masterblaster72 0 #126 November 30, 2009 QuoteWell, well. After all these decades of sanctimoniously "sitting it out" while the rest of Europe behaved like animals, the Swiss have finally shown their true colors and joined the rest of the Continent on the Wall of Shame. Congratulations. I disagree -- Switzerland has no historical baggage and owes the world nothing. The people in the country decided what they wanted and that's the result. May I ask you this question: is democracy only democracy when a country votes the "correct" way? Though this result is obviously not to your liking, it's what the people of Switzerland want, and got -- thanks to a democratic process. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #127 November 30, 2009 Unfortunatly, this form of 'democracy' means that the majority (or at least the ones that vote) always win and this is not always the best for the 'whole'. Minorities will always loose and that could be considered bad...... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #128 November 30, 2009 QuoteQuotesorry mate, if you dont like democracy and freedom of speech, there's always countries like china, the UAE or whatever that probably welcome you with open arms.. How do you tie the result of this vote in with freedom of speech? I would say to you that this is a prime example of how un-checked democracy leads to a loss of freedom of speech. If unchecked democracy means voting directly on issues that may affect my life, I'll take it any time. And by the way, if I could vote against loud church bells in my neighborhood, I'd jump at the opportunity. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #129 November 30, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote you dont know much about the issue, yet you feel strong opinions about it; why!? Because he's an ethical human being. and the majority of swiss are not? Precisely! And they've demonstrated that by democratic process! unlike yours, our democracy cant be bought! Chill down, Swiss-Chris. I'll just say hats-off to that national decision! Which, funnily enough, heavily has been critizised by Muslim countries which never ever allowed any Christian church to be built on thier soils! Like Turkey, f. e. Makes me think, really. @MrDree: Your post is just BS. Shows, you do not know anything about Europe. Swtzerland never was a European state. It's always been independent. But, we Europeans just lovvvve it due to its wonderful Alps, cheese, chocolate, friendly peeps and skydivers, and - they are closer to our heart than folks from overseas. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #130 November 30, 2009 Quote> we are talking about minarets and minarets are synonymous > with some guy catawhalling at ungodly hours and very often stick > out like a sore thumb. Fair enough. In that vein we should also ban church steeples with their bells that wake you up at hours when many decent people are still asleep. Now your'e just being obtuse (Synonym) Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #131 November 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuotesorry mate, if you dont like democracy and freedom of speech, there's always countries like china, the UAE or whatever that probably welcome you with open arms.. How do you tie the result of this vote in with freedom of speech? I would say to you that this is a prime example of how un-checked democracy leads to a loss of freedom of speech. If unchecked democracy means voting directly on issues that may affect my life, I'll take it any time. And what happens when you're on the wrong end of a vote that affects your life? When other people vote to tell you how you can and can't express yourself? QuoteAnd by the way, if I could vote against loud church bells in my neighborhood, I'd jump at the opportunity. Again, this isn't analogous to voting against the bells, it's analogous to voting against a silent church steeple.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #132 November 30, 2009 QuoteMay I ask you this question: is democracy only democracy when a country votes the "correct" way? No, that's not the point. Democracy isn't the be all and end all.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #133 November 30, 2009 Quote Again, this isn't analogous to voting against the bells, it's analogous to voting against a silent church steeple. Please refer to quade's post #10 in this thread. A minaret is not silent; its purpose is for making tower calls. A mosque without minarets may very well be silent -- and they're still allowed in Switzerland. This is not a ban on Islam as opponents of the measure make it out to be. The precedent of voting to accommodate the Muslim minority has been set in other countries, and has failed miserably for many natives of Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc. In my view there's nothing wrong with the people of Switzerland learning from those precedents and voting accordingly as they wish. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #134 November 30, 2009 Quote And what happens when you're on the wrong end of a vote that affects your life? When other people vote to tell you how you can and can't express yourself? I grew up in Philadelphia in the 80's, when we had the MOVE incident with Ramona Africa etc. In short, these people were getting on loudspeakers shouting all kinds of nonsense and profanities in the name of their personal beliefs, waking people up during odd hours of the morning. They also left garbage heaps and human waste in their yards, attracting all kinds of vermin (which also affected the non-MOVE residents around them). Should the local residents have allowed the MOVE followers to do what they did in order to express themselves, at their personal sacrifice? QuoteAgain, this isn't analogous to voting against the bells, it's analogous to voting against a silent church steeple. My MOVE analogy above is a rather extreme and irrelevant one -- not much different than your analogy on banning silent church steeples. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #135 November 30, 2009 QuoteA minaret is not silent; its purpose is for making tower calls. OK, since virgin-burner won't answer me, I'll ask you the question I asked him: Are minarets in Switzerland currently allowed to broadcast the call to prayer? I'm pretty sure they're not, in which case my analogy stands untouched. A steeple is traditionally made to house bells, a minaret is traditionally made to broadcast the call to prayer. But a silent minaret is just like a silent steeple. Y'follow? QuoteThe precedent of voting to accommodate the Muslim minority has been set in other countries, and has failed miserably for many natives of Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc. In my view there's nothing wrong with the people of Switzerland learning from those precedents and voting accordingly as they wish. Sure. Unless you actually give a shit about freedom and human rights.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #136 November 30, 2009 Quote Sure. Unless you actually give a shit about freedom and human rights. Okay dude, you got me there. I believe in oppression and the utter destruction of the human spirit. Long live Big Brother. You win. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #137 November 30, 2009 QuoteA steeple is traditionally made to house bells, a minaret is traditionally made to broadcast the call to prayer. But a silent minaret is just like a silent steeple. Y'follow? Of course they follow; they're just, by and large, not willing to admit it. The issue (in Switzerland, and in here) has never really been about the sound of the call to prayer - that can be broadcast with or without a minaret. The issue has always been about the visual symbolism of the minaret. The issue has always been about ethnic bigotry - nothing less, no matter how, uh, veiled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #138 November 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteA steeple is traditionally made to house bells, a minaret is traditionally made to broadcast the call to prayer. But a silent minaret is just like a silent steeple. Y'follow? Of course they follow; they're just, by and large, not willing to admit it. The issue (in Switzerland, and in here) has never really been about the sound of the call to prayer - that can be broadcast with or without a minaret. The issue has always been about the visual symbolism of the minaret. The issue has always been about ethnic bigotry - nothing less, no matter how, uh, veiled. So, now you're not only a resident of Switzerland, but you've developed telepathy and know exactly why they voted.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #139 December 1, 2009 QuoteSo, now you're not only a resident of Switzerland, but you've developed telepathy and know exactly why they voted. I knew you were going to say that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #140 December 1, 2009 >Now your'e just being obtuse Of course. They are completely different; one is scary and Muslim, the other is familiar and comforting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #141 December 1, 2009 Quote More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban. Same as vote in Speaker's Corner. They could have saved a lot of campaign and election expense, by just asking us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #142 December 1, 2009 Quote Appalling that so much support for banning minarets would be found in a forum containing many BASE jumpers. I think that BASE jumping from a really tall, sharp, pointy object would qualify as Stoopid BASE. But not as Stoopid as trying to land your canopy on one I'm not against this Swiss vote - I happen to think that Switzerland is the greatest democracy in the world, and if it's what they decided by vote, then it should stand. I do however, think this vote is an indication of how people can be driven en-masse to think in a certain way, even hate an entire culture, based on media and political pressure, rather than trying to think for themselves. Reminiscent of Hitler stirring up the people against Communists and Jews with an effective leaflet campaign.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #143 December 1, 2009 Quote and in that regard, you as a member of the UK should be pretty mute about; government-sanctioned torture of detainees!? switzerland doesnt do that! No but the Swiss do guard the leader and his minions of another sort of terrorist organisation Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #144 December 1, 2009 Quote Sure. Unless you actually give a shit about freedom and human rights. i have stayed out of this discussion long enough, but that makes me angry! talking about human rights, what religion is the most opressive today? the women of islam has no rights what so ever, they have to do what men says. is that really how we are supposed to live in 2009? was it a month ago media wrote about a woman who was wearing pants. if she loses in court she will get 40 whipps. why should women not be allowd to use pants? the past couple of years there has been several cases where the family murders their daughters because she was a shame for the family. seriously??? in sweden, im not joking, we are not allowd to sing our national anthem or to have our flag on flagpole. its considerd racism by some immigrants, and its not our dannish or finnish immigrants im talking about. a workcolleague who is a muslim told us at work that his wife has not left the appartment since they moved in, SEVEN YEARS AGO. he claims she dont want to. even if that is true, its a mental illness which any loving husband should help her treat but he dont care. i think its time to wake up the muslims and tell them they can cant treat their women the way they do. saying no to minarets might not be the perfect soultion for that, but saying yes all the time sure wont help. i know this post might seem as if im a racist, but im really not, i have actually worked with integration and i try to be as open minded as possible. in what i would see as a perfect world there wouldnt be any religion, in that way you cant say "your different". look at children, when they are 5 years old they can all play togheter, but when they grow 2 foot taler they cant. why? is it thin air? most likely not, its because they have different religions and different culture. because of that, they are different. and all that is because "my god says this, and your god says that". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #145 December 1, 2009 Quote I think that BASE jumping from a really tall, sharp, pointy object would qualify as Stoopid BASE. Why on earth would you think that? I guess it's stooopid BASE to jump Antennas as well, is it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrDree 0 #146 December 1, 2009 Quote @MrDree: Your post is just BS. Shows, you do not know anything about Europe. Swtzerland never was a European state. It's always been independent. But, we Europeans just lovvvve it due to its wonderful Alps, cheese, chocolate, friendly peeps and skydivers, and - they are closer to our heart than folks from overseas. I'm sorry, but which one of my posts are you refering to? I didn't talk about Europe. I know Switzerland's always been independent. A little to much if you ask me! "One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching." Dudeist Skydiver #101 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #147 December 1, 2009 Quote most likely not, its because they have different religions and different culture. because of that, they are different. and all that is because "my god says this, and your god says that". If you think getting rid of religion would make people play nice then you're very sorely mistaken. Many wars have been fought (and many millions killed) that had nothing to do with religion. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrDree 0 #148 December 1, 2009 QuoteThe United Nations INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS Article 2 1. Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present Covenant, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. 2. Where not already provided for by existing legislative or other measures, each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to take the necessary steps, in accordance with its constitutional processes and with the provisions of the present Covenant, to adopt such laws or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to the rights recognized in the present Covenant. Article 18 1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching. 3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others. Article 20 2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law. "One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching." Dudeist Skydiver #101 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #149 December 1, 2009 i dont read anything about minarets in there; if we were to ban mosques, i could see your point, but not as its presented..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrDree 0 #150 December 1, 2009 Quotei dont read anything about minarets in there; if we were to ban mosques, i could see your point, but not as its presented.. According to the Human Rights Comitee, if the new law is applied, it would be an infringement of those 3 articles."One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching." Dudeist Skydiver #101 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
