500,000 (2006 data)* *also leaves out a further 700,000 people living in 2 cities directly attached to the GTA. So for the sake of this comparison let's peg the number at 6,000,000. So we have an incredible metropolitan area, roughly 6 times larger then your relatively rural setting. Our crime rates, according to conventional wisdom, should be significantly higher than in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Clearly they are not. You would be even more surpised when you filter out maybe 2 or 3 neighbourhoods in Toronto. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #65 January 11, 2012 QuoteWe know a nice Morman family who live close to us. They have five little girls. Across the street from them is a motel filled entirely with oil workers. We see them outside smoking cigarettes and drinking. You'd have a hard time finding scarier looking men. I thought this thread was about CCL's not "Scary Oil Field Trash" I'm the scary looking guys supervisor, and supervise everything that goes on while we're drilling the well, etc...Since when does guys hanging around drinking beer and smoking cigarettes become a charachter judgement???? You make it sound like these gentleman are ready to rape, pillage & plunder the entire village. Stop It.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #66 January 11, 2012 Quote Stop It. Sorry, this just reminds me of a family guy segment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPYdeif17lo Carry on...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #67 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. Belt fed, even more so....... Awkward, tho. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #68 January 11, 2012 Open carry is a deterrent, it is also to have your gun snatched from you in a struggle if you don't know how to guard against it. I wish I had the option to open carry, it is legal in CT but you would still get the cops called would run the risk of getting your permit pulled for causing a disturbance. There are other situations where I like having no one the wiser."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #69 January 11, 2012 Since the oil boom...the crime rate has quadrupled in Williston. There are like 140 new drilling permits around the small town I live in. No back ground check or drug check is given most of these new workers, simply because they can't get enough help. They often hire about anyone with a heart beat, and hope they work out. I don't know what oil workers you supervise, but it probably isn't here. These workers aren't all nice people. No smoking cigarettes and drinking is not a sign of violent intent....but at the same time first impressions are often accurate. Our town has gone from a place where you didn't even lock your doors to a place where your neighbor is kidnapped, raped, and murdered. No, I won't stop it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #70 January 11, 2012 QuoteOpen carry is a deterrent, it is also to have your gun snatched from you in a struggle if you don't know how to guard against it. I wish I had the option to open carry, it is legal in CT but you would still get the cops called would run the risk of getting your permit pulled for causing a disturbance. There are other situations where I like having no one the wiser. A truism.... Concealed carry is my preference. Educating ones enemies is a not a strategy I care for. Letting anyone get that close to you is also a no no in the cop manuals. Situations can get fluid, tho. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,060 #71 January 11, 2012 QuoteWell, lets put this all into perspective. We'll take your link and the numbers I found in this link: http://www.tulsapolice.org/content/crime-numbers-ucr.aspx#totals 2010 UDC crime reported (for Toronto Violent Crime and Property Crime in an effort to make it comparable) Tulsa: 25,663 Toronto: 126,084 (The Toronto numbers have double counted incidents, where one incident can be reported under multiple headings, I don't know if the UDC data does that) Population: Tulsa: 391,906 Toronto: 2,503,281 Population Metropolitan Area: Tulsa: 937,478 Toronto: 5,500,000 (2006 data)* *also leaves out a further 700,000 people living in 2 cities directly attached to the GTA. So for the sake of this comparison let's peg the number at 6,000,000. So we have an incredible metropolitan area, roughly 6 times larger then your relatively rural setting. Our crime rates, according to conventional wisdom, should be significantly higher than in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Clearly they are not. You would be even more surpised when you filter out maybe 2 or 3 neighbourhoods in Toronto. I acknowledge Tulsa's crime statistics. Hence, the tactical scenario training, then wine, then boobies. There's a high probability that you will not have a canopy collision, but that doesn't prevent you from keeping your head on a swivel. Same principle... it doesn't hurt to have situational awareness no matter what the "statistics." Consider that you have a greater chance of getting shot than you do of winning the lottery, but you'll buy the lottery tickets as preparation to win. Conversely, you'll not prepare yourself for the greater probability of being shot.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #72 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuote There is a very chilling effect when one hears a round being racked into a pump style shot gun No mistaking that sound I had a former Marine tactical weapons trainer tell me once that the racking of a pump shotgun slide is a universal sound of danger.. And in my house that is the sound that the second intruder would here unless his ears were ringing too bad from the first shotYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #73 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteJust FYI Concealed is not your only option if you decide on a full frame handgun...Open Carry is legal in Montana. I agree, open carry is much more of a deterent. No, not really. With OC, the criminals know *exactly* who is armed and who is not. With CC, they don't know who *might* be armed.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #74 January 11, 2012 QuoteSince when does guys hanging around drinking beer and smoking cigarettes become a charachter judgement???? You make it sound like these gentleman are ready to rape, pillage & plunder the entire village. Stop It. Well, like it or not the reality is... Compare: - the indicated workers vs - suits, ties polished wing-tips, clean cut, articulate... Who would be deemed more likely to do stupid shit? Right or wrong, that's the way it is in this world.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #75 January 11, 2012 Quotei believe he said "sawed off" shotgun. i had one with a 12" barrel that had a spread of about 4 feet from 25 feet. while i have not fired a shotgun with an 18" barrel, i would have to respectfully disagree with the pattern being able to be covered by your hand from 15 yards or less as i have a mossberg with a 24" barrel that will spread slightly bigger than that from 25 feet. of course that would be dependant on the size of the choke, the size of the gauge, and the size of the shot. Sorry - should have said 15 feet, not 15 yards. I assumed a modern production short-barrelled shotgun and not a cut job, since most people call *any* short-barrelled shotgun 'sawed off'. The first pic (courtesy of box-o-truth) is from a 12 gauge, #1 buck, 19.5 inch barrel, no choke. Approximately 12 foot range. Second attachment is 00 buck, also from boxotruth. Third attachment is from a different person, different test... 00 buck from an actual cut down barrel - 18.5 inches. As you can see, it's not the 'room-filling cloud of death' that people think it is.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
