How much responsibility does Terry Jones have for the massacre in Afghanistan
By
likearock, in Speakers Corner
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QuoteYou've got to be kidding me, right ? Let's see.... you supplied Saddam Hussein with weapons to kill my people, the Iranians during the 1980s war.
How right you are.
The ship I was on returned to the Gulf in 1981 and was there for several months. During that time night flight ops went on near every night. Fully loaded aircraft left and then return lite... ??? It doesn't take a genius to figure out what we were doing there.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
Former Reagan administration National Security Council staff member Howard Teicher says that after Ronald Reagan signed a national security decision directive calling for the U.S. to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq's defeat in the Iran-Iraq war, Director of Central Intelligence William Casey personally led efforts to ensure that Iraq had sufficient weapons, including cluster bombs, and that the U.S. provided Iraq with financial credits, intelligence, and strategic military advice. The CIA also provided Iraq, through third parties that included Israel and Egypt, with military hardware compatible with its Soviet-origin weaponry.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
QuoteQuoteQuoteHow about we just leave Afghanistan ? It's useless to be there. No army has ever conquered Afghanistan. Also, could we be considered animals for what we have done in Iraq ?
And what have WE done in Iraq that we should be considered animals for? Who is "we" BTW, have you been to Iraq?
And our reasons for being in Afghanistan have nothing to do with conquering the country, there is a lot more at stake there than most people realize.
You've got to be kidding me, right ? Let's see.... you supplied Saddam Hussein with weapons to kill my people, the Iranians during the 1980s war. (costed my uncle his life) Then you turn a blind eye when we bombs the shi** out of the Kurds, then go you and invade the country and kill over 100,000 civilians...
Maybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
quade 3
QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Wait, I thought people in this thread said there was no such thing as causality that transcended time and space. Isn't that what we're arguing here?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
GeorgiaDon 340
And maybe "your people" (who are also my people) should think twice before overthrowing a democratically elected government and imposing a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of civilians during a reign of terror that lasted more than two decades, supported the whole time by US (double meaning intended). For the sake of oil, we destroyed the first democracy in that part of the world, and so much of the trouble that has followed is just reaping what we sowed in 1953.QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
QuoteAnd maybe "your people" (who are also my people) should think twice before overthrowing a democratically elected government and imposing a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of civilians during a reign of terror that lasted more than two decades, supported the whole time by US (double meaning intended). For the sake of oil, we destroyed the first democracy in that part of the world, and so much of the trouble that has followed is just reaping what we sowed in 1953.QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Don
Right and after "your people" threw the Shah out, look at what "your people" replaced him with.
rushmc 18
QuoteAnd maybe "your people" (who are also my people) should think twice before overthrowing a democratically elected government and imposing a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of civilians during a reign of terror that lasted more than two decades, supported the whole time by US (double meaning intended). For the sake of oil, we destroyed the first democracy in that part of the world, and so much of the trouble that has followed is just reaping what we sowed in 1953.QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Don
Hmmm
When did we start, or ever get any oil out of this?
Answer?
Never
has not happened
Next
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
wolfriverjoe 1,340
QuoteQuoteAnd maybe "your people" (who are also my people) should think twice before overthrowing a democratically elected government and imposing a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of civilians during a reign of terror that lasted more than two decades, supported the whole time by US (double meaning intended). For the sake of oil, we destroyed the first democracy in that part of the world, and so much of the trouble that has followed is just reaping what we sowed in 1953.QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Don
Hmmm
When did we start, or ever get any oil out of this?
Answer?
Never
has not happened
Next
Really?
We didn't get any oil from Iran between the 50's and 1979?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd maybe "your people" (who are also my people) should think twice before overthrowing a democratically elected government and imposing a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of civilians during a reign of terror that lasted more than two decades, supported the whole time by US (double meaning intended). For the sake of oil, we destroyed the first democracy in that part of the world, and so much of the trouble that has followed is just reaping what we sowed in 1953.QuoteMaybe "your people" should think twice before taking innocent American Diplomats hostage.
Don
Hmmm
When did we start, or ever get any oil out of this?
Answer?
Never
has not happened
Next
Really?
We didn't get any oil from Iran between the 50's and 1979?
Just what we purchased
as per normal
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
GeorgiaDon 340
An entirely predictable result of the fact that the only place that was not completely infiltrated with the SAVAK (the Iranian secret police) was the mosques. This had the consequence of forcing the association of political dissent against the Shah with the religious leadership, and virtually ensured that any possible replacement for the Shah would be dominated by Islamic fundamentalists. Interestingly, SAVAK was founded by the CIA, and their tactics of torture and execution of political dissidents was initiated, and supported through the duration of the Shah's reign, by the CIA.Quote
Right and after "your people" threw the Shah out, look at what "your people" replaced him with.
The Iranian revolution, and the regime that resulted, is the bastard child of US foreign policy from the 1950s through the 1970s. Why did the US destroy a democracy, led by a Western educated and indeed pro-Western leader (prime minister Mosaddegh)? As a legacy of British occupation of Iran (Persia at the time), British Petroleum (now BP) was extracting large amounts of oil from Iranian territory without paying royalties to the Iranian government. Mosaddegh initially tried to negotiate royalty payments with BP, but when he was rebuffed he moved to nationalize the Iranian oil industry. Diplomats in the British embassy tried to organize a coup against him, but they were discovered and expelled. At that point the CIA took over the operation. So the primary motivation for the operation was ensuring Western access to cheap oil.
Also, I am an American, not Iranian, and the US is "my people". Unlike many of the right-wing-leaning types who post here in SC, though, I believe it is worthwhile to examine the past to see what worked and what screwed up royally, so we can learn from our mistakes. Operation Ajax was a disaster that has made the Middle East a much more dangerous place, and it underlies much (though not all) of the anti-US sentiment in that part of the world. I believe that we are off, in the long run, to allow countries to control, or at least to benefit from resources within their territorial boundaries. I also think a useful lesson it that it is usually better to allow societies to develop in their own way, at their own pace; the best way to try to influence outcomes by providing an example of the benefits of our political and economic systems that they can see and emulate if they so choose. That worked well in Eastern Europe, which discarded Soviet rule through home-grown efforts inspired by knowledge of economic and political disparities with their Western European neighbors. Indeed, many of Gorbachev's ideas the led to the dismantling of the Soviet communist system came from his time spent in the West, which shows the value of allowing people from all over the world access to Western education.
Sometimes being a good citizen means admitting that we screwed up, and vowing not to make the same mistake again. The notion that America never gets anything wrong is simple minded, against America's long-term interests, and so is actually unpatriotic, IMHO.
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
[Reply]C'mon, Jerry, what awful analogies. The King jurors (to take one example) did not act with the intent to incite a riot.
Rosa Parks did. Or at least acts of violence. It was planned out that she did what she did.
Gandhi got his protesters to DELIBERATELY provoke British forces into beating them but to NOT defend themselves. For this he is considered a great man of peace.
There are nuances but putting "100%" of the blame of a person who was across the world weeks ago is stupid. There are actually sick and violent assholes in this world who like to blame everyone and everything but themselves. How many wives and girlfriends out there have been told that they MADE their boyfriends and husbands beat them? The jerks who won't accept any culpability.
It's why I hate Stalin and Mao more than Marx. Sure, they used Marx's ideas as a justification for their actions that made Hitler look amateur but in the end. I don't blame Macchiavelli for the brutal dictator. Nor do I blame Jones for the deaths of people. Instead I put the blame at those who actually acted on it.
Andy - you are a reasonable person. Thus far, as far as I know, you've avoided a murderous rampage even though I'm sure that people have said some pretty insulting stuff. I don't think Terry Jones or anybody else could say anything that would cause you to do that. Yet when assholes act like assholes and use Terry Jones as the reason - well it's his fault?
Hogwash.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Nobody ever said the US doesn't ever get it wrong. We get it wrong quite a bit of the time for various reasons. Sometimes our mistakes are viewed as wrong only because the outcome isn't what we wanted it to be.
My response was to why we supported Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Of course I'm sure you will find a way to blame the US for starting that war too.
My response was to why we supported Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Of course I'm sure you will find a way to blame the US for starting that war too.
Andy9o8 0
Quoteas far as I know, you've avoided a murderous rampage
As far as you know.
QuoteYet when assholes act like assholes and use Terry Jones as the reason - well it's his fault?
We're not going to agree on this; yet having thought this through, I feel strongly that Jones shares a certain amount of moral responsibility, and should be condemned for that.
SkyDekker 1,123
QuoteOr how bout we point the finger at the cave-dwelling jackholes that think violence is an acceptable answer to somebody having a dissenting opinion of your religious views? Everybody in this part of the world is an over-sensitive baby, they cry over the slightest thing and feel that violence is the only way to make up for it. I've seen families kill each other over here over things so minuscule most right minded people wouldn't give it a second look. There is a reason this region is still living in the stone age despite having the natural resources to thrive.
People in the US kill eachother almost daily for "disrespecting" some one.
How many people in the western world would react violently if their buttons are pushed? How long would I have lived if I walked into a New York bar frequented by fire fighters in October of 2001 and loudly proclaimed that fire fighters are stupid and deserve to die?
Just because the buttons are differently doesn't mean we are not inherently the same, with many of the same primal reactions.
GeorgiaDon 340
I think the US had more reason to support Saddam in that war, besides just having our nose out of joint regarding the hostage situation. My understanding is that we felt it necessary to prevent the regime in Iran from spreading to Iraq, and possibly further. I know of no reason to blame the US for starting that war. It would have been preferable, in hindsight, had we followed through with support for anti-Saddam factions after the war ended and our aims in the region (containing Iran) were achieved. Of course at the time Saddam was "our guy"; he only became a "dangerous madman" later, when it was politically expedient for him to be so labeled.QuoteMy response was to why we supported Saddam Hussein in the war against Iran. Of course I'm sure you will find a way to blame the US for starting that war too.
Your reply suggest that if someone criticizes the US for one thing, then they automatically must be anti-US in all things. That's just the sort of narrow-minded "my country right or wrong" patriotism that dissuades people from objectively analyzing outcomes, so as to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over. If you actually cared about a person, or a country, you wouldn't want them to keep repeating the same dysfunctional behaviors, would you?
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Your assumptions are completely unfounded and incorrect.
QuoteThe people of Afghanistan live totally different lifestyles than we do. There is no Walmart, there is no target, there's not ANYYYTHING. These people cling to religion because that is the only thing they have in that country. Terry is 100% responsible for what went on. He's been warned about what this could do. And as far as the Qur'an being guilty of murder, rape etc. I think he should go read his own book and put that one on "Trial".
So ifa some left-winger burned an American Flag and a militia group went on a rampage killing dozens of people, would you assign 100% blame to the flag burner?
DaVinci 0
QuoteHe has the right to say whatever he wants, but if what he says incites rioting and deaths, he's at least in some way responsible....
but he is absolutely responsible for inciting a riot.
He did not incite a riot. He was no where near Afghanistan.
The people who incited the riots was the,"radical leader" that told those gathered that multiple Korans had been burned.
The radical leader incited the riot. Jones just did something stupid for publicity. Evidence is that there were no riots when Jones burned the books, and that the protest was peaceful UNTIL the "radical leader" started trouble.
muff528 3
QuoteQuoteThe people of Afghanistan live totally different lifestyles than we do. There is no Walmart, there is no target, there's not ANYYYTHING. These people cling to religion because that is the only thing they have in that country. Terry is 100% responsible for what went on. He's been warned about what this could do. And as far as the Qur'an being guilty of murder, rape etc. I think he should go read his own book and put that one on "Trial".
So ifa some left-winger burned an American Flag and a militia group went on a rampage killing dozens of people, would you assign 100% blame to the flag burner?
Don't be silly. It has already been determined that burning the US flag is an acceptable form of protest protected by the 1st Amendment. The "militia group" would be committing a capital crime by killing folks who were not even involved in the burning. In contrast, the protesters in Afghanistan were just doing what they were "supposed to do" by defending the Koran. Perfectly lawful and probably mandatory. Also, IMO, I seriously doubt that burning a bible on Jones doorstep would get you killed and certainly would not get a bunch of non-involved people killed. (You might get killed while you were trespassing and starting a fire at his front door, though)
Niki1 1
QuoteQuoteThe guy is a friggin jackass.
Terry Jones and his supporters are world class Jackasses. But there is no excuse for what these animals in Afghanistan have done. Freedom of religion is still worth pursuing, but so is freedom from religion.
I think the Afganis (?) should have responded by burning a bunch of Bibles. The way they did react just "proved the point."
Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis
Where are we going and why are we in this basket?
Louis D Brandeis
Where are we going and why are we in this basket?
Quote
How long would I have lived if I walked into a New York bar frequented by fire fighters in October of 2001 and loudly proclaimed that fire fighters are stupid and deserve to die?
Probably for a long time. No one would kill you for saying that much less start a riot and kill multiple people based on their nationality and race. You might get your ass kicked at worse.
Hell, we saw videos of Muslims celebrating in the street after 9/11 and I don't recall an organized group of Americans burning mosques and slaughtering Muslims.
Stop trying to compare us to them. There is no comparison.
winsor 186
I think whoever it was that burnt a copy of Mein Kapmpf should be held accountable for the Holocaust. It is obviously their fault.
Okay, okay, Godwin - I know...
Okay, okay, Godwin - I know...
You've got to be kidding me, right ? Let's see.... you supplied Saddam Hussein with weapons to kill my people, the Iranians during the 1980s war. (costed my uncle his life) Then you turn a blind eye when we bombs the shi** out of the Kurds, then go you and invade the country and kill over 100,000 civilians...
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