TrophyHusband 0 #1 February 18, 2009 are they, and why or why not? "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mpohl 1 #2 February 18, 2009 Above all, I am my brother's keeper. If we let go on the basic right to live or help to survive, what is the point of living in a society/nation? Quoteare they, and why or why not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #3 February 18, 2009 They are entitled to emergency health care. No one should be turned away when they are dangerously sick or injured because of their inability to pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropdeded 0 #4 February 18, 2009 QuoteThey are entitled to emergency health care. No one should be turned away when they are dangerously sick or injured because of their inability to pay. Unfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only health care resource.------------------------------------------ The Dude Abides. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #5 February 18, 2009 QuoteThey are entitled to emergency health care. No one should be turned away when they are dangerously sick or injured because of their inability to pay.Quote I agree. They then are billed for services rendered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #6 February 18, 2009 QuoteUnfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only health care resource. Seems like the only option if you don't have affordable health insurance... Unfortunate indeed.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jm951 0 #7 February 18, 2009 According to the Constitution, technically, there is no "right" to healthcare provided by anyone, especially the state. You do have a right to life, meaning the state cannot deprive you of your life without due process. The problem at the moment is the cost of healthcare being driven up because of different factors. Not the least of which are people without ins being seen in ERs. Many of those are/have been illegal aliens who will never, ever pay for the care they get. The system is messed up, but I don't see that adopting socialized, rationed care is the way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildcard451 0 #8 February 18, 2009 Sure they are, if they can pay for it. I am right there with Bill as far as EMTALA and emergency treatment. However, abusing the ER for your cough and cold sx is just asinine. Last time I checked, no other profession is expected to work for free. Why the fuck should I be expected to do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #9 February 18, 2009 >I agree. They then are billed for services rendered. Correct. And a very large percentage do not pay, and are treated again when they return. (Illegal immigrant or not.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #10 February 18, 2009 >Unfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only >health care resource. Yep. Which often leads to the hospital system (and eventually the taxpayers) paying far more than they would have otherwise. It can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat a dangerously ill child with spina bifida. It costs a few dollars for prenatal vitamins. Deciding to not give an indigent pregnant woman minimal care is a decision that anti-illegal-immigrant types might come to - but the result will be far more money out of their pockets in the long run. It's one of the problems with our current semi-pseudo-wink-wink-socialist health care system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #11 February 18, 2009 QuoteIt can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat a dangerously ill child with spina bifida. It costs a few dollars for prenatal vitamins. Deciding to not give an indigent pregnant woman minimal care is a decision that anti-illegal-immigrant types might come to - but the result will be far more money out of their pockets in the long run. It's one of the problems with our current semi-pseudo-wink-wink-socialist health care system. Prenatal vitamins are not prescription only. They are at every walmart, grocery store, and corner pharmacy. They cost approx $15 for 240tabs. AND... women SHOULD be taking it PRIOR to getting pregnant to fully decrease risk of neural tube defects. A good (ish) argument... but not the best. A better one would be offering free vaccinations.... but even though that is provided through several sources, it's still underutilized. But then you get the argument that vaccinations are bad and cause problems.... and the lawsuits..... and those aren't cheap either. Maybe people just have to understand that LIFE is expensive. LIFE has risks. In life, you're not always ENTITLED to an easy answer. You're entitled to life.... but not necessarily at the expense of others. And the next question would be determining what is socially acceptable care for "society"? Basic emergency care? Motor vehicle accident? MVA where he/she wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Skydiving with a miscalculated swoop? Anybody filming a Jackass video? Preventative and primary care? Depression and counseling? Prenatal care? In vitro fertilization? IVF for a 32year old that has been trying for 8years and can't get pregnant? IVF for a 23 year old with two children already? Care of a 23w near viable infant in the NICU for months and months and months? Care of your 89yo grandmother that has ovarian cancer? Care of a type 1 Diabetic 7 year old? Care of a type 2 diabetic 39 year old weighing 345lbs? Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease? In someone exposed to second hand smoke? in a 2 pack per day smoker? Liver failure in a person that over dosed on tylenol with chronic pain issues? in a person with Hepatitis C that caught it from a blood transfusion in the 80's? Hep C from IV drug use? HIV antiretroviral suppression? Antiretrovirals in a patient that will take them occasionally and then build up a resistance to those meds? As a culture in the USA, we are tending to move away from personal responsibility for individual health. Our diets SUCK. Our health habits are horrid. Exercise? But we blame our job. Our children. OUR choices.... it's our choice to take this poor care of our bodies.... We need to change OUR perception. We are entitled to exercise. We are entitled to eat well (not crappy McDonalds) We are entitled to meditate. Not to say that those will save a person with a ruptured appendix.... but it might decrease the hypertension, the diabetes, the anxiety issues..... the chronic stuffs that eats most people up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #12 February 18, 2009 QuoteAccording to the Constitution, technically, there is no "right" to healthcare provided by anyone, especially the state. You do have a right to life, meaning the state cannot deprive you of your life without due process. Well, let's take a look: QuoteWe the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. OK, so, for example, it [e]nsures domestic tranquility and promotes the general welfare. Pretty vague. Deliberately so, I'm sure. Now it becomes a matter of policy to define (debate) those terms to fit the times, and to decide (debate) what items the government will provide through its general revenues (taxes + other income-earning activity), and what items people will have to provide for themselves under the principle of personal responsibility. Because in any society, one person's entitlement is another person's personal responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hwt 0 #13 February 18, 2009 after watching the video of the woman who died after waiting over 24 hours to get help, I became convinced that we do need some form of health care for everyone. Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #14 February 18, 2009 Quoteafter watching the video of the woman who died after waiting over 24 hours to get help, I became convinced that we do need some form of health care for everyone. Blue Skies! You may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #15 February 18, 2009 People are entitled to whatever society decides they are entitled to. Where I come from that implies that I don't have to worry about health care. OTOH the taxes are quite a bit steeper. Where I live now, things are different. I consequently have additional insurance. So, to answer your question: If society decides to foot the bill then yes, people are entitled to health care.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 126 #16 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK. SHOW US please that research that shows that people are dying while waiting for treatment in Canada (any more than anywhere else in the world or in the USA) It is one of the biggest lies in the fight against universal healthcare. If people are dying in Canada waiting for care, then how is it my Mom managed to get a couple knees replacements done in Canada in the past 6 months? I would think (from your statement) all those doctors must be working double time trying to save the 'dying masses' and apparently failing miserably. Now stop your bullshit before this thread goes off the rails again with stats that cannot be supported. Healthcare is a right - in most places in the world EXCEPT the USA. The Constitution has been changed some 27 times since it was written so it ain't perfect either. So just 'cause it ain't in the Constitution does not mean shit. Universal healthcare will happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you want it to or not. It is called progress. And if the Constitution needs to be amended - then that will happen as well. You will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. And yes, people will still die waiting for things that are not available, and people will still die because they are fat, and people will still die in ER's, and people will still die despite our best efforts to save them. All that happens today in the US, in Canada, and in every country in the world. The difference is that no one will go bankrupt just because they had a car accident or fell down the fucking stairs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #17 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK. SHOW US please that research that shows that people are dying while waiting for treatment in Canada (any more than anywhere else in the world or in the USA) It is one of the biggest lies in the fight against universal healthcare. If people are dying in Canada waiting for care, then how is it my Mom managed to get a couple knees replacements done in Canada in the past 6 months? I would think (from your statement) all those doctors must be working double time trying to save the 'dying masses' and apparently failing miserably. Now stop your bullshit before this thread goes off the rails again with stats that cannot be supported. Healthcare is a right - in most places in the world EXCEPT the USA. The Constitution has been changed some 27 times since it was written so it ain't perfect either. So just 'cause it ain't in the Constitution does not mean shit. Universal healthcare will happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you want it to or not. It is called progress. And if the Constitution needs to be amended - then that will happen as well. You will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. And yes, people will still die waiting for things that are not available, and people will still die because they are fat, and people will still die in ER's, and people will still die despite our best efforts to save them. All that happens today in the US, in Canada, and in every country in the world. The difference is that no one will go bankrupt just because they had a car accident or fell down the fucking stairs. Bullshit? Hardly - get off your high horse and do some research. http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/01/illusion-of-socialized-health-care.html http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/article/226Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites futuredivot 0 #18 February 18, 2009 Any time I see the word "entitled" I'm leaning toward no.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 126 #19 February 18, 2009 NONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. All they talk about is the cost. Well the cost may be worth it - to society as a whole. i.e. if medical costs were no part of society, then we should completely ban all the CDC and it's functions, the FDA and all of its functions. But we do not because there is a cost and a VALUE GAINED for their services to the general public as a whole. So it is actually BULLSHIT when you say people are dying in Canada while waiting for health care - or at least it is embellished - since people are dying in the USA waiting for health care as well. I especially like the opening line from the one article you quoted..... QuoteFor all the life-saving technology and drugs available to Americans, the U.S. health care system has serious problems. Many medications, especially prescription drugs, are prohibitively expensive. the system is actually broken - it needs to be fixed. Universal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. Your solution to the broken system would then be.........? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites loumeinhart 0 #20 February 18, 2009 QuoteUniversal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. But the best care is here in the US. You just have to pay for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites prodiver913 0 #21 February 18, 2009 absolutely!!! I personally think it's absurd that you have to pay to stay alive. What kind of fucked up society is this? Doctors and hospitals charge an outrageous fee because they have things like insurance and what not, and health insurance have no choice to raise their premiums because of this. My wife went to the E.R with gastroenteritis, a normal winter bug, and had some fluids, a shot, and an hour or two in the E.R room and the bill was $6000!!!!!! Are you fucking kidding me. Thankfully we have Tricare Prime through the military. So, yes. Getting medical should be a thing that comes with living and even paying taxes. If the U.S gov. didn't waste money and lose money (500 billion unaccounted for in fiscal year 06) we could use that to help offset costs of professionals. Or just encourage them charge nothing or next to nothing. I don't know. What a fucked up, controlled machine we live in. Oh and yeah. Universal Healthcare works!!!!! Everyone I know from France and Canada and the one person from GB loves it. It's the media, and these rich (health insurance bribed and bought) politicians and people who say they're looking out for us that are against UHC and we believe everything we hear in this country so we go with it. Mindless drones are we! I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites loumeinhart 0 #22 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. can't wrap my mind around this, seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danornan 64 #23 February 18, 2009 For a long time I was against universal "free" health care in the US for everyone, but I was wrong and do not see an alternative. From a strictly financial point of view, when you factor in the cost to manage the health care as we know it today in the US; I.E. Insurance Companies, your private company's care (they get to deduct the cost from their tax bill) Federal Govts oversee, Third party not caring what it cost, plus the fact that health care providers over charge to get minimum amount of reimbursement, it will actually cost less. My guess is that less then 1/2 of what is paid actually covers the cost of treatment. The other 1/2 is for it's management. There are too many hands in the pot. Everyone should have some sort of care in a civilized nation and it should not bankrupt them. Life style is the cause of many ills and preventive health care can play a major role in lowering the cost of health care for everyone.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #24 February 18, 2009 QuoteNONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. No, but it outlines the problem. A few minutes on Google produced this as well. (emphasis mine) QuoteTHE SUPREME COURT of Canada just wasn't buying the familiar old case in favour of a PUBLIC HEALTH care monopoly. In rulings that stunned Canadian politicians last week, judges on the top court looked hard at some well-worn arguments against allowing private care - and tore that threadbare thinking apart. In key passages, the outrage of some judges seemed to be showing through their cool, deliberate prose, as they described how intolerably long waiting times for public treatment put individual Canadians through pain and psychological torment, or even allowed them to die because their names fell too far down some specialist's list. "Delays in the public system are widespread and have serious, sometimes grave, consequences," wrote Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin and Justice John Major. "Inevitably where patients have life-threatening conditions, some will die because of undue delay in awaiting surgery." Despite such powerful observations, the judges, like the country, remained split. There is no simple way to sum up the complex set of opinions they delivered. The case they were ruling on was launched by George Zeliotis, a Quebec man who waited nearly a year for a hip replacement in 1997, and his doctor, Jacques Chaoulli. Zeliotis and Chaoulli argued that patients stuck on waiting lists should have the right to private health insurance, since the public system doesn't offer anything approaching a guarantee of timely treatment. Four of the seven justices who heard the case ruled in their favour, striking down Quebec's ban on private insurance for health services that are covered by the provincial plan. Quotethe system is actually broken - it needs to be fixed. Universal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. Your solution to the broken system would then be.........? YOU think the system is broken - I do not. Could some of the inherent cost of the superior care in the United States be reduced? Possibly, almost certainly - but at what cost in quality of service?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VideoFly 0 #25 February 18, 2009 Advances in medical technology make the world a better place. Also, people should care about each other’s health. Fortunately, important people throughout the public sector, including teachers, police officers, firefighters, and others, pursue their careers oftentimes more for altruistic than financial reasons. Why is this not true in the medical profession? Yes, I believe life-saving medical technologies should be available to all people, especially children. As far as the excessive cost of such care, it is the medical profession that’s broken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Coreece 190 #6 February 18, 2009 QuoteUnfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only health care resource. Seems like the only option if you don't have affordable health insurance... Unfortunate indeed.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jm951 0 #7 February 18, 2009 According to the Constitution, technically, there is no "right" to healthcare provided by anyone, especially the state. You do have a right to life, meaning the state cannot deprive you of your life without due process. The problem at the moment is the cost of healthcare being driven up because of different factors. Not the least of which are people without ins being seen in ERs. Many of those are/have been illegal aliens who will never, ever pay for the care they get. The system is messed up, but I don't see that adopting socialized, rationed care is the way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #8 February 18, 2009 Sure they are, if they can pay for it. I am right there with Bill as far as EMTALA and emergency treatment. However, abusing the ER for your cough and cold sx is just asinine. Last time I checked, no other profession is expected to work for free. Why the fuck should I be expected to do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 February 18, 2009 >I agree. They then are billed for services rendered. Correct. And a very large percentage do not pay, and are treated again when they return. (Illegal immigrant or not.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #10 February 18, 2009 >Unfortunately a lot of folks use "emergency health care" as their only >health care resource. Yep. Which often leads to the hospital system (and eventually the taxpayers) paying far more than they would have otherwise. It can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat a dangerously ill child with spina bifida. It costs a few dollars for prenatal vitamins. Deciding to not give an indigent pregnant woman minimal care is a decision that anti-illegal-immigrant types might come to - but the result will be far more money out of their pockets in the long run. It's one of the problems with our current semi-pseudo-wink-wink-socialist health care system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #11 February 18, 2009 QuoteIt can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat a dangerously ill child with spina bifida. It costs a few dollars for prenatal vitamins. Deciding to not give an indigent pregnant woman minimal care is a decision that anti-illegal-immigrant types might come to - but the result will be far more money out of their pockets in the long run. It's one of the problems with our current semi-pseudo-wink-wink-socialist health care system. Prenatal vitamins are not prescription only. They are at every walmart, grocery store, and corner pharmacy. They cost approx $15 for 240tabs. AND... women SHOULD be taking it PRIOR to getting pregnant to fully decrease risk of neural tube defects. A good (ish) argument... but not the best. A better one would be offering free vaccinations.... but even though that is provided through several sources, it's still underutilized. But then you get the argument that vaccinations are bad and cause problems.... and the lawsuits..... and those aren't cheap either. Maybe people just have to understand that LIFE is expensive. LIFE has risks. In life, you're not always ENTITLED to an easy answer. You're entitled to life.... but not necessarily at the expense of others. And the next question would be determining what is socially acceptable care for "society"? Basic emergency care? Motor vehicle accident? MVA where he/she wasn't wearing a seatbelt? Skydiving with a miscalculated swoop? Anybody filming a Jackass video? Preventative and primary care? Depression and counseling? Prenatal care? In vitro fertilization? IVF for a 32year old that has been trying for 8years and can't get pregnant? IVF for a 23 year old with two children already? Care of a 23w near viable infant in the NICU for months and months and months? Care of your 89yo grandmother that has ovarian cancer? Care of a type 1 Diabetic 7 year old? Care of a type 2 diabetic 39 year old weighing 345lbs? Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease? In someone exposed to second hand smoke? in a 2 pack per day smoker? Liver failure in a person that over dosed on tylenol with chronic pain issues? in a person with Hepatitis C that caught it from a blood transfusion in the 80's? Hep C from IV drug use? HIV antiretroviral suppression? Antiretrovirals in a patient that will take them occasionally and then build up a resistance to those meds? As a culture in the USA, we are tending to move away from personal responsibility for individual health. Our diets SUCK. Our health habits are horrid. Exercise? But we blame our job. Our children. OUR choices.... it's our choice to take this poor care of our bodies.... We need to change OUR perception. We are entitled to exercise. We are entitled to eat well (not crappy McDonalds) We are entitled to meditate. Not to say that those will save a person with a ruptured appendix.... but it might decrease the hypertension, the diabetes, the anxiety issues..... the chronic stuffs that eats most people up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #12 February 18, 2009 QuoteAccording to the Constitution, technically, there is no "right" to healthcare provided by anyone, especially the state. You do have a right to life, meaning the state cannot deprive you of your life without due process. Well, let's take a look: QuoteWe the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. OK, so, for example, it [e]nsures domestic tranquility and promotes the general welfare. Pretty vague. Deliberately so, I'm sure. Now it becomes a matter of policy to define (debate) those terms to fit the times, and to decide (debate) what items the government will provide through its general revenues (taxes + other income-earning activity), and what items people will have to provide for themselves under the principle of personal responsibility. Because in any society, one person's entitlement is another person's personal responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #13 February 18, 2009 after watching the video of the woman who died after waiting over 24 hours to get help, I became convinced that we do need some form of health care for everyone. Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #14 February 18, 2009 Quoteafter watching the video of the woman who died after waiting over 24 hours to get help, I became convinced that we do need some form of health care for everyone. Blue Skies! You may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #15 February 18, 2009 People are entitled to whatever society decides they are entitled to. Where I come from that implies that I don't have to worry about health care. OTOH the taxes are quite a bit steeper. Where I live now, things are different. I consequently have additional insurance. So, to answer your question: If society decides to foot the bill then yes, people are entitled to health care.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #16 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK. SHOW US please that research that shows that people are dying while waiting for treatment in Canada (any more than anywhere else in the world or in the USA) It is one of the biggest lies in the fight against universal healthcare. If people are dying in Canada waiting for care, then how is it my Mom managed to get a couple knees replacements done in Canada in the past 6 months? I would think (from your statement) all those doctors must be working double time trying to save the 'dying masses' and apparently failing miserably. Now stop your bullshit before this thread goes off the rails again with stats that cannot be supported. Healthcare is a right - in most places in the world EXCEPT the USA. The Constitution has been changed some 27 times since it was written so it ain't perfect either. So just 'cause it ain't in the Constitution does not mean shit. Universal healthcare will happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you want it to or not. It is called progress. And if the Constitution needs to be amended - then that will happen as well. You will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. And yes, people will still die waiting for things that are not available, and people will still die because they are fat, and people will still die in ER's, and people will still die despite our best efforts to save them. All that happens today in the US, in Canada, and in every country in the world. The difference is that no one will go bankrupt just because they had a car accident or fell down the fucking stairs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #17 February 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK. SHOW US please that research that shows that people are dying while waiting for treatment in Canada (any more than anywhere else in the world or in the USA) It is one of the biggest lies in the fight against universal healthcare. If people are dying in Canada waiting for care, then how is it my Mom managed to get a couple knees replacements done in Canada in the past 6 months? I would think (from your statement) all those doctors must be working double time trying to save the 'dying masses' and apparently failing miserably. Now stop your bullshit before this thread goes off the rails again with stats that cannot be supported. Healthcare is a right - in most places in the world EXCEPT the USA. The Constitution has been changed some 27 times since it was written so it ain't perfect either. So just 'cause it ain't in the Constitution does not mean shit. Universal healthcare will happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you want it to or not. It is called progress. And if the Constitution needs to be amended - then that will happen as well. You will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. And yes, people will still die waiting for things that are not available, and people will still die because they are fat, and people will still die in ER's, and people will still die despite our best efforts to save them. All that happens today in the US, in Canada, and in every country in the world. The difference is that no one will go bankrupt just because they had a car accident or fell down the fucking stairs. Bullshit? Hardly - get off your high horse and do some research. http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/01/illusion-of-socialized-health-care.html http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/article/226Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #18 February 18, 2009 Any time I see the word "entitled" I'm leaning toward no.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #19 February 18, 2009 NONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. All they talk about is the cost. Well the cost may be worth it - to society as a whole. i.e. if medical costs were no part of society, then we should completely ban all the CDC and it's functions, the FDA and all of its functions. But we do not because there is a cost and a VALUE GAINED for their services to the general public as a whole. So it is actually BULLSHIT when you say people are dying in Canada while waiting for health care - or at least it is embellished - since people are dying in the USA waiting for health care as well. I especially like the opening line from the one article you quoted..... QuoteFor all the life-saving technology and drugs available to Americans, the U.S. health care system has serious problems. Many medications, especially prescription drugs, are prohibitively expensive. the system is actually broken - it needs to be fixed. Universal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. Your solution to the broken system would then be.........? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #20 February 18, 2009 QuoteUniversal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. But the best care is here in the US. You just have to pay for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prodiver913 0 #21 February 18, 2009 absolutely!!! I personally think it's absurd that you have to pay to stay alive. What kind of fucked up society is this? Doctors and hospitals charge an outrageous fee because they have things like insurance and what not, and health insurance have no choice to raise their premiums because of this. My wife went to the E.R with gastroenteritis, a normal winter bug, and had some fluids, a shot, and an hour or two in the E.R room and the bill was $6000!!!!!! Are you fucking kidding me. Thankfully we have Tricare Prime through the military. So, yes. Getting medical should be a thing that comes with living and even paying taxes. If the U.S gov. didn't waste money and lose money (500 billion unaccounted for in fiscal year 06) we could use that to help offset costs of professionals. Or just encourage them charge nothing or next to nothing. I don't know. What a fucked up, controlled machine we live in. Oh and yeah. Universal Healthcare works!!!!! Everyone I know from France and Canada and the one person from GB loves it. It's the media, and these rich (health insurance bribed and bought) politicians and people who say they're looking out for us that are against UHC and we believe everything we hear in this country so we go with it. Mindless drones are we! I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #22 February 18, 2009 QuoteYou will spend less money in taxes than you do in health insurance, and you will get 'good' healthcare. can't wrap my mind around this, seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #23 February 18, 2009 For a long time I was against universal "free" health care in the US for everyone, but I was wrong and do not see an alternative. From a strictly financial point of view, when you factor in the cost to manage the health care as we know it today in the US; I.E. Insurance Companies, your private company's care (they get to deduct the cost from their tax bill) Federal Govts oversee, Third party not caring what it cost, plus the fact that health care providers over charge to get minimum amount of reimbursement, it will actually cost less. My guess is that less then 1/2 of what is paid actually covers the cost of treatment. The other 1/2 is for it's management. There are too many hands in the pot. Everyone should have some sort of care in a civilized nation and it should not bankrupt them. Life style is the cause of many ills and preventive health care can play a major role in lowering the cost of health care for everyone.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #24 February 18, 2009 QuoteNONE of those articles you quoted talk or talked about or referenced in ANY WAY, people dying while waiting for health care, which was the premise of your original post. No, but it outlines the problem. A few minutes on Google produced this as well. (emphasis mine) QuoteTHE SUPREME COURT of Canada just wasn't buying the familiar old case in favour of a PUBLIC HEALTH care monopoly. In rulings that stunned Canadian politicians last week, judges on the top court looked hard at some well-worn arguments against allowing private care - and tore that threadbare thinking apart. In key passages, the outrage of some judges seemed to be showing through their cool, deliberate prose, as they described how intolerably long waiting times for public treatment put individual Canadians through pain and psychological torment, or even allowed them to die because their names fell too far down some specialist's list. "Delays in the public system are widespread and have serious, sometimes grave, consequences," wrote Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin and Justice John Major. "Inevitably where patients have life-threatening conditions, some will die because of undue delay in awaiting surgery." Despite such powerful observations, the judges, like the country, remained split. There is no simple way to sum up the complex set of opinions they delivered. The case they were ruling on was launched by George Zeliotis, a Quebec man who waited nearly a year for a hip replacement in 1997, and his doctor, Jacques Chaoulli. Zeliotis and Chaoulli argued that patients stuck on waiting lists should have the right to private health insurance, since the public system doesn't offer anything approaching a guarantee of timely treatment. Four of the seven justices who heard the case ruled in their favour, striking down Quebec's ban on private insurance for health services that are covered by the provincial plan. Quotethe system is actually broken - it needs to be fixed. Universal healthcare is one of the options universally accepted by most of the free world. Your solution to the broken system would then be.........? YOU think the system is broken - I do not. Could some of the inherent cost of the superior care in the United States be reduced? Possibly, almost certainly - but at what cost in quality of service?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #25 February 18, 2009 Advances in medical technology make the world a better place. Also, people should care about each other’s health. Fortunately, important people throughout the public sector, including teachers, police officers, firefighters, and others, pursue their careers oftentimes more for altruistic than financial reasons. Why is this not true in the medical profession? Yes, I believe life-saving medical technologies should be available to all people, especially children. As far as the excessive cost of such care, it is the medical profession that’s broken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
