BSBD Tiller the Baby Killer

[rushmc 18]

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In a sense he is a hero.Hmm, like Bush? He refused to back down from what he believed in,Hmm, like Bush? even though that put his life in danger. he had been shot before in both arms, but didn't let that deter him. I have respect for somebody who continues on standing tall for his legal belief.

I can't think of any Bush actions that would be categorized as heroic, by any definition. He didn't put himself in harms way - he didn't even show for the state national guard.

Standing resolute in ones convictions against political opposition has been labeled courageous at times, but I don't believe I can point to any of those that were made either. Going to war against Iraq was very popular politically in 2003, and up until the 2006 midterm elections which hurt the GOP, not Bush.

"refused to back down", stuck to his guns"

Just using the same standards laided down in the post.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[usedtajump 1]

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You can quote the law all you want to, but the fact is, anyone who kills a baby ten seconds before it takes its first free breath, is the worst kind of murderer, and a few words on a piece of paper, doesn't make it right.

So what do you personally do to change this piece of paper so that abortion is illegal? If you think that killing a doctor and thus taking a life is a good thing then I imagine you're probably PARKING in front of you state capitol building running a campaign.


You might want to read the statement issued by operationrescue.org and other prominent pro-life speakers. They absolutely do not condone murder of any kind. They would have much rather seen George Tiller repent of his sins and close his doors. Murdering an abortion doctor is not the answer. It is the pro-choice folks who are desperately tying to make the pro-life folks look bad by accusing them of condining Tiller's murder when it is not at all true. You just watch. Barack Obama will use this incident to further his support for Sotomeyer and Sebielius who are staunch pro-choice. What the nation doesn't know.

Oh come on now, the "pro life" folks really don't need any help in that department.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[jcd11235 0]

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I'm pro choice. That's actually one of the reasons I think Roe is bad law.

Roe v. Wade is not law. It is a judicial decision that interpreted existing law.

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I believe that the right to be free of government intrusion in reproductive decisions could quite easily be found in the 9th Amendment.

The Ninth forbids a particular manner of interpretation of the Constitution w/r/t rights. It does not, itself, provide rights. The rights have to be found elsewhere, even if they are not enumerated specifically.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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In a sense he is a hero.Hmm, like Bush? He refused to back down from what he believed in,Hmm, like Bush? even though that put his life in danger. he had been shot before in both arms, but didn't let that deter him. I have respect for somebody who continues on standing tall for his legal belief.

I can't think of any Bush actions that would be categorized as heroic, by any definition. He didn't put himself in harms way - he didn't even show for the state national guard.

Standing resolute in ones convictions against political opposition has been labeled courageous at times, but I don't believe I can point to any of those that were made either. Going to war against Iraq was very popular politically in 2003, and up until the 2006 midterm elections which hurt the GOP, not Bush.

"refused to back down", stuck to his guns"

Just using the same standards laided down in the post.

Really? When was Bush shot? When did he put his life in danger after getting shot? Those are the standards in the posting you addressed.

There's a Grand Canyon in difference between the two.

[rushmc 18]

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In a sense he is a hero.Hmm, like Bush? He refused to back down from what he believed in,Hmm, like Bush? even though that put his life in danger. he had been shot before in both arms, but didn't let that deter him. I have respect for somebody who continues on standing tall for his legal belief.

I can't think of any Bush actions that would be categorized as heroic, by any definition. He didn't put himself in harms way - he didn't even show for the state national guard.

Standing resolute in ones convictions against political opposition has been labeled courageous at times, but I don't believe I can point to any of those that were made either. Going to war against Iraq was very popular politically in 2003, and up until the 2006 midterm elections which hurt the GOP, not Bush.

"refused to back down", stuck to his guns"

Just using the same standards laided down in the post.

Really? When was Bush shot? When did he put his life in danger after getting shot? Those are the standards in the posting you addressed.

There's a Grand Canyon in difference between the two.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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In thanatophoric dysplasia, a child is born without the ability to breathe. They slowly suffocate over a few hours. The "lucky" ones live a few years on ventilators. By killing them before they are born, they are saved from a far more horrible death.

Wow...60 THOUSAND babies, all with thanatophoric dysplasia - who would've thought that it was that prevalent?

Stop grasping at straws, Bill. We all know that there are some birth defects that are inevitably fatal at young ages - don't insult our intelligence by trying to make it look like those were the only abortions he performed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wmw999 2,123]

Actually, Mike, he wasn't. He quoted the statistic that roughly 2% of abortions are performed for health/fatal reasons. Several times.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,400]

>Wow...60 THOUSAND babies, all with thanatophoric dysplasia

I never claimed that. Do try to read before replying.

[rehmwa 2]

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In a sense he is a hero.Hmm, like Bush? He refused to back down from what he believed in,Hmm, like Bush? even though that put his life in danger. he had been shot before in both arms, but didn't let that deter him. I have respect for somebody who continues on standing tall for his legal belief.

I can't think of any Bush actions that would be categorized as heroic, by any definition. He didn't put himself in harms way - he didn't even show for the state national guard.

Standing resolute in ones convictions against political opposition has been labeled courageous at times, but I don't believe I can point to any of those that were made either. Going to war against Iraq was very popular politically in 2003, and up until the 2006 midterm elections which hurt the GOP, not Bush.

"refused to back down", stuck to his guns"

Just using the same standards laided down in the post.

nonsense, Tiller stood toe to toe against those 'viable life masses' man to man so to speak, it was him or them - while Bush hid behind a desk

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Actually, Mike, he wasn't. He quoted the statistic that roughly 2% of abortions are performed for health/fatal reasons. Several times.

Wendy P.

and, let's not forget the opportunity to collect those stem cells - that would be another 60,000 lives saved too

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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Actually, Mike, he wasn't. He quoted the statistic that roughly 2% of abortions are performed for health/fatal reasons. Several times.

Wendy P.

Actually, the 2% number is wrong. According to statistics from a 1998 study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute [Planned Parenthood] is that only some 6% of abortions are for health reasons, either fetal or parental. That leaves 94% of all abortions as retroactive birth control, for varying reasons.

I look at his examples, only speaking of fatal deformities in the fetuses and making comparison to gangrenous/cancerous limbs, which gives the false impression that the majority of the abortions are for health reasons, if you miss the (infrequent) mention of the 2% number.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,123]

Did that study include possible mental health issues. Raising the baby that you gave birth to after your father raped you must leave some scars and certainly pulls into questions the level of care some might be able to provide.

I think the whole discussion with regard to this particul case is inane. The Doctor provided a legal service and he got shot multiple times and in the end killed in a church, in front of his wife and other innocent bystanders for providing it. I find it odd some find glee in that.

[billvon 2,400]

>Actually, the 2% number is wrong. According to statistics from a 1998
>study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute [Planned Parenthood] is that only
>some 6% of abortions are for health reasons, either fetal or parental.

6% of all abortions, 2% of late term abortions. Tiller has claimed several times that most of the abortions he did were for health reasons - so if you prefer the higher percentage I will concede the point.

>only speaking of fatal deformities in the fetuses and making comparison
>to gangrenous/cancerous limbs, which gives the false impression that the
>majority of the abortions are for health reasons,

Never claimed that.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Actually, the 2% number is wrong. According to statistics from a 1998
>study by the Alan Guttmacher Institute [Planned Parenthood] is that only
>some 6% of abortions are for health reasons, either fetal or parental.

6% of all abortions, 2% of late term abortions. Tiller has claimed several times that most of the abortions he did were for health reasons - so if you prefer the higher percentage I will concede the point.

I was unable to find anything regarding stats for late-term abortions - care to share a link?

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>only speaking of fatal deformities in the fetuses and making comparison
>to gangrenous/cancerous limbs, which gives the false impression that the
>majority of the abortions are for health reasons,

Never claimed that.

I never claimed you did - only that your choice of examples leads to that conclusion. A small distinction, but an important one.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wmw999 2,123]

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I was unable to find anything regarding stats for late-term abortions - care to share a link?

Wikipedia quotes a Guttmacher Institute study.
The overall reasons were:
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

That 2% was for a late-diagnosed problem. There's a potential that earlier-diagnosed problems are included in either the "took awhile" or "other" categories, and there's none for maternal health. Obviously with those numbers, there's a decent amount of overlap -- women could select more than one reason.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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I was unable to find anything regarding stats for late-term abortions - care to share a link?

Wikipedia quotes a Guttmacher Institute study.
The overall reasons were:
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

That 2% was for a late-diagnosed problem. There's a potential that earlier-diagnosed problems are included in either the "took awhile" or "other" categories, and there's none for maternal health. Obviously with those numbers, there's a decent amount of overlap -- women could select more than one reason.

Wendy P.

Thanks Wendy

I hope all here realize I never ever talked about anything other than "I dont want the baby" (in the late term) cases that do not deal with incest or rape. But those who argue emotionaly NEED that to make them feel whole in their opinion I guess.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,123]

Understand, though, that I can see the reasoning behind most of those. Not that I think that a third-trimester abortion is a good idea, just that a woman (or couple) could end up with that being the only option.

Again, if you don't have regular periods anyway, and don't suffer from morning sickness, it could easily be 3-4 months before it really dawns on you that you're pregnant. Or more if you're fat. Combine that with not knowing where to go to get an abortion, and you have a potential late-term abortion. Certainly a second-trimester abortion.

Even when it's easy to get an abortion, you have to make an appointment with the doctor and have an exam. Most of the time, the abortion probably isn't performed immediately, so there's more of a wait.

Anyone here ever had to wait for a doctor's appointment?

The first 4-5 months of a pregnancy aren't that bad if you don't have morning sickness. The last 4-5 months are where:
- you need new clothes
- your back is more likely to hurt
- you can't sleep all that well
- you're tired much of the time
- your joints become looser and you get clumsy (at least I did)
- if you're active, you have to tone it down or quit
- everyone asks you when the baby (that you weren't ready for) is due,
- maybe people look at you with disfavor because you're single
- having a baby is expensive

those are the tougher months. It's not that the baby isn't worth it -- I have a son, and he's wonderful. But it's not a nit, either.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[funjumper101 15]

Nice to see that you are consistent and on message.

An angry white guy who wants to impose his views of right and wrong on the female half of the population. Way to go, dude.

You can't get pregnant. It is time for you and your kind to take a great big heaping helping of STFU.

You have lived such a perfect life of moral purity that you never engaged in unprotected sex with someone who is not your wife.
You NEVER EVER had sex without contraception.
You are so perfect, you presume to make important medical decisions for women you have never met, and never will.
It must a great experience, to be so far beyond the rest of the common rabble that you can decide such important matters for other people, for example, what a woman and her doctors decide is best for that woman, in that situation.

The arrogance of the "pro-lifers" is astounding. You don't see a whole lot of WOMAN pro-lifers around. It must be something about having a really deep understanding of the issues that keeps them away. The MEN, on the other hand, know FAR MORE about women's health issues and what is good for the "precious vessels" that grow babies inside them. The MEN know what what is appropriate and good for those poor, weak creatures. No WOMAN is capable of making such a momentous decision. That MUST be left to the MEN. Women just don't have what it takes to make these kind of decisions on their own. MEN must approve, or it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! Women NEED a man to help them and protect them from making bad decisions.

Eat that heaping helping of STFU and sign up to be a foster parent to one of the kids that WASN't aborted. There are lots around.

The sick reality of the "pro-life" people is that you all don't give a rats ass what happens to the kids after they are delivered. Those types are also the ones that are adamantly opposed to the programs that offer free pre-natal care to poor women and the free and reduced lunch programs for poor kids in school. A "stinking waste of tax dollars" is how one of your "heros" put it. That would be Lush Rimjob, BTW.

[wmw999 2,123]

Sorry, but there are plenty of women pro-lifers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,400]

No personal attacks. Your one warning.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sorry, but there are plenty of women pro-lifers.

Certainly there are, but when you measure the relative numbers, particularly the ones in speak roles, it seems pretty slanted.

In a somewhat related observation, when I encounter street preachers with megaphones telling us how all us sinners are going to burn in hell, it's pretty near 100% male. At Bay to Breakers, there was a woman next to him holding up a sign.

At risk (I'm not losing sleep) of disparaging the Christians, many of these religious types still have 19th century thinking on women being seen and not heard. And on adopting the political views of their husband.

[DJL 232]

I finally found a picture to summarize debating in this forum.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[nerdgirl 0]

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Nice to see that you are consistent and on message.

An angry white guy who wants to impose his views of right and wrong on the female half of the population. Way to go, dude.

I'm not sure if you perhaps you just replied to the last message ... but in Marc's defense, he's been forthright (and has repeatedly noted in this thread and others previously on abortion) in acknowledging that he doesn't want to impose his views on the female half of the country.

My 70-something mom was an ob-gyn nurse in the years before Roe v Wade. She has horror stories of the trauma women endured emotionally and physically because of the lack of legally available medical abortions -- back alley butchers who fucked with women’s minds and bodies … or just outright killed them -- and women (of all ages & marital status) who ended up killing &/or maiming themselves with bleach and ammonia, or wire coat hangers, or other improvised methods. Wealthy women went overseas for legal medical abortions. She also was an ob-gyn nurse in Tunisia with the Peace Corps – 2nd group that went out, for which I am very proud of her … & has a whole ‘nother story set from there. These days, she’s wants to go volunteer with the Dutch NGO “Women on Waves.”
Here's one just example of what it's like *today* in countries where abortion is not legal and in which fundamentalist religion dominates without rule of law: Abortion Afghan-style in 2009 with razor of 14-yo rape victim by her 20-yo brother to avoid bring shame on the family.

>> … & reason #8733 that I’m glad I’m an American!

Her injuries were treated -- her life saved -- by US military doctors and contractor personnel at Bagram Air Field.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[porpoishead 5]

let's try it this way...

suppose I am a woman that is pregnant (4months just to plug in a number) really contemplating having an abortion, somewhat already leaning towards it in fact


I'm seeking advice help anything..........


have at it go!!!!

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[rushmc 18]

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Nice to see that you are consistent and on message.

An angry white guy who wants to impose his views of right and wrong on the female half of the population. Way to go, dude.You have fucking proved you cant read. I have my opinion DUDE, but I have not advocated making abortion unavailable to any woman

You can't get pregnant. It is time for you and your kind to take a great big heaping helping of STFU.Again you cant fucking read. I can have my opinon and I have expressed it but I have not ( YET FUCKING AGAIN) stated that a woman should not have the right to chose. This is a difficult topic for me

You have lived such a perfect life of moral purity that you never engaged in unprotected sex with someone who is not your wife.
You NEVER EVER had sex without contraception.
You are so perfect, you presume to make important medical decisions for women you have never met, and never will.
It must a great experience, to be so far beyond the rest of the common rabble that you can decide such important matters for other people, for example, what a woman and her doctors decide is best for that woman, in that situation.My belief is you make a stupid dumb, iresponsible ass type decision you need to live with it. But I know understand being responcible is not a strong point with you. ONE MORE TIME. I have not stated I think a woman should not be able to make the choice. I can chose to not agree however. Something you dont fucking understand (YES, i AM PISSED)

The arrogance of the "pro-lifers" is astounding. You don't see a whole lot of WOMAN pro-lifers around. It must be something about having a really deep understanding of the issues that keeps them away. The MEN, on the other hand, know FAR MORE about women's health issues and what is good for the "precious vessels" that grow babies inside them. The MEN know what what is appropriate and good for those poor, weak creatures. No WOMAN is capable of making such a momentous decision. That MUST be left to the MEN. Women just don't have what it takes to make these kind of decisions on their own. MEN must approve, or it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! Women NEED a man to help them and protect them from making bad decisions.
The blind arogance of those who do not feel others have the RIGHT to have beliefs other than yours is now quite apparent!
Eat that heaping helping of STFU and sign up to be a foster parent to one of the kids that WASN't aborted. There are lots around.Now you can STFU because you have proven you dont care to read my posts because you dont agree with me!!!

The sick reality of the "pro-life" people is that you all don't give a rats ass what happens to the kids after they are delivered. Those types are also the ones that are adamantly opposed to the programs that offer free pre-natal care to poor women and the free and reduced lunch programs for poor kids in school. A "stinking waste of tax dollars" is how one of your "heros" put it. That would be Lush Rimjob, BTW.

You have posted one sad son of a bitch post. I have now copied it and you cant delete it. Godd enough for me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln