I just drove past my local Home Depot

[kallend 1,628]

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I know an expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering who is now in his 4th year of waiting for his green card. How fucked-up is that?

Complain to your congressmen. That law is designed to keep him from taking a job away from an American expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering. Apparently there must be an excess of those around compared to the number needed, otherwise your acquaintance wouldn't have any trouble proving that his skills are both unique and necessary, which would qualify him for permanent status.

Oh, he's already proved his qualifications to the govt.'s satisfaction. Just waiting for the wheel to turn.

He'll get it! Good things come to those who wait. I give him a lot of credit for going about it the right way.


Chuck

Advice. Told to me by my uncle many moons ago."Good things come to those who wait." "AND WORK LIKE HELL WHILE YOU'RE WAITING"

Well, as I said, the ranks of the illegals are increased by the competent whom we would like to have here but are denied solely by bureaucratic inefficiency and delay. Improve the approval system and the enforcers would have fewer illegals to deal with.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[happythoughts 0]

I used to do a lot of construction work.
On the union jobs, you were guaranteed that if someone was an apprentice or a joureyman, that they had the skills.

The problem with the non-union jobs was that many people just walked up and said, "I'm a carpenter".
Many didn't even have tools.

There has to be a mechanism to provide quality skill training and certification at the blue collar level.

There are definitely problems with the car industry.
Most of the problems are from a a management level.

The health care program for retirees demands an unsustainable cost structure.

The motorcycle industry didn't build smaller motorcycles, the Japanese came in with Honda.

The Japanese outboard motor industry had oil injection for 8 years before Johnson decided to implement it incorrectly.

For American cars, the dealer service was used as an example in Search for Excellence.

[nathaniel 0]

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legal immigrants are completely different than illegals

Due to the nearly arbitrary ways--people call it a lottery for good reason--in which we've tightened immigration, the distinction is not nearly as clear as it seems.

If we could magically enforce all the immigration laws on our books today it would decimate the economy.

There are clearly undesirables among the mix of illegal immigrants, as there are criminals among our "legal" citizenry. Criminals among illegal immigrants do not justify wholesale deportations of the people whose illegal migration supports our economy, any more than the criminals among us citizens justify locking up the rest of us.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[freethefly 6]

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Construction sites that use these guys undermine the attempts of the unions to build a strong economy.

__________________________________________________________

Thats got to be one of the funniest things I have read in SC in a long time.

Gee, I hope you didn't bust your nut rolling all about yourself.
According to some, the man or woman on the factory floor is crap and not worth more than minimum wage. Hell, you people would be happy to see unions gone and leave it up to the corporation to set the wage. Bill, believes that the worker on the floor would be able to negotiate their wage with management. Would never happen if management had free range on what they would pay. They would pay far under what minimum allows.
My wage in the factory was high, as it should be. I made far more than the guy who swept and for good reason. My job was specialized as not many in there could weld aluminum, copper and bronze. With proper training they could. However, not everyone wants to weld. When I worked as a pipe welder I made union scale there also. Not every welder can weld a vertical up and pass the NDT. With proper training they could. Then again, not everyone wants to weld pressure pipe.
Those wages allowed me to live fairly nice in a nice area. My money was spent in my community. It filtered into the shops around me. If everyone were making chump change, many of the shops we patronize would not be in existence.
Go ahead and use illegals and pay the chump change they are willing to take. That money will quickly leave the area for somewhere south of the border. I much rather pay rate and know that my money stays in the US to support the guy down the road. Not someone south of the border.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[masterrig 1]

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I welcome anyone who wants to come here and work, and hope they are allowed to do so. They are what made america what it is today - indeed, we ARE them.

As long as they come here LEGALLY, I don't have a problem with that, and I don't believe anyone else does. Just like that bad apple, the illegal spoils it for the rest.

I'll carefully NOT make comment on the amounts of illegals that are in prison for various crimes, nor the MECHA/ATZLAN movements...

Then too, there's LULAC out their campaigning to 'protect' the illegals and wanting us to keep them legally. Not to mention the pressure from the Mexican government for us to keep them. To me, illegals just thumb their collective nose at us and just do whatever they want to do. Then too, there's the sob story from each one of them about why they should be allowed to stay after breaking our laws. I had mixed emotions about building a wall on the southwest border. The more I think about it... when do we start! I'll help! Illegals just take... they don't give. I'd better quit... I'm getting angry.


Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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Gee, I hope you didn't bust your nut rolling all about yourself.
According to some, the man or woman on the factory floor is crap and not worth more than minimum wage.

I haven't seen anyone saying that except you. Nice strawman, though.

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Hell, you people would be happy to see unions gone and leave it up to the corporation to set the wage. Bill, believes that the worker on the floor would be able to negotiate their wage with management. Would never happen if management had free range on what they would pay. They would pay far under what minimum allows.

The free market doesn't support your claim. You see, the worker is EQUALLY free to refuse the offer, so the employer can't lowball TOO much.

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My wage in the factory was high, as it should be. I made far more than the guy who swept and for good reason. My job was specialized as not many in there could weld aluminum, copper and bronze. With proper training they could. However, not everyone wants to weld. When I worked as a pipe welder I made union scale there also. Not every welder can weld a vertical up and pass the NDT. With proper training they could. Then again, not everyone wants to weld pressure pipe.

A person with the same qualification could demand a decent wage at ANY welding shop.

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Those wages allowed me to live fairly nice in a nice area. My money was spent in my community. It filtered into the shops around me. If everyone were making chump change, many of the shops we patronize would not be in existence.

Well, except for those union dues...and the money that wasn't coming in when you were told to strike, etc.

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Go ahead and use illegals and pay the chump change they are willing to take. That money will quickly leave the area for somewhere south of the border. I much rather pay rate and know that my money stays in the US to support the guy down the road. Not someone south of the border.

That, I agree with.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[happythoughts 0]

Remember the dot com situation ?
30% of the software people in San Fran out of work?
IT is not unionized.

Some industries are going to have problems.
The car industry can only get worse.
Cars run for 160K miles now, not 70K. It isn't necessary to fix/replace them as often (unless you drive a Chrysler ). Demand will be lower if the product lasts twice as long.

My favorite car ad was the one where Chrysler was touted as having increased the quality of their product by 33%. Wouldn't you feel like an idiot for having bought the "unimproved" car?

"Chrysler... cars that suck for suckers."

GM has the same car assembly line workers as all other car plants. The difference would be the management.

[Zipp0 1]

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Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer.

Actually, to make a very narrow point, I believe that most average, ordinary people are born with sufficient raw intelligence to absorb the education and practical training needed to become reasonably capable doctors or lawyers, given enough time and opportunity. But...that's not the point of the thread.

Agreed. I'd say at least the simple majority (most is too vague and probably overstated) COULD do it. The bigger factor is being willing to do the work.

Or maybe we just have no interest in sticking needles in people or chasing the ambulance. Did you consider that? Maybe we would rather study art, or literature, or music. Or maybe we prefer to work with our hands and create something tangible. There are many different kinds of intelligence, and not all smart people want to be doctors.

The truth is, intellegence and education often has very little to do with income. I know salespeople who sell to doctors and make a better living than the docs themselves. If you are really good at what you do, no matter what it is, you can probably make a decent living doing it.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[masterrig 1]

My favorite car ad was the one where Chrysler was touted as having increased the quality of their product by 33%. Wouldn't you feel like an idiot for having bought the "unimproved" car?

This is way off topic but... you started it!
My favorite commercial for Chrysler was, Ricardo Montalban talking about the wonders of luxurious 'Corinthian leather' upholstry! He admitted, years later that he made that term up... there was no such thing as 'Corinthian leather'! How's that, for selling?

We now return to the topic...


Chuck

[nigel99 144]

Personally I dislike unions and believe much like Bill that people should stand up for themselves. Times have moved on the days of unions truly protecting individuals has past and they probably do more harm than good now.

However valid reasons for a union come at the lower end of the skills spectrum where I don't believe the supply and demand mechanism works very well. Firstly if we take the guy who pushes the broom as an example - if he demands more money then he is out of a job as a spotty faced kid can replace him in 10 minutes. Human nature and greed being what it is companies and individuals WILL exploit the weakest in society. Also less skilled people probably don't have the necessary skills to negotiate a pay rise, HR dispute etc.

In the UK the unions will fight tooth and nail for pay rises, benefits and against cost cutting measures with the end result that EVERYONE loses when the company goes bust or moves to a different country. I guess it is the same in the US.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[billvon 2,400]

>Bill, believes that the worker on the floor would be able to negotiate their
>wage with management. Would never happen if management had free
>range on what they would pay. They would pay far under what minimum
>allows.

And you would have the choice to take it or get a different job. If you had zero skills, it might be worth it to you. OTOH, if you're the only guy there who can program the NC milling machine, they will pay you what you are worth to keep you there.

>My wage in the factory was high, as it should be. I made far more than
>the guy who swept and for good reason.

WHAT? Are you better than him? Why should you get paid more than that poor guy, who probably has kids to support, and who has been there for ten years? It's an outrage, perpetrated by people who never have to push a broom because they think it's beneath their dignity!

Just kidding. You're making a good argument for a free market in wages, as opposed to mandatory limits on wages.

>Those wages allowed me to live fairly nice in a nice area. My money
>was spent in my community. It filtered into the shops around me. If
>everyone were making chump change, many of the shops we patronize
>would not be in existence.

And if every one of those shops had to sell 100% US-made products they wouldn't be in existence either. Wal-Mart would quickly shut them down. We all benefit from cheap labor whether we like to admit it or not, and we support it via our purchasing habits.

[AdamLanes 1]

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With the trades unions you get the best in craftsmanship.

Quality craftsmanship and trade unions are not mutually exclusive.

Quality craftsmanship and non-union shops also are not mutually exclusive. This is the point that I meant to make in my other post.

[freethefly 6]

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A person with the same qualification could demand a decent wage at ANY welding shop.

Not true. I've bounced through quite a few fabrication shops before I got the top pay. Many of those shops did not do certification work. Some did. It was in the union shops that the pay was great. Management in those shops were also great. They were more than happy to know that the guy welding was more than qualified due to his ability to pass any test. The non-union shops paid what they did and if you didn't like it, hit the bricks, which I did. The pay got me through but not what I thought I should be paid for my skill.

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Well, except for those union dues...and the money that wasn't coming in when you were told to strike, etc.

My dues weren't all that bad. 20 some dollars a month. And we never went on strike. Ingersol Rand on the otherhand had no problem sending the jobs to Mexico and putting people on the street to look for another job that will support what they were building on before the layoffs. Layoffs? Are you aware of those?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[AdamLanes 1]

[freethefly 6]

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Remember the dot com situation ?
30% of the software people in San Fran out of work?
IT is not unionized.

And they bitched and moaned about their jobs going to India for the cheap wage.
Those same people thumbed their noses at us on the factory floor when our jobs went to China and Mexico.
Fair turnabout.
Not much anyone can do when the boardroom decides that they would rather pay sweatshop wages overseas than pay a fair wage here at home.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

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My dues weren't all that bad. 20 some dollars a month.

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Plus working assessments, no?

$48.00 per month for medical insurance. Well worth it the same as my union dues were well worth it.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Go ahead and use illegals

First off I am in support of Americans taking back control of their own country dealing with the illegal immigrants. I had 8 great years working in the USA as a legal temporary resident and I was frustrated with how poorly INS treated me near the end of my 8 years while they continue to turn a blind eye to the illegals. I have an illegal Mexican friend in CO who I met skydiving and at the time we joked that he had more security calling the USA a home than I did. But it was no joke. I played by the rules and the rules told me one day that I needed to take my education and 20+ years of experience home while they continue to turn a blind eye to millions of illegals.

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Bill, believes that the worker on the floor would be able to negotiate their wage with management. Would never happen if management had free range on what they would pay. They would pay far under what minimum allows.

I'm sorry you are still stuck in the old industrial revolution model. But the world has changed and what worked yesterday does not work today. Are you willing to adapt to the ever changing world, or do you continue to ask for your outdated entitlements? I negotiate my financial compensation with my employer by myself. I do not need a union to do my negotiating for me. It's called the "free market". Ask too much for your services and the doors close on you. When there is a demand for your services, your pay will rightfully reflect that demand. Look around you. Your desire for your union entitlements have driven businesses away. The world is changing. Are you willing to adapt?

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My job was specialized

This is the thing that gets me about union workers. They are specialized. They only know how to do one task and they are not willing to do other tasks outside of their domain. Joe operates the truck, John operates the lever on the back of the truck. Fred spreads the material on the ground. Steve comes by and soaks the ground with some other product. Frank compresses the material on the ground while Ted sits back waiting to apply some protective coating to the various layers. Stan is there making sure the quality of the finished product meets minimum standards and Tony oversees the entire project. Oh and Sally and Jessy can be seen standing on the side of the road flashing their signs because ... well they have been blessed with huge tracks of land. Each one of these individuals claims they are a specialist and only they know how to do their job and because they are a specialist they demand a premium wage. Of course what happens in the union environment is that 8 people stand around waiting for one person to complete their task. Is there any wonder why industry is leaving the western world. It takes 10 people to do a job that in reality only takes 2-3 people. The private sector could never survive under this model. People are asked to multi-task and they are more marketable because of it.

Come join us in the real world. Learn how to multi-task. It stimulates the brain to be doing a new task each day. I don't know how you one taskers can wake up each day head off to work and do the same thing day after day. That would drive me nuts.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Casurf1978 0]

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Not much anyone can do when the boardroom decides that they would rather pay sweatshop wages overseas than pay a fair wage here at home.

Good point and those savings are passed on to the consumer who demands cheaper prices. Check out your local Walmart and look around to see how many products are made in China. Bottom line is that consumers could careless if a Chinese person gets paid piss poor wages, as long as you can buy cheap products. That's all most people care about.

[normiss 622]

I am continually disappointed that so many people are so short sighted to think that way.

it's NOT all about money...we all realize that at some point in life.

[masterrig 1]

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Go ahead and use illegals

First off I am in support of Americans taking back control of their own country dealing with the illegal immigrants. I had 8 great years working in the USA as a legal temporary resident and I was frustrated with how poorly INS treated me near the end of my 8 years while they continue to turn a blind eye to the illegals. I have an illegal Mexican friend in CO who I met skydiving and at the time we joked that he had more security calling the USA a home than I did. But it was no joke. I played by the rules and the rules told me one day that I needed to take my education and 20+ years of experience home while they continue to turn a blind eye to millions of illegals.

There in lies a huge problem. This country turns you out and you have valuable skills that could help us yet, we send you 'home'. Meanwhile, as you said, we turn a blind eye to the illegals. We are spoon-fed bull-shit from our politicians and big business. We are lulled into a false sense of security about the problem. One or two businesses are raided for illegals and that makes big national news. See? We really are doing something about the problem. Kinda' like the war on drugs? Meanwhile, illegals flood across our border, while we are propagandized into believing 'it's good for our economy... it's good for our nation'. The Mexican government wants our borders open so that we take-in their people they don't want to deal with. The Mexican government supports 'human smugglers' with money sent to Mexico by illegals who are here. We've let this problem go on for over 40-yrs. yet, all we do about it is tie the hands of the Border Patrol and hand-out 'free passes' to illegals... 'catch and release' with a 'promise to appear'. Yeah, right! You make a good and valid point about the situation. Do we really want skilled people like yourself or do we just want cheap labor to make the fat cats fatter. We need to get our politicians to step-up and do something or vote them out and get someone in who will really do something about the problem. I feel bad that this happened to you.


Chuck

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[Rick 67]

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>Construction sites that use these guys undermine the attempts of
>the unions to build a strong economy.

Nowadays unions have one purpose - to get more for themselves and their members. That's it. Claiming that unions want to "build a strong economy" is like claiming that Enron just wants to provide hardworking americans with affordable power. Unions don't care if they bankrupt the company they are taking action against as long as they get another $1.13 an hour for the guy who holds up the "SLOW" sign.

What are you pulling down a year, Bill. More than 50 grand? Are you worth it? You probably believe you are worth far more. Do you believe that you should be compensated fairly for your time and skill? You probably do and so does the man or woman who is busting their ass in all types of weather to build the homes we live in. You union busters are part of the problem. You suit and ties see unions as the enemy when unions work to see that the employee is compensated fairly for their time. That compensation flows right back into the community. The more I make the more I spend. If the employee is only making pennies, that hurts the economy. It hurts the local resturuants. It hurts the local stores. It hurts the community because there is less tax flowing into the city coffer.
You union busters would rather sit back and watch the people who build the buildings you use starve.
I'm not in the unions these days but, if I were to go back into the trades, damn right, union all the way.
My time and skill is worth every dollar.
You folks who believe that the union turns a blind eye to shoddy work have never worked a union jobsite. Shoddy work will get you blackballed. Good luck finding work on a good paying site. They'll have your name. Maybe the illegals will take you.
Hell, if the carpenter isn't worth what he makes then all the suits out there are worth far less as there is no danger in pushing a button. Try working where things are moving. Try working above the ground up on ladders and planks slamming nails. Try it in freezing weather or extreme heat. Try being at the top of a 40 while the winds are slamming you.
So cozy to detest what you do not know, eh Bill?

------------------------------------------------------------

I own a business in Florida. We are not union. I pay my guys well above the average for our industry. We had a job in Atlantic city for a good customer that we do work all over the country for. First day on the job some guy asks my employee if we are union. Of course he answered no. That night "someone" cuts all the wires inside our transformer boxes and along with some other pussy sabotage to our work. Do youthink the union owns that city? We are held to all the same codes and standards as the union. I pay workers comp and liabilility. My guys have health insurance and vacation days. It is this kind of "use my union or I will fuck you up" gangster mentality that I hate. Too bad a union company did not get thejob. Fuck them I have just as much right to do that job as them.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[freethefly 6]

Funny thing (not laughable funny), when I was up on the CP rail in B.C. all was fine until, word got to the authority that I had a DUI sometime back in my past. The Mounties showed up and took me in as an undesirable to be deported. I was told that I was more than welcomed to come visit Canada but I could not work in Canada due to the DUI. A Mountie stayed with me all the way into the US and said goodbye when I past through US customs. Hmmm, oh well, I still like Canada (not real fond of the French Canadians, however. Damn, were they hard to work with)

As for specialized, I am not saying that we in the TIG area were so special that we deserved more. Not at all. What I mean is that the position required far more skill and welding knowledge than the guy who only knows how to squeeze the trigger on a MIG gun. Same as those in the machine shop. These jobs were not OJT. You hired in due to your ability to produce a top quality weld that will not break. During the destructive test, the parent metal better break and your weld must be intact. If your weld breaks, you did not get the job. That simple. There was only 2 TIG welders per shift. Certian fields in the welding industry are specialized and the skills need to be developed to produce the strongest, defect free weld. Those fields get the higher pay. Those who did not develope those skills stayed in the booths that merely threw a bit of weld on two pieces of metal and sent them to the line.

As for muti tasking, we did far more than just TIG weld in our area. We also fabricated our own parts. We ran the CNC turret as well as the CNC brakes. We cut all of our own metal. We built the framework for the portapaks as well as the walls and roofs. It was never the samething each day. All of the units were built to the customers need.
After Ingersol Rand sent these jobs away and shut us down, I put in a bid for the robotic welder and won it. Honestly, I hated the job. It was repetitive and more than boring. Samething day in and day out. These days I'm still trying to make my home business thrive. Sometimes it does well, sometimes it does not. I'm never bored though. I enjoy doing embroidery and t-shirt printing. Being happy with what you do is far more important than the big dollar.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

If there were more companies like yours, I would agree that unions are not needed. I also detest union members who did what was done to your equipment. They are the ones who make union members look like thugs. Not everyone resorts to those types of tactics. They are criminals and I hope they are caught and forced to pay for the damge done.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[JohnRich 4]

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...nearly every post prior to my initial comment in this thread indicated the dislike of "fucking mexicans".

You put that phrase in quotes like it's a direct quote from someone, but the fact is, no one has used that phrase in this thread. You are the first. You shouldn't try and put words in the mouths of others, which they have not uttered.

Ironically, the closest anyone comes to that is Andy, who used "fucking spics". And that's ironic because he was someone trying to accuse others of racism. So you just add to that irony yourself, because now two people who have accused others of racism, are themselves the ones using the derogatory terms for the illegal aliens. Ha!

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As for John Rich, perhaps my hillbilly comment was meant to provoke a sense of irony. Don't be pissed at me because it zoomed over your head.

"Perhaps"? You don't know what you meant by your own statement?

Nothing zoomed over my head. All I see from you is someone who is unable to express their thoughts properly, so the only response you seem capable of making is to portray your opponents as bigots or dunces. And that proves nothing.

And that's exactly what you've done here again, with the "zoomed over your head" comment.

If you expect people to take you seriously, you have to quit insulting them, and actually take the time to try and explain your disagreements using facts and logic. Try that.

[JohnRich 4]

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And it's typical of the pro-illegal immigrant folks

And I've made it clear, in several threads that my objection is not to the position on immigration, it's to some people using the debate as convenient cover to give voice to thinly-veiled racist rhetoric...but with "just enough" plausible deniability.

Please don't cast my words in a light other than what they are, in order to demonize them.

Let me see if I've got this straight:

You take great affront that I've interpreted your comments as implying that you are pro-illegal immigration.

And at the same time you go around accusing others of being racist!

Ha! The irony exhibited here by the defenders of the illegals is quite entertaining.

Do you suppose that the people you accuse of being racist for simply wanting the nation's immigration laws enforced, might be offended by your comments? Feel free to retract them...