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Ron 7
QuoteWhose job is it than?
Parents
QuoteAnd is service in the military something that a parent should groom their child for?
If that is what they want for their child, yes. I have seen parents groom children to be in the military, law enforcement, lawyers, Doctors, and even hippies.
QuoteI would think that most parents would prefer their kids never hit such a low that they must serve the military.
LOW? The military paid for my college. I'd consider low to be a criminal or a person who lives off of welfare. The military is an option for many types of people... those that want to go to school and those that want to learn a trade.
Try again without such a bias.
QuoteThe government has had the child for the majority of his/her waking hours since the age of 5 and through 17/18. They administer the schools and provide the midday meal.
Were they not responsible for education and fitness?
There should be programs, but political correctness has made it so that everyone has to be "winners". I'd support progress based grading and mandatory physical fitness training.
Also, as bad as public education is.... You think that they would do a good job?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Andy9o8 0
QuoteQuote[reply, It's not the government's job to make sure your kid isn't too stupid or fat to serve in the military.
Whose job is it than?
Wow. Really?
Well of course it's the parents' responsibility, which is your point.
But it's not unreasonable, and probably beneficial, for society and government to be active partners with parents through things like more active and pervasive programs (in schools, via public service advertising, etc.) to promote and provide physical fitness, sound nutrition, anti-smoking, etc. Whatever's being done in those areas now, a whole lot more can still be done without ever running counter to parents' ultimate responsibility to raise their kids properly.
Example: I was a young kid in the mid-60's, and I distinctly remember a few years in that decade when the TV airwaves were saturated with anti-smoking public service commercials - for example, this one from 1967 that I remember very clearly (partly because the adult actor resembled Bobby Kennedy):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmzDLzqQ-A0
I've always found it regrettable that the campaign seemed to have waned in intensity since then. Anyhow, I think the same approach could be useful to help promote good nutrition and fitness and campaign against youth obesity, especially if we get the schools more actively involved. (Actually, there was a big physical fitness campaign pushed during the Kennedy Administration, as I recall. Why not today?) Consider it a team approach for the greater good. Certainly can't hurt.
Andy9o8 0
I'd still like to know people's thoughts on the point I raised in my post #62 about the military helping to better educate its enlisted personnel. If the military can teach Johnny how to shoot straight, it can certainly teach him how to read and write better.
Ron 7
QuoteThis thread discussion seems to be focusing almost entirely on weight and "pampered kids" issues. But what about education? What does the military do to enhance the literacy and math skills for personnel, especially enlisted personnel, whose basic skills in those areas are so glaringly lacking?
But really it is not about the military.... The article is about the *general populace* not meeting the standards.
But to answer your question, the military has many programs to help those that are below standards. To start they have an English language program that people can enroll in even BEFORE they ship off to basic.
I was a tutor to help people prepare for the ASVAB testing after they had arrived at out unit so they could take the test again and get a better score. I also helped some of the troops with reading if they needed help.
In addition, they have opportunities to take further education classes. I know people who took college classes while serving.
Personally, I took the opportunity to take some classes on car repair. I didn't take the college classes while I was in since I had already had most of the classes that were offered.
If a person really wants to better themselves, the military will provide ample opportunity. However, if the person wants to sit around a drink after work... The military will not stop them unless it becomes a problem.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Andy9o8 0
I appreciate your comments.
Here's a thought: lots of professions have mandatory continuing education credit requirements. Why not have such a mandatory policy apply to military enlisted personnel? I'd think the up-side, both to the military and to society at large, would far out-weigh any possible down-side.
QuoteIf a person really wants to better themselves, the military will provide ample opportunity. However, if the person wants to sit around a drink after work... The military will not stop them unless it becomes a problem.
Here's a thought: lots of professions have mandatory continuing education credit requirements. Why not have such a mandatory policy apply to military enlisted personnel? I'd think the up-side, both to the military and to society at large, would far out-weigh any possible down-side.
jcd11235 0
QuoteI was a tutor to help people prepare for the ASVAB testing after they had arrived at out unit so they could take the test again and get a better score. I also helped some of the troops with reading if they needed help.
I guess I was lucky. Our COHORT unit required a relative ASVAB score of 50th percentile or higher, even for our 13B MOS.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
Ron 7
Quote
Here's a thought: lots of professions have mandatory continuing education credit requirements. Why not have such a mandatory policy apply to military enlisted personnel?
The military has that.... Just like with other professions the continuing education is designed to help with the profession. I was an Infantryman, my continuing education included such things as Airborne, Medic, Comms, hand to hand combat, report writing, Field Arty cross training...ect.
QuoteI'd think the up-side, both to the military and to society at large, would far out-weigh any possible down-side.
Why not make continuing education mandatory for people on welfare? Why not make continuing education mandatory for EVERYONE?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Andy9o8 0
QuoteWhy not make continuing education mandatory for people on welfare?
Great idea. If they want their check, they must abide by that rule.
QuoteWhy not make continuing education mandatory for EVERYONE?
Change "mandatory" to "universal", and I'm all for it. But for civilian adults in the private sector, unless there is some government-supplied quid pro quo, making it mandatory probably would not be legal. But I'm with you in principle.
Ron 7
QuoteI guess I was lucky. Our COHORT unit required a relative ASVAB score of 50th percentile or higher, even for our 13B MOS.
Infantry needs a score of 90 based off of the totals of Arithmetic Reasoning (AR), Coding Speed (CS), Auto and Shop Information (AS), Mechanical Comprehension (MC)
Cannon Crewmember needs a score of 95 based off of those plus Mathematics Knowledge (MK).
A GT score over 110 will let you do anything, you needed a min 70 (I think) GT to join the infantry and a min 80 (I think) to re-enlist in anything else.
So my job was to take guys that had less than the 80GT and tutor them to at least the 80 needed to reup into another job. It was a mandatory program in my unit. Until your GT score was above 80, you had to take the classes.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
QuoteGreat idea. If they want their check, they must abide by that rule.
I'd love that... I'd also like mandatory drug testing and counseling for drugs and alcohol.
But it will never happen... People will see it as too much of an intrusion into personal liberties. I however think that if you are living on the Govt dime the Govt has a say in what you can and can't do....Kinda like when you live at home with your parents vs moving out on your own. Plus, alcohol and drug abuse is a major factor in keeping people on welfare.
I'd say it would be a GREAT program and one I would be willing to spend tax money on.... But again, there are people that would reject it based on it being against personal liberties.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
jcd11235 0
QuoteCannon Crewmember needs a score of 95 based off of those plus Mathematics Knowledge (MK).
Our COHORT unit had higher minimum requirements than Cannon Crewmembers in general.
QuoteA GT score over 110 will let you do anything, you needed a min 70 (I think) GT to join the infantry and a min 80 (I think) to re-enlist in anything else.
That must have changed since I was in. At that time, a 110 GT score was required to re-enlist in any MOS, IIRC.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
QuoteThis thread discussion seems to be focusing almost entirely on weight and "pampered kids" issues. But what about education? What does the military do to enhance the literacy and math skills for personnel, especially enlisted personnel, whose basic skills in those areas are so glaringly lacking?
Because the primary reason for ineligibilty is weight and physical fitness.
www.FourWheelerHB.com
Gawain 0
QuoteThis thread discussion seems to be focusing almost entirely on weight and "pampered kids" issues. But what about education? What does the military do to enhance the literacy and math skills for personnel, especially enlisted personnel, whose basic skills in those areas are so glaringly lacking?
In many MOS's, the young Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine have the time and ability to go to school as well. Not all MOS's, but many. It really depends on the job too.
The ASVAB does measure literacy and math ability, but does not "pass or fail".
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
QuoteI'd still like to know people's thoughts on the point I raised in my post #62 about the military helping to better educate its enlisted personnel. If the military can teach Johnny how to shoot straight, it can certainly teach him how to read and write better.
I can't speak for all the branches of the military, but in the Air Force, education is heavily emphasized. There are many programs through which you can get free (or greatly reduced cost) college and grdaduate level education. Most of the First Shirt's i've met (the good ones, anyway) encourage the young airmen under their charge to take advantage of every educational opportunity available to them. Combined with a good service record, college classes make you look better on paper when it comes time for promotions.
In fact, it's pretty much a requirement that you get a master's degree if you ever want to make it past captain in the officer world.
The best things in life are dangerous.
QuoteLoss of Arabic speakers is actually intentional, I know of two that were highly skilled Intel weenies and they were simply dumped.
Stellar careers and no effort to retain them.
One had finished 23 years of service and was willing to take a contracting job or non military position.
The other was dumped for a false diabetes screening in such a manner it left him not wanting to come back once that was solved.
Through the network they both discovered it was that they were not Muslims, even though both are very thoroughly versed in that culture.
Can you elaborate? Is it because of the prejudice of their muslim superiors or because of some cold calculations from the Christian/secular leadership as to their value to the service? This is very intriguing
labrys 0
Quotewhen did that transition occur and what prompted it?
I think Vietnam era... and partly because of racial integration in the services slightly before that. More cultural and ethnic diversity in the military made it "distasteful" to the white middle and upper classes.
Owned by Remi #?
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteIndeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.
What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.
/Marg
He noted clearly that the school environment has a larger influence on a kid than does their home/family environment. I don't have the book in front of me, and it wasn't something I would have thought feasible, but his sources seem pretty solid.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
QuoteAnd yet if the government were to push the President's Council on Physical Fitness and exercise programs any more than they currently do, wouldn't there be a huge outcry by some that they're being "indoctrinated"?
I remember vividly my youth and all of us being tested on what seemed like a weekly basis. Points were given and badges passed out for accomplishments. I can not in my wildest imagination think of what the reaction to that would be in today's political climate.
Yet when I brought it up I was called an insensitive asshole. This country is full of fat, lazy underachieving dirtbags who cry like little kids if someone tries to motivate them to improve themselves.
Obesity thread
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteAnd yet if the government were to push the President's Council on Physical Fitness and exercise programs any more than they currently do, wouldn't there be a huge outcry by some that they're being "indoctrinated"?
I remember vividly my youth and all of us being tested on what seemed like a weekly basis. Points were given and badges passed out for accomplishments. I can not in my wildest imagination think of what the reaction to that would be in today's political climate.
Yet when I brought it up I was called an insensitive asshole. This country is full of fat, lazy underachieving dirtbags who cry like little kids if someone tries to motivate them to improve themselves.
Obesity thread
Duh - didn't you get the memo? Only liberals know what's best for everyone - you're the wrong political bent.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
quade 3
QuoteYet when I brought it up I was called an insensitive asshole. This country is full of fat, lazy underachieving dirtbags who cry like little kids . . .
Well, on behalf of the entire DZ.com community, let me apologize. If anyone called you an insensitive asshole, they clearly didn't see the caring comments you made like the one just above.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteQuoteone of those two groups is free to indulge it, the other expelled for it.
Really? I'll have to let the folks that got discharged for having sex in a HMMWV know that, so they can petition to be reinstated.
There are plenty of times where they can fuck each other off duty. You gave no useful detail, but dereliction of duty warrants a penalty. Though I suspect a discharge came from something more than being caught with their pants down.
The gays do not have that option. Until the policy is changed, they can only be gay so long as no one finds out. Gawain's defense that they are still free to have sex with women is as lame as the argument that gays have the same rights to marry as everyone else.
This question can be viewed from the traditional rights question, or the more focused question presented by the thread topic: the military can't get enough people. Marg supplemented that with info on the losses in skilled personnel under Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuotewhen did that transition occur and what prompted it?
I think Vietnam era... and partly because of racial integration in the services slightly before that. More cultural and ethnic diversity in the military made it "distasteful" to the white middle and upper classes.
I would have cited Vietnam as well. But had not thought about the second part. Hmmm .... just want to think about it. Thanks for the response.
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Ok. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll stick with my original point that it's not the government's responsibility to raise your kids.
--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.
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