75% of Young Americans Unfit for Military Duty

[cliffwhite 0]

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Congress authorized use of force (and, obviously, it isn't the first time that's been done)- sorry, sucks to be you.

Actually, I'm doing pretty well!!!But enough about me. I could go on all day!

Lets talk about Congress authorizing "use of force".
That's not a declaration of war as required by the Constitution.
Military personelle don't swear to follow the non-commitmant of Congress .

They swear to defend the Constitution.

Do you , Mealtickets, believe that the Constitution has been defended recently?

Let' talk about Habeous Corpus ,Mealticket.

Has the military been defending the Constitution along that line recently?

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[pbwing 0]

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But they are dependant on us if they want to come home.

Thing is ,I don't know how any of them got out there!
Did they go of their own accord?
Certainly they didn't have legitimate orders as
my congress, my representation, hasn't declared war as required by the Constitution.

And those soldiers swore an oath to uphold the constitution.

They want to be in Afghanistan it's their freedom to make that call.

I'm going to work on cutting off the funding for supplies and transport back.

Blues,
Cliff

Wow. Cliff is in fine form tonight!!

[cliffwhite 0]

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But they are dependant on us if they want to come home.

Thing is ,I don't know how any of them got out there!
Did they go of their own accord?
Certainly they didn't have legitimate orders as
my congress, my representation, hasn't declared war as required by the Constitution.

And those soldiers swore an oath to uphold the constitution.

They want to be in Afghanistan it's their freedom to make that call.

I'm going to work on cutting off the funding for supplies and transport back.

Blues,
Cliff

Wow. Cliff is in fine form tonight!!

Thank you and listen,
I have to give some of the credit to my new toothpaste.
Yes, recently I've switched to Crest with Listerine and My teeth are much whiter and my breath is so much fresher!!!!!
Don't believe me just lean in here and kiss me!
No but seriously, " Crest with listerine wiill change your life and put you in your finest form!!

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[pbwing 0]

oh. i thought you were cooking with aluminium pots again...

[mnealtx 0]

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Congress authorized use of force (and, obviously, it isn't the first time that's been done)- sorry, sucks to be you.

Actually, I'm doing pretty well!!!But enough about me. I could go on all day!

Lets talk about Congress authorizing "use of force".
That's not a declaration of war as required by the Constitution.

And you evidently don't understand that a declaration of war is NOT required - maybe you're not doing as well as you thought.

Might want to re-read your cliffnotes, cliffnote.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[cliffwhite 0]

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[
And you evidently don't understand that a declaration of war is NOT required - maybe you're not doing as well as you thought.

Might want to re-read your cliffnotes, cliffnote.

No, as a strict Constitutionalist , I can assure you that a declaration of war by the Congress is definately required.

You might site precedent but those before us were simply wrong.
You'ld be wrong too!
So where are we ?
Those with the power of the guns do what they want in this country. That's anarchy not democracy and certainly not in line with our Constitutional Republic.

And those with the loud mouths think they're doin' somethin' patriotic, but they're just loudmouths.

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[pbwing 0]

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No, as a strict Constitutionalist , I can assure you that a declaration of war by the Congress is definately required.

So does that mean the Joint Resolution has to have the title "Declaration of War" or it's not valid?

[InfiniteSky 0]

A huge part of it comes down to the fact that when you're stuck out training, you're living in close quarters, sleeping next to each other, baby wipe bathing, seeing each other naked, ect. Most straight guys (atleast those who join the military) don't like the idea that the guy next to them might want their dick.

If the rule changed and gays were allowed openly in the military any guy who admitted he was gay would be outcast. He'd lose all friends and be made fun of constantly. The higher ups could try to police it but it would just happen when they're not around. People call each other racial slurs to their face and its fine. It's a different society where you're constantly one upping each other and trying to "burn" anyone and everyone in the worst ways possible.

The military (especially the infantry which is where it would be the worst) is a very macho organization, and being gay is considered weak. That's life in the military. Whether or not they make it ok for gays to be open it'll never work.


And yeah, most guys do want to be in Afghanistan. They train to go fight and that's what they're happy doing. You strand them over there they'll just fight their way back here and stage a revolution.

[Andy9o8 0]

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The problem is "good order and discipline." Most people I work with couldn't care less what a person's orientation is. The problem is that there are people out there who, when they find out someone in their squadron is homosexual, will find a way to discriminate or attack that person.

These attacks ultimately lead to litigation, possible prison time for the attacker, compensation for the physical and emotional damage to the victim, the possibility that several people will be discharged from the military, and an overall loss of efficiency because of the manpower and resources required to process the whole mess.

This is my view on why it's not a good idea to allow openly homosexual people into the military.

That was the essentially the same argument made against (then-) proposed de-segregation of the US military. Fortunately, President Truman rejected that argument. I think the experiment has worked pretty well.

[Gawain 0]

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If a kid is straight, and wants to serve badly enough, he/she will be willing to do what it takes to serve.

If a kid is homosexual, and wants to serve badly enough, he/she will be willing to do what it takes to serve.

Why should there be a different expecation?

Are you suggesting there's no difference in the permissible actions for these two groups? Or that each has to make some differing level of sacrifice to serve?

Young people have a strong sex drive, and one of those two groups is free to indulge it, the other expelled for it.

What I'm suggesting is that it's not about the behavior, it's about the motive. There were probably plenty of same sex physical encounters going on during my time at Fort Campbell. Even the "hetro" encounters were in "private".

Also, I'm stating that there are no differences in permissible actions in these groups. Any guy is not allowed to have sex with another guy. Same for the ladies. The fact that some may want to do it doesn't change the rule for the whole.

All groups make differing levels of sacrifice. A dedicated fat kid learns to adjust his diet and exercise. A sexually frustrated woman might have some extra "tools". Any young man has his left and right hand to work with at minimum.

My point is this, why does someone feel the need to differentiate themselves in the manner of saying, "I'm gay and I serve" versus simply saying, "I serve."

Which position is more selfless?

I served with blacks, latinos, whites, asians, indians, some of whom may have been gay too. I didn't care about any other factors, why should they care that I have to know they are gay? Why is it so important that they have to wear that on their sleeve? This isn't hyphonated-American BS.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[bullin82 0]

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My cousin recently joined the Army and he was near 300 lbs when he started looking into it. I believe he got down to 230 and was able to meet the minimum physical fitness requirements prior to shipping off. During bootcamp he was able to shed even more weight and is now 185 lbs after being in for a year.

Personally when I signed up for delayed entry I wasn't able to meet the minimum requirements either. With the help of my recruiters on Saturday morning pt sessions I was able to meet those requirements by my ship date.

Youth obesity is a problem I'm sure but the article seems to be just a bunch of old retired military farts sitting around with nothing better to do.

Here's something interesting...I'm sure we have all seen the new Army recruiting campaign where the kid's parent begrudgingly accepts the kid's desire to join the Army. Well here's why.

when i tryed to join i was 250 lbs and wasnt allowed in this was 2000 i started to eat right and workout and lost 50 lbs to join the Army, much like you and your cousin. Now that fact of the matter is were stuck with a bunch of overweight kids that have NO ambision so there not even trying to loose the weight. Yes the miltary gets you into shape but if you cant be at least close to the start point they dont have the man power andtime to do 1 on 1 with fat lazy kids.

Also over the years basic has become easy with the fragile mind kids we have now. there allowed to eat what they want at the chow hall talk in line the rumored "stress card" is an actual thing now, hell i have a soldier now that just got out of basic in 2008 as cav they were allowed there cell phones lol. were getting to soft on these kids they need to know of responability, dicapline, and respect this is where were failing as adults and perents and its now where near being the Gov fault or a military being "to picky"

[Andy9o8 0]

This thread discussion seems to be focusing almost entirely on weight and "pampered kids" issues. But what about education? What does the military do to enhance the literacy and math skills for personnel, especially enlisted personnel, whose basic skills in those areas are so glaringly lacking?

[nerdgirl 0]

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Indeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.

What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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The problem is "good order and discipline." Most people I work with couldn't care less what a person's orientation is. The problem is that there are people out there who, when they find out someone in their squadron is homosexual, will find a way to discriminate or attack that person.

These attacks ultimately lead to litigation, possible prison time for the attacker, compensation for the physical and emotional damage to the victim, the possibility that several people will be discharged from the military, and an overall loss of efficiency because of the manpower and resources required to process the whole mess.

This is my view on why it's not a good idea to allow openly homosexual people into the military.

Thanks for putting that out there. Had not heard that argument before -- at least as I'm reading it with emphasis on the part I italicized above, it sounds like it recognition or acknowledgement of intolerance by some few (?), very few (?) who will/may create problems.

I personally know a few gay men currently serving in the military. They're all in non-combat arms MOS, all highly trained (e.g., psychiatrist), and all in fields that are have challenges keeping folks.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Andy9o8 0]

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I personally know a few gay men currently serving in the military. They're all in non-combat arms MOS,

Was it obvious during grenade practice?
I'm just asking.

[nerdgirl 0]

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I wonder what would happen to military recruiting if "don't ask. don't tell" was applied to Christianity.

That's a neat way of looking at it, imo.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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I personally know a few gay men currently serving in the military. They're all in non-combat arms MOS,

Was it obvious during grenade practice?
I'm just asking.

I've never participated in grenade practice.
All just told me in one form or another, e.g., one guy who was being deployed to Iraq introduced me to his boyfriend at a going-away party.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Andy9o8 0]

Eh, some times my dumb jokes are too obscure.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban666l.jpg

[nerdgirl 0]

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I would hope most parents would prefer their kids aspire to serve in the military or another similar federal or global service. WTF?

That's the part on which I focus too.

Altho' it wasn't emphasized in the link that Andy posted, others stories on the retired Generals' report and talk at the National Press Club have mentioned it.

To invoke a Malcolm Gladwell, Tipping Point-esque reference, when did that transition occur and what prompted it?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[timmyfitz 0]

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But they are dependant on us if they want to come home.

Thing is ,I don't know how any of them got out there!
Did they go of their own accord?
Certainly they didn't have legitimate orders as
my congress, my representation, hasn't declared war as required by the Constitution.

And those soldiers swore an oath to uphold the constitution.

They want to be in Afghanistan it's their freedom to make that call.

I'm going to work on cutting off the funding for supplies and transport back.

Blues,
Cliff

Wow. Cliff is in fine form tonight!!

Yes he is. His arguments and rebuttals are becoming more and more pathetic as time goes by. But they are funny to read.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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...My point is this, why does someone feel the need to differentiate themselves in the manner of saying, "I'm gay and I serve" versus simply saying, "I serve."...

... I didn't care about any other factors, why should they care that I have to know they are gay? Why is it so important that they have to wear that on their sleeve? This isn't hyphonated-American BS.

Note: I selectively quoted so that the part I care about doesn't get lost.

It isn't about differentiating it or wearing it on their sleeve, it's about having to hide who you really are to avoid getting thrown out.

This is actually kind of funny. I'm straight, but most of my posts here in SC this week are about gay rights. It's more of a tirade against inolerant bullies (Note intolerant, not homophobic) than anything else I guess.

Not to imply that Gawain is intolerant or a bully, just a general comment on my "gay rights" stand of late.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[MrLicious 0]

Cliff I can't speak for every veteran, but I can speak on behalf of my grandfather, my father, myself, and I would just Like to say YOU ARE WELCOME . I don't like what you say, but I do like that you can say it. No thanks is necessary...

There are no pessimists in skydiving.

My Advice: It's worth what you pay for it, and I'm an expert at it.

[nerdgirl 0]

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It isn't about differentiating it or wearing it on their sleeve, it's about having to hide who you really are to avoid getting thrown out.

On a personal level, I concur.

On a policy level, I’m much more interested -- and very much own this as my prioritization-- in capabilities lost, especially ones that are of US strategic interest. Like loss of Arabic translators.

“‘We face a drastic shortage of linguists, and the direct impact of Arabic speakers is a particular problem,’ said Donald R. Hamilton, who documented the need for more linguists in a report to Congress as part of the National Commission on Terrorism,” [i.e., the Bremer Commission, who released their report in June 2000 - nerdgirl]

A 2005 GAO report, “Financial Cost and Loss of Critical Skills Due to DOD's Homosexual Conduct Policy Cannot Be Completely Estimated GAO-05-299” found that 757 (or 8%) of the 9,488 service members discharged held “critical occupations” such as “voice interceptor, data processing technician or interpreter/translator." In 2005, the GAO estimated that the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (DADT) had cost US taxpayers $191 million since 1993. Some charged that was an under-estimation by $173M. And the GAO responded.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[warpedskydiver 0]

Loss of Arabic speakers is actually intentional, I know of two that were highly skilled Intel weenies and they were simply dumped.

Stellar careers and no effort to retain them.

One had finished 23 years of service and was willing to take a contracting job or non military position.

The other was dumped for a false diabetes screening in such a manner it left him not wanting to come back once that was solved.

Through the network they both discovered it was that they were not Muslims, even though both are very thoroughly versed in that culture.

[skybill 19]

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http://www.sphere.com/2009/11/03/70-percent-of-young-americans-are-unfit-for-military-duty/?icid=main|main|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sphere.com%2F2009%2F11%2F03%2F70-percent-of-young-americans-are-unfit-for-military-duty%2F

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75 Percent of Young Americans Are Unfit for Military Duty
Posted:
11/3/09

WASHINGTON (Nov. 3) -- Are America's youth too fat, dumb or dishonest to defend the nation against its enemies?

The latest Army statistics show a stunning 75 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can't pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

So many young people between the prime recruiting ages of 17 and 24 cannot meet minimum standards that a group of retired military leaders is calling for more investment in early childhood education to combat the insidious effects of junk food and inadequate education.

"We've never had this problem of young people being obese like we have today," said Gen. John Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

He calls the rising number of youth unfit for duty a matter of national security. "We should be concerned about how this will impact this overstretched Army and its ability to recruit."

Hi Andy,
Funny how that goes. I guess they'll reject me outright!! I have 3 screws in my right ankle and a bunch of other stuff. BTW I was 64 on my last B'day Anyway, back in '65 when I was just 20, the local draft board sent a bunch of us guys down to N.O. to get tested, sort of a "pre-screening." Remember, this was '65, the Indo-Chinese war was going on and most of the people here at DZ.COM weren't even born yet!! Well, I don't remember the exact numner of guys that showed up that morning, about 50 or so, 2 or 3 got axed right there for major physical stuff. A couple more just got married the night before. (this was when they were only drafting "single" guys!) and the rest of us got to go to New Orleans. Out of about the 40 or so, about half flunked the physical, some of them I thought for some pretty minor shit. I was in the group that "Passed!!" Last thing was we had to sign off on some form saying we were not involved with and they had a long list of "organizations devoted to the overthrow of our Constitutional form of Government!!" Before the guy gave out the form, the looked at us across the room and said,"You gentlemen are perfect physical specimins!"
BTW, there was no "Group W Bench."
Funny how things change, just a bit less than 2 years later 05DEC66 when I joined the Navy (same place, Customs House at the end of Canal St. in N.O.) they drafted a blind guy even though his seeing eye dog had a flat foot!!!!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out