JohnnyMarko 1 #26 February 22, 2011 Hi Steve -JB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #27 February 22, 2011 Hello JohnnyBoy!"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #28 February 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteFucking Righteous. It's laudable when people risk so much to do the right thing. Would you still say that if it turns out that the protesters are Islamist extremists trying to over throw the government? Yes. Bombing your own countrymen is usually a bad idea. How about a surgical strike on the Westboro Baptist Church headquarters? I take it you'd be all for it? Hmmm.... Still thinking.... Tempting....When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #29 February 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Fucking Righteous. It's laudable when people risk so much to do the right thing. Would you still say that if it turns out that the protesters are Islamist extremists trying to over throw the government? Yes. Bombing your own countrymen is usually a bad idea. How about a surgical strike on the Westboro Baptist Church headquarters? I take it you'd be all for it? Hmmm.... Still thinking It'd be a close call for most of us!!"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #30 February 22, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Fucking Righteous. It's laudable when people risk so much to do the right thing. Would you still say that if it turns out that the protesters are Islamist extremists trying to over throw the government? Yes. Bombing your own countrymen is usually a bad idea. How about a surgical strike on the Westboro Baptist Church headquarters? I take it you'd be all for it? Hmmm.... Still thinking It'd be a close call for most of us!! Agreed.I've heard worse ideas."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #31 February 23, 2011 QuoteIf he doesn't have popular support he WILL fall.. Quote That's an extremely optimistic outlook. He doesn't have to have popular support to succeed, he just needs to inflict enough carnage that the masses are cowed into neutrality. And for that al lhe really needs is the support of enough of the miltiary. Fortuntely, these defections seem to cast some doubt on that. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #32 February 23, 2011 a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mircan 0 #33 February 23, 2011 Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect?dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vanair 0 #34 February 23, 2011 I'm in. Just read google report on them. Assholes, I'm in for a hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #35 February 23, 2011 In my country, it is expected that you follow the orders, except if you feel they are blatantly wrong. Guess that's what the Su22 Pilots who ejected today were thinking too scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #36 February 23, 2011 In the US the enlisted oath says that you will follow orders in accordance with the UCMJ. An order to kill protesting citizens (in the US) is generally not lawful under UCMJ. If they are trying to break into the armory, you can defend it, but dropping bombs on them would not be lawful in most circumstances. Officers swear a slightly different oath (no clause about obeying orders), but are still not bound to obey unconstitutional orders. Bombing civilians for exercising their consitutional rights is probably an order you can disobey. Officer: Quote“I, (state your name), having been appointed a (rank) in the United States (branch of service), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God.” Enlisted: QuoteI, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vanair 0 #37 February 23, 2011 In the military we were taught to follow lawful orders. Meaning we should refuse if it was wrong i.e being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #38 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect? Not trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #39 February 23, 2011 Quote a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump and people complain about price of jumptickets.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #40 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump and people complain about price of jumptickets.. So, they owe beer, right?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,122 #41 February 23, 2011 QuoteNot trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. You just made an argument against the right to guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #42 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote Quote http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-protests-malta-idUSTRE71K52R20110221 I'm glad they did the right thing. Surprised to see you supporting Al-Jama’a al-Islamiyyah al-Muqatilah bi-Libya. I'll have to get you a 'I love Al Quieda' T-shirt for your birthday. How was being glad the pilots refused orders to blow up their own countrymen that were doing a protest the same as what you claim above?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #43 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect? Not trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. That is the brillance of the private armies like Blackwater/XE and the group that took over police duties in Montana. They are not hobbled with those sill restrictions of shooting those who do not agree to get with THEIR program or ideaology. (Queue Kennedy to come in and defend his heros.. who would NEVER do anything like that.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #44 February 24, 2011 QuoteIn the military we were taught to follow lawful orders. Meaning we should refuse if it was wrong i.e being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. example - the Kent State shootings or My Lai. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vanair 0 #45 February 24, 2011 Not a perfect system, but better then (German accent) I was just following Orders, They would shoot me if I didn't obey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #46 February 24, 2011 Quoteif Gaddafi doesn't have the support of this military, he WILL fall. Apparently that may be less cut-and-dried in Libya than in some other countries (e.g., Egypt). Please see article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12558066 QuoteLibya: Who is propping up Gaddafi? Unlike in Egypt or Tunisia, it is not the conventional military that holds the balance of power in Libya. Instead, it is a murky network of paramilitary brigades, "revolutionary committees" of trusted followers, tribal leaders and imported foreign mercenaries. The actual Libyan Army is almost symbolic, a weakened and emaciated force of little more than 40,000, poorly armed and poorly trained. It is part of Col Muammar Gaddafi's long-term strategy to eliminate the risk of a military coup, which is how he himself came to power in 1969. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #47 February 24, 2011 Foreign Mercenaries in the Middle East: A Brief History When you're a scumbag dictator intent on nothing more than holding onto power and stealing as much as you can, trusting the locals is a bad idea. That's why he uses foreigners, particularly Brits in days gone by. Now it's anyone desperate enough and amoral enough to take the money. And it's supposed to be very good money, if Gaddafianages to hold onto power and avoid warcrimes trials long enough to pay. ps - Somebody notify Jeanne: this is what private armies actually look like.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #48 February 24, 2011 Quote Foreign Mercenaries in the Middle East: A Brief History When you're a scumbag dictator intent on nothing more than holding onto power and stealing as much as you can, trusting the locals is a bad idea. That's why he uses foreigners, particularly Brits in days gone by. Now it's anyone desperate enough and amoral enough to take the money. And it's supposed to be very good money, if Gaddafianages to hold onto power and avoid warcrimes trials long enough to pay. ps - Somebody notify Jeanne: this is what private armies actually look like. HMMMM yes yes it is.... and some people are completely blind to the ones THEY support so vociferously Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,384 #49 February 24, 2011 Now Gaddafi is blaming his problems on Bin Laden: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279 "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,122 #50 February 24, 2011 QuoteHow was being glad the pilots refused orders Now you support deserters. Some fine morals you have..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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piisfish 135 #32 February 23, 2011 a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #33 February 23, 2011 Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect?dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #34 February 23, 2011 I'm in. Just read google report on them. Assholes, I'm in for a hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #35 February 23, 2011 In my country, it is expected that you follow the orders, except if you feel they are blatantly wrong. Guess that's what the Su22 Pilots who ejected today were thinking too scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #36 February 23, 2011 In the US the enlisted oath says that you will follow orders in accordance with the UCMJ. An order to kill protesting citizens (in the US) is generally not lawful under UCMJ. If they are trying to break into the armory, you can defend it, but dropping bombs on them would not be lawful in most circumstances. Officers swear a slightly different oath (no clause about obeying orders), but are still not bound to obey unconstitutional orders. Bombing civilians for exercising their consitutional rights is probably an order you can disobey. Officer: Quote“I, (state your name), having been appointed a (rank) in the United States (branch of service), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God.” Enlisted: QuoteI, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #37 February 23, 2011 In the military we were taught to follow lawful orders. Meaning we should refuse if it was wrong i.e being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect? Not trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #39 February 23, 2011 Quote a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump and people complain about price of jumptickets.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #40 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote a pilot and is co-pilot/navigator ejected from a Su-22 to show their dissaproval towards the order they received to bomb the city of Benghazi http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/dossier/tunisie/story/Un-pilote-refuse-de-bombarder-et-s-ejecte-15732007 http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/article932302.ece/Libyan-fighter-pilot-rejects-Benghazi-raid-ditches-plane Congrats on your jump and people complain about price of jumptickets.. So, they owe beer, right?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,122 #41 February 23, 2011 QuoteNot trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. You just made an argument against the right to guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #42 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote Quote http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/21/us-libya-protests-malta-idUSTRE71K52R20110221 I'm glad they did the right thing. Surprised to see you supporting Al-Jama’a al-Islamiyyah al-Muqatilah bi-Libya. I'll have to get you a 'I love Al Quieda' T-shirt for your birthday. How was being glad the pilots refused orders to blow up their own countrymen that were doing a protest the same as what you claim above?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #43 February 23, 2011 Quote Quote Quote good for them, but they should still be shot for being traitors They certainly made an oath when they signed up. And about every oath that I heard of had something like "defend country from all enemy, foreign or domestic" and "follow the orders of the president" or similar. Just because of that, they really could be shot as traitors. But if protesters win, then they would be heroes. Right? So if something like this happened in your country (not directed to you Fish, but to all), what do you think, where would most of the army/police members stand? Would they bomb or would they defect? Not trying to get things off-topic here, but this also goes to the argument that anti-gun folks make about the 2nd Amendment. They claim that a citizen militia is a useless idea, because if the government wants to attack the citizenry, then they'll be helpless to resist. Well, here we are with Libya, and an example of how even in a country ruled by a dictator, that the military will not necessarily go along blindly with orders to attack their own civilians. No doubt the same would be true if an American president were to ever give such orders to the U.S. military to attack our own citizens. That is the brillance of the private armies like Blackwater/XE and the group that took over police duties in Montana. They are not hobbled with those sill restrictions of shooting those who do not agree to get with THEIR program or ideaology. (Queue Kennedy to come in and defend his heros.. who would NEVER do anything like that.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #44 February 24, 2011 QuoteIn the military we were taught to follow lawful orders. Meaning we should refuse if it was wrong i.e being ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. example - the Kent State shootings or My Lai. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #45 February 24, 2011 Not a perfect system, but better then (German accent) I was just following Orders, They would shoot me if I didn't obey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #46 February 24, 2011 Quoteif Gaddafi doesn't have the support of this military, he WILL fall. Apparently that may be less cut-and-dried in Libya than in some other countries (e.g., Egypt). Please see article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12558066 QuoteLibya: Who is propping up Gaddafi? Unlike in Egypt or Tunisia, it is not the conventional military that holds the balance of power in Libya. Instead, it is a murky network of paramilitary brigades, "revolutionary committees" of trusted followers, tribal leaders and imported foreign mercenaries. The actual Libyan Army is almost symbolic, a weakened and emaciated force of little more than 40,000, poorly armed and poorly trained. It is part of Col Muammar Gaddafi's long-term strategy to eliminate the risk of a military coup, which is how he himself came to power in 1969. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #47 February 24, 2011 Foreign Mercenaries in the Middle East: A Brief History When you're a scumbag dictator intent on nothing more than holding onto power and stealing as much as you can, trusting the locals is a bad idea. That's why he uses foreigners, particularly Brits in days gone by. Now it's anyone desperate enough and amoral enough to take the money. And it's supposed to be very good money, if Gaddafianages to hold onto power and avoid warcrimes trials long enough to pay. ps - Somebody notify Jeanne: this is what private armies actually look like.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #48 February 24, 2011 Quote Foreign Mercenaries in the Middle East: A Brief History When you're a scumbag dictator intent on nothing more than holding onto power and stealing as much as you can, trusting the locals is a bad idea. That's why he uses foreigners, particularly Brits in days gone by. Now it's anyone desperate enough and amoral enough to take the money. And it's supposed to be very good money, if Gaddafianages to hold onto power and avoid warcrimes trials long enough to pay. ps - Somebody notify Jeanne: this is what private armies actually look like. HMMMM yes yes it is.... and some people are completely blind to the ones THEY support so vociferously Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #49 February 24, 2011 Now Gaddafi is blaming his problems on Bin Laden: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12570279 "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,122 #50 February 24, 2011 QuoteHow was being glad the pilots refused orders Now you support deserters. Some fine morals you have..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
