I just drove past my local Home Depot

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer.

Actually, to make a very narrow point, I believe that most average, ordinary people are born with sufficient raw intelligence to absorb the education and practical training needed to become reasonably capable doctors or lawyers, given enough time and opportunity. But...that's not the point of the thread.

I work around doctors that have been educated far beyond their intelligence.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I have to wonder if a lot of the union argument isn't a hold over from the cradle to grave employment mindset of the 50's & 60's...can't fire ME...been here to long!

I agree with your points Bill about unions actually discouraging a competitive marketplace...I'm reminded of the old union joke about doing a job, Fast-Cheap-Right...pick any two...well that's not really working too well in the slimmed down JIT world the workplace is/has become.

I agree, the unions have out-lived their usefulness. It's a whole new ballgame, now.


Chuck

I think it is a whole new game. But I work with three different unionized companies every day and they are much better to do business with than most others. Unions also ensure quality work and skilled tradesman.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[masterrig 1]

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How do you propose to secure our borders, both Northern and Southern? Doing away with the Border Patrol is ridiculous.

No, what is rediculous is the thought that we can have better than low to intermediate success with border security. We can't.

You want to talk about a real security risk to the US? Port security.



I'm not proposing elimination of border security either, we just don't need to spend more money on it.

Rather, we should take some of that funding and infrastructure WASTED on securing something that can never be fully secure, and spend it on something that will provide incoming tax dollars to the US. (As well as improved data about the people coming inside the US).

.jim

With our ports being run by foreigners, I can see a real problem there.
My feelings are very strong about securing our borders. One reason is, the increase in the member numbers of the MS13 gang. You need to check these guys out!
We need to vote out, the 'illegal sympathiser' politicians.
Other countries, use their military to guard their borders. With all of our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, the only other choice is the Border Patrol. Then too, I'm concerned right now, with this country and it's security. Whatever that takes.
edit to add: We are sending jobs to foreign countries, the former president of Mexico told Pres. George Bush, he wanted our border 'opened' to the Mexican people and free commerce between the two countries. If, that were to happen, what would happen to this country's individuality? Our soveriegnty would be out the window. We've been propagandized to believe that all this illegal immigration would be 'good' for our country by big business and our politicians. That idea worked back in the 1890's - 1920's with the immigrant population we took in then. It won't work now. Opening our 'doors' to everyone would only put an end to this country as we know it.
We could pull troops protecting the border between North and South Korea and put them on our Southwest border. Write our congressmen and tell them how we feel and let them know that we elected them, we can vote them out. We do have a voice!


Chuck

[freethefly 6]

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>That compensation flows right back into the community. The more I
>make the more I spend.

And if everyone makes a lot, inflation goes through the roof and no one can afford anything (and certainly no one tries to save money!)

If everyone makes too little, you end up in a depression as consumer spending goes down.

Best, therefore, to let the market regulate salaries (and prices) and not try to force your salary higher by participating in coercive practices like strikes.

In a perfect world companies would be willing to pay fair wages but, it is not a perfect world, as you know, most companies would pay the least they could.
You bring up the guy with the shovel or the slow sign. I am sure that you are aware that unions have different scale for different jobs. Not everyone is making $20.00+ an hour. In the factory, I was a tig welder and ran the robotic welder. I made near $9.00 an hour more than the guy who pushed the broom. In construction I contracted siding jobs and when on a union jobsite I still got my $200.00 a square but, I was protected by the union and was guaranteed the work. When working outside the union it was dog eat dog. Low bid gets the job.

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>Hell, if the carpenter isn't worth what he makes then all the suits out
>there are worth far less as there is no danger in pushing a button.

Tell that to a union electrician and you'll have them picketing your office. They'll lecture you on how you're so smug and clueless and have NO IDEA how hard they work, and have no idea how important those buttons are. (I've heard the lecture.)

If your speaking of the factory maintenance electrician, I can agree that they do far less than the guy who is wiring a house. Yet the guy in the factory is doing his job and does not have to worry about someone else of a lower pay grade taken his position. On the jobsite the skilled carpenter, plumber, electrician... make far more than the guy who is hired on to clean up. Not everyone makes a crap load of money in the union.

Everyone speaks has if their job is special and only they can do it. I say bullshit. Everyone may not be able to do any job yet, most people can do many different jobs just as well as the next person. I've worked as an UX/EMF rail inspector, made great money without a union. I've worked as a pipe welder, made great money with a union. Worked construction and made great money with a union. Worked in a factory and made great money with a union. I believe I can perform near any job, given the right training. So could anyone else. Some jobs require a union to speak gor the workers. With Sperry Rail Service, we negotiated our salaries once you became a chiel operator. Your salarie was also based upon your ability to test rail. Not an easy job at all but, most people could learn it. In the factory or jobsite an individual cannot negotiate their pay. Not doable. Factories and construction needs unions. True some locals are crap. Others are great and work well with management. Some factories are great and work well with the unions. Some companies are so great that the union is not needed. Others would pay dirt if not for the collective bargaining table.

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>Do you believe that you should be compensated fairly for your time and
>skill?

Yep! And if I thought I wasn't, I'd quit and get a better job.

Not everyone can do that. You know that is true. If everyone could and did there would be no one to work the factory floors or do other blue collar type jobs. But, I guess we could always use the illegals for those jobs.

I do agree with you on some points but coming from union background and seeing the good and bad of it, I believe there is more good that comes from them. I'll always support union.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[akarunway 1]

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I know an expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering who is now in his 4th year of waiting for his green card. How fucked-up is that?

Complain to your congressmen. That law is designed to keep him from taking a job away from an American expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering. Apparently there must be an excess of those around compared to the number needed, otherwise your acquaintance wouldn't have any trouble proving that his skills are both unique and necessary, which would qualify him for permanent status.

Oh, he's already proved his qualifications to the govt.'s satisfaction. Just waiting for the wheel to turn.

He'll get it! Good things come to those who wait. I give him a lot of credit for going about it the right way.


Chuck

Advice. Told to me by my uncle many moons ago."Good things come to those who wait." "AND WORK LIKE HELL WHILE YOU'RE WAITING"

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 2,434]

>Not everyone can do that. You know that is true. If everyone could
>and did there would be no one to work the factory floors or do other
>blue collar type jobs.

Yep. Intelligence, education, dedication, experience and attitude determine who gets what job. Some have all of the above, and make a lot of money designing stuff, or running a corporation. Some have almost none of the above and sweep the floors.

>But, I guess we could always use the illegals for those jobs.

Or people who can't be bothered to become educated, and have no other qualification other than "I was born in the USA." Of course, often even these people think they deserve a better job - which is why illegal aliens often end up with such jobs.

>In a perfect world companies would be willing to pay fair wages . . .

Well, in your perfect world, companies would be willing to pay fair wages, and no one would ever want a raise. But neither companies nor employees are like that.

In the real world, people want to make as much as possible and companies want to pay as little as possible. Which is basically capitalism in a nutshell. It works because the two play off each other.

The alternative is socialism, where compensation, work hours, vacation time etc is much more rigidly fixed. Sort of the ultimate extension of the union philosophy. It has its merits, but I think capitalism works better in the long run.

>When working outside the union it was dog eat dog. Low bid gets the job.

Yep, which again is capitalism. Most of us participate - low price in the supermarket gets the purchase. Low rate on the mortgage gets the loan. Low cost on the jumps get people to the boogie. You can't do that just in one place; it has to apply to boogies, food, housing AND jobs or the system doesn't work.

>Everyone speaks has if their job is special and only they can do it.

I don't think that's true at all. A lot of people could do my job (after some training and familiarization time.) But I produce pretty well, and so my company keeps me on. Saves them time and money training someone new, and my work there makes _them_ money so they stay in business. If that wasn't true I'd expect to get fired.

>Everyone may not be able to do any job yet, most people can do many
> different jobs just as well as the next person. I've worked as an
>UX/EMF rail inspector, made great money without a union.

Great! That's how the system works.

>I believe I can perform near any job, given the right training. So could
>anyone else.

Generally true. And the people willing to get the education/training get the jobs. (Provided a union isn't keeping them from getting it, that is.)

>Some jobs require a union to speak gor the workers.

That was true 100 years ago, when companies used coercive tactics (including the threat of physical harm) to keep people from leaving. Nowadays you speak for yourself, or speak with your feet if the company isn't listening. If they are so bad that people start quitting, then they go out of business - and it is to your advantage to let your feet do the walking before that happens.

>In the factory or jobsite an individual cannot negotiate their pay. Not
>doable.

Bullshit. "Give me a raise or I quit." If they need you they give you a raise. If not, you quit. If you don't have the courage to do that - shame on you, not them.

>Factories and construction needs unions.

No more so than anyone else. Indeed, unions are often the death knell for companies; witness the US car companies. People nowadays are far better off using their union dues to better educate themselves and get a job in Kentucky working for Toyota than to pay union dues, go on strike and watch as the GM plant gets shut down in Detroit.

[n23x 0]

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With our ports being run by foreigners, I can see a real problem there.
My feelings are very strong about securing our borders. One reason is, the increase in the member numbers of the MS13 gang. You need to check these guys out!
We need to vote out, the 'illegal sympathiser' politicians.
Other countries, use their military to guard their borders. With all of our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, the only other choice is the Border Patrol. Then too, I'm concerned right now, with this country and it's security. Whatever that takes.

I absolutely agree that we should be concerned and take action on the issues that face the USA today. We should be working on the internal issues that we face each day, not blowing billions a week in Iraq! (but that is another conversation for another day)

However, I would only consider border security to be a small, if not insignificant, component in the gang issue. Yes, gangs/organized crime are a problem. But if there isn't an infrastructure to organize gangs members, then gangs won't be a problem. So go after that infrastructure, rather than one of the MANY sources for new gang members. Money better spent, I think!

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the former president of Mexico told Pres. George Bush, he wanted our border 'opened' to the Mexican people and free commerce between the two countries. If, that were to happen, what would happen to this country's individuality? Our soveriegnty would be out the window. We've been propagandized to believe that all this illegal immigration would be 'good' for our country by big business and our politicians. That idea worked back in the 1890's - 1920's with the immigrant population we took in then. It won't work now. Opening our 'doors' to everyone would only put an end to this country as we know it.

Letting new immigrants in won't affect or sovereignty or individuality in the least! Did the US become polish when people immigrated from Poland? Just because we let in more mexicans doesn't mean that we have to take on their laws, politics, etc. However, they are certainly free to bring their heritage, religion, and language, just like our forefathers were allowed to do.

On a side note: Should they learn english? I think so. Communication is a critical component to integration, but I don't have a problem with ESL (english as a second language).

The US has always been a melting pot of people from many different home countries, but that's not a bad thing, nor should you feel that it takes away from your individuality. Remember, the US is not about Group individuality, but Personal individuality.
.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[akarunway 1]

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>Not everyone can do that. You know that is true. If everyone could
>and did there would be no one to work the factory floors or do other
>blue collar type jobs.

Yep. Intelligence, education, dedication, experience and attitude determine who gets what job. Some have all of the above, and make a lot of money designing stuff, or running a corporation. Some have almost none of the above and sweep the floors.

>But, I guess we could always use the illegals for those jobs.

Or people who can't be bothered to become educated, and have no other qualification other than "I was born in the USA." Of course, often even these people think they deserve a better job - which is why illegal aliens often end up with such jobs.

>In a perfect world companies would be willing to pay fair wages . . .

Well, in your perfect world, companies would be willing to pay fair wages, and no one would ever want a raise. But neither companies nor employees are like that.

In the real world, people want to make as much as possible and companies want to pay as little as possible. Which is basically capitalism in a nutshell. It works because the two play off each other.

The alternative is socialism, where compensation, work hours, vacation time etc is much more rigidly fixed. Sort of the ultimate extension of the union philosophy. It has its merits, but I think capitalism works better in the long run.

>When working outside the union it was dog eat dog. Low bid gets the job.

Yep, which again is capitalism. Most of us participate - low price in the supermarket gets the purchase. Low rate on the mortgage gets the loan. Low cost on the jumps get people to the boogie. You can't do that just in one place; it has to apply to boogies, food, housing AND jobs or the system doesn't work.

>Everyone speaks has if their job is special and only they can do it.

I don't think that's true at all. A lot of people could do my job (after some training and familiarization time.) But I produce pretty well, and so my company keeps me on. Saves them time and money training someone new, and my work there makes _them_ money so they stay in business. If that wasn't true I'd expect to get fired.

>Everyone may not be able to do any job yet, most people can do many
> different jobs just as well as the next person. I've worked as an
>UX/EMF rail inspector, made great money without a union.

Great! That's how the system works.

>I believe I can perform near any job, given the right training. So could
>anyone else.

Generally true. And the people willing to get the education/training get the jobs. (Provided a union isn't keeping them from getting it, that is.)

>Some jobs require a union to speak gor the workers.

That was true 100 years ago, when companies used coercive tactics (including the threat of physical harm) to keep people from leaving. Nowadays you speak for yourself, or speak with your feet if the company isn't listening. If they are so bad that people start quitting, then they go out of business - and it is to your advantage to let your feet do the walking before that happens.

>In the factory or jobsite an individual cannot negotiate their pay. Not
>doable.

Bullshit. "Give me a raise or I quit." If they need you they give you a raise. If not, you quit. If you don't have the courage to do that - shame on you, not them.

>Factories and construction needs unions.

No more so than anyone else. Indeed, unions are often the death knell for companies; witness the US car companies. People nowadays are far better off using their union dues to better educate themselves and get a job in Kentucky working for Toyota than to pay union dues, go on strike and watch as the GM plant gets shut down in Detroit.

You're so full of shit it's not funny. I shop at union grocery stores and pay top dollar for a good piece of meat. The top dollars I make go right back into this country. Done w/ this thread. I'll go back to eating my surf and turf and throw some money at the Sierra Club tomorrow. (which I am a member of and the aclu. Ban me if you want but I think> YOU ARE A DICKHEAD

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[masterrig 1]

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I know an expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering who is now in his 4th year of waiting for his green card. How fucked-up is that?

Complain to your congressmen. That law is designed to keep him from taking a job away from an American expert electron microscopist with a PhD in engineering. Apparently there must be an excess of those around compared to the number needed, otherwise your acquaintance wouldn't have any trouble proving that his skills are both unique and necessary, which would qualify him for permanent status.

Oh, he's already proved his qualifications to the govt.'s satisfaction. Just waiting for the wheel to turn.

He'll get it! Good things come to those who wait. I give him a lot of credit for going about it the right way.


Chuck

Advice. Told to me by my uncle many moons ago."Good things come to those who wait." "AND WORK LIKE HELL WHILE YOU'RE WAITING"

Your uncle must be a pretty wise man! I heard it from my Dad.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

Letting new immigrants in won't affect or sovereignty or individuality in the least! Did the US become polish when people immigrated from Poland? Just because we let in more mexicans doesn't mean that we have to take on their laws, politics, etc. However, they are certainly free to bring their heritage, religion, and language, just like our forefathers were allowed to do.

On a side note: Should they learn english? I think so. Communication is a critical component to integration, but I don't have a problem with ESL (english as a second language).

The US has always been a melting pot of people from many different home countries, but that's not a bad thing, nor should you feel that it takes away from your individuality. Remember, the US is not about Group individuality, but Personal individuality.
.jim

All that you just recited is the propaganda we are being fed by our politicians and big business. I'm not buying it... not one bit.


Chuck

[billvon 2,434]

>George Bush, he wanted our border 'opened' to the Mexican people
>and free commerce between the two countries. If, that were to happen,
>what would happen to this country's individuality?

Same thing that happened to our individuality when we were "invaded" by the Germans in the 1750's, I imagine. Here's what Benjamin Franklin had to say about the invasion:

"Why should the Palatine boors be suffered to swarm into our settlements and, by herding together, establish their language and manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us, instead of our Anglifying them?"

Same thing that happened during the Potato Famine with the Irish in the 1850's; New York alone was overrun with over half a million Irish fleeing the famine. The Chicago Post wrote:

"The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country."

Sounding familiar yet?

Strangely, rather than ending the country's individuality, those "invasions" strengthened it. Now we have The Great Gatsby, frankfurters, Oktoberfest and Guiness - and we consider them as american as anything else. We're adding margaritas, burritos, tequila and cinco de mayo to the mix. Our individuality will survive, and indeed will be enhanced by the new additions.

[n23x 0]

Alright. Then why don't you explicitly tell me HOW your individuality and the sovereignty of the nation will be affected. You've certainly indicated that this is true, so it should be hard for you to back it up with legitimate claims.

I'm actually curious on this one, so please don't scoff it off, or I'll be forced to make WHITE PAWRRR!/Confederate flag jokes.

I really am interested in this part of your perspective though.
.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[masterrig 1]

Granted, all that happened. That was then... this is now. I'm sorry but, I can't agree with the 'melting pot' theory any more. It worked when we were becoming an industrialized nation. It worked when we needed the railroads built. We had a mass migration from Europe and for about 40-yrs, we had a tangled mess but, it all worked-out. Once again, I feel, you are co-mingling the two terms... 'legal'... 'illegal' immigrants. I am not and I've said this before, I am not against 'legal' immigration. I am totally against the flood of illegals entering this country. To allow millions of 'illegal' immigrants to enter this country with the hopes they will do the work that others refuse to do doesn't cut it. That, won't work, now. To retain our soveriegnty, we need to 'hold what we got'! Sure, allow 'legal' immigration but, within 'reason'. More and more jobs are leaving this country and our dollar has the value of the Mexican peso of the eighties. When the majority of our Nation is made-up of people who are illegally here from Mexico and farther South, we've lost our soveriegnty. We've lost what the U.S.A. is. I worry about this country and the path that 'big business' and some of our politicians would like us to follow is headed for the toilet. We've already begun, with tacos, Telemundo and Carta Blanca! JMO
Yes, your response is a 're-post' of your response to me in a (similar) previous thread. I might be old but, the memory is there!

Chuck

[masterrig 1]

See my (above) response to Bill.


Chuck

[billvon 2,434]

>I can't agree with the 'melting pot' theory any more. It worked when we
>were becoming an industrialized nation.

And it's even easier today. In the 1750's, the German-Dutch didn't have radios and TV that allowed them to learn english by osmosis. They didn't have Internet access to download the latest fashions from Filene's. They didn't have media that allowed the west coast to see what was going on on the east coast. Today, those conduits "smooth out" our culture, and provide for a more homogenous national self-image - which is both good and bad. Heck, in many places there IS no local culture any more - just an endless sea of McDonald's, Wal-Marts, parking lots, movie theaters and shoe stores.

Today we are far more "melted" than we have ever been. Huge tracts of the US look exactly the same, down to the cigarette butts in the gutters and the droopy jeans on teenagers. That didn't happen in the 1800's.

>It worked when we needed the railroads built.

And now we need crops picked.

>Once again, I feel, you are co-mingling the two terms... 'legal'... 'illegal'
>immigrants.

Not at all. I am against illegal immigration. But that's because it's illegal, not because it will "destroy our culture" or anything. Make the 90% of people who come here to work legal, keep out the 10% who come here to commit crimes, and the problem is solved.

>More and more jobs are leaving this country . . .

. . . because the people in Mexico will work for pennies. Why not have them work here, and let american companies make the money that's now going across the border (and to Taiwan?)

>and our dollar has the value of the Mexican peso of the eighties.

That's a separate problem, and is due to our habit of spending money we don't have - and taking out loans to cover the difference.

>When the majority of our Nation is made-up of people who are illegally
>here from Mexico and farther South, we've lost our soveriegnty. We've
>lost what the U.S.A. is.

We have a problem with illegal immigration, not with our sovereignty or our culture. I welcome anyone who wants to come here and work, and hope they are allowed to do so. They are what made america what it is today - indeed, we ARE them.

[freethefly 6]

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>Some jobs require a union to speak for the workers.

That was true 100 years ago, when companies used coercive tactics (including the threat of physical harm) to keep people from leaving. Nowadays you speak for yourself, or speak with your feet if the company isn't listening. If they are so bad that people start quitting, then they go out of business - and it is to your advantage to let your feet do the walking before that happens.

>In the factory or jobsite an individual cannot negotiate their pay. Not
>doable.

Bullshit. "Give me a raise or I quit." If they need you they give you a raise. If not, you quit. If you don't have the courage to do that - shame on you, not them.

>Factories and construction needs unions.

No more so than anyone else. Indeed, unions are often the death knell for companies; witness the US car companies. People nowadays are far better off using their union dues to better educate themselves and get a job in Kentucky working for Toyota than to pay union dues, go on strike and watch as the GM plant gets shut down in Detroit.

You constantly blame the union for the failures of the US auto industry. The truth is it was management that brought about the failure. Why complain about some guy making $20.00 an hour when the people who actually performed below standards are the people who made the decisions that brought the curtain down? I often heard people blame the assembler for a car that runs like crap. Why not blame the idiot who designed it? How about complaining about his/her over inflated salary. Can't blame the guy turning the bolt if the bolt is not designed correctly. Often the mistakes that upper management makes are corrected by those on the line. Who gets the credit? Management does.
You can sit there on your high horse and boast how easy it is for you to just walk off of a job if you don't like it but, you do not know the story of each and every person sweating on a factory floor. Not everyone has the luxury to just pick up their tools and hit bricks. Sadly, before long there will be very few manufacturing jobs left in this country. Those who do great on the line may not be suited for high tech jobs. Same goes for those in the high tech fields, some don't do well on the factory floor.

The give me a raise or I quit shit would never fly on a factory floor. I have no idea what your experiance working on a line is but, I get the feeling that you have none. If you did, you would know that any position down there can be filled at any given time. If you don't like the pay, hit the bricks. Many stay where they are because they are comfortable. If benefits are good, wages are good they are putting food on the table, keeping a home and saving for their future while they raise their families. You seem to say that these people are lazy, uneducated non-driven fools. You seem to blame them when corporations fail. You seem to know very little about the blue color world. If I am wrong, correct me.
I have a lot of respect for you, Bill but, we'll never agree on this. I come from a union background and will always support the union.
I find it odd that so many want to bash the guy on the floor for wishing to just do his job and make a decent wage but will always defend the CEO's who are pulling down millions while the company sinks due to his inabilty to navigate the ship.
You'll find more pride on the floor than you will in the boardroom.
Next time you go to the gocery store, take a look at the refrigeration units that keep the food cold. Most likely it is a Hussmann. I built that along with everyone else on those lines. I am proud of that. The guy in management can't say that. Drive around back and you'll see a large white trailers. Those are portapaks. I use to build those. Much of the design came from us on the floor. Our input made them better. We found the flaws that were designed into them. We were proud of our work. We corrected them and built them. Management can't say that neither.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[masterrig 1]

Quote

>I can't agree with the 'melting pot' theory any more. It worked when we
>were becoming an industrialized nation.

And it's even easier today. In the 1750's, the German-Dutch didn't have radios and TV that allowed them to learn english by osmosis. They didn't have Internet access to download the latest fashions from Filene's. They didn't have media that allowed the west coast to see what was going on on the east coast. Today, those conduits "smooth out" our culture, and provide for a more homogenous national self-image - which is both good and bad. Heck, in many places there IS no local culture any more - just an endless sea of McDonald's, Wal-Marts, parking lots, movie theaters and shoe stores.

Today we are far more "melted" than we have ever been. Huge tracts of the US look exactly the same, down to the cigarette butts in the gutters and the droopy jeans on teenagers. That didn't happen in the 1800's.

>It worked when we needed the railroads built.

And now we need crops picked.

>Once again, I feel, you are co-mingling the two terms... 'legal'... 'illegal'
>immigrants.

Not at all. I am against illegal immigration. But that's because it's illegal, not because it will "destroy our culture" or anything. Make the 90% of people who come here to work legal, keep out the 10% who come here to commit crimes, and the problem is solved.

>More and more jobs are leaving this country . . .

. . . because the people in Mexico will work for pennies. Why not have them work here, and let american companies make the money that's now going across the border (and to Taiwan?)

>and our dollar has the value of the Mexican peso of the eighties.

That's a separate problem, and is due to our habit of spending money we don't have - and taking out loans to cover the difference.

>When the majority of our Nation is made-up of people who are illegally
>here from Mexico and farther South, we've lost our soveriegnty. We've
>lost what the U.S.A. is.

We have a problem with illegal immigration, not with our sovereignty or our culture. I welcome anyone who wants to come here and work, and hope they are allowed to do so. They are what made america what it is today - indeed, we ARE them.

With all the Spanish language t.v. channels why, would they want to watch 'gringo' t.v.?
Allow enough in, to pick veggies and avocados.
At the present time, we have a problem with illegal immigration and if, we don't do something about it now, it might be a different story in years to come. What about the increase in crime and the increased prison population that is directly a result of illegals. That's why, I say, close the borders so as to get a better idea of who is coming here. Anyhow... that's all I got. Bueno suerte!


Chuck

[headoverheels 291]

You make more than the average wage as a construction worker by virtue of being in a union. What would happen if absolutely everyone were in a union? Well, you would make less than you do now, or at least be able to purchase less with what you make. All similar construction workers in a location would make the same, so those of you now making more will make less. The doctors unions, lawyers unions, engineers unions, CEOs unions, accountants unions would all be making more than you. The McD high school kid burger flippers union would make less, but would be making more than they do now, so you would be paying twice as much for a burger -- maybe a good time to lose weight.

[Zipp0 1]

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The McD high school kid burger flippers union would make less, but would be making more than they do now, so you would be paying twice as much for a burger -- maybe a good time to lose weight.

Oh no!! $2 for a 1500 calorie double cheeseburger?!! The dollar menu would become the 2 dollar menu!! They would have to change the commercial to "Are you a 2 dollar millionaire?"

Noooooo!

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[akarunway 1]

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You make more than the average wage as a construction worker by virtue of being in a union. What would happen if absolutely everyone were in a union? Well, you would make less than you do now, or at least be able to purchase less with what you make. All similar construction workers in a location would make the same, so those of you now making more will make less. The doctors unions, lawyers unions, engineers unions, CEOs unions, accountants unions would all be making more than you. The McD high school kid burger flippers union would make less, but would be making more than they do now, so you would be paying twice as much for a burger -- maybe a good time to lose weight.

LOL. I am 140 lbs. soaking wet. And I don't eat fast food. I do love my custom cut Ribeye and salad every nite tho> THANKS TO MY UNION

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[mnealtx 0]

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I welcome anyone who wants to come here and work, and hope they are allowed to do so. They are what made america what it is today - indeed, we ARE them.

As long as they come here LEGALLY, I don't have a problem with that, and I don't believe anyone else does. Just like that bad apple, the illegal spoils it for the rest.

I'll carefully NOT make comment on the amounts of illegals that are in prison for various crimes, nor the MECHA/ATZLAN movements...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pirana 0]

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I have a 1/2 Mexican, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Native American Indian 2 yr. old granddaughter. Or something along those lines. Heinz 57. Talk about hell on wheels. She's gonna be one chicka you're not gonna mess w/ when she grows up. And the father is ILLEGAL. Imagine that.

Does that give the dad legal status. IIRC, born in the USA makes you a citizen, right? So would they actually deport the dad and allow the kid to stay?parentseans

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[akarunway 1]

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I have a 1/2 Mexican, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Native American Indian 2 yr. old granddaughter. Or something along those lines. Heinz 57. Talk about hell on wheels. She's gonna be one chicka you're not gonna mess w/ when she grows up. And the father is ILLEGAL. Imagine that.

Does that give the dad legal status. IIRC, born in the USA makes you a citizen, right? So would they actually deport the dad and allow the kid to stay?parentseans

From what I understand anymore. NO. And he beat the fuck outta my daughter. If I see him it ain't gonna be pretty. He lucky I'm 3000 miles away and he can go back (and hide) to DURAGO, Mexico

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[pirana 0]

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Most people are not intelligent enough to become a doctor or lawyer.

Actually, to make a very narrow point, I believe that most average, ordinary people are born with sufficient raw intelligence to absorb the education and practical training needed to become reasonably capable doctors or lawyers, given enough time and opportunity. But...that's not the point of the thread.

Agreed. I'd say at least the simple majority (most is too vague and probably overstated) COULD do it. The bigger factor is being willing to do the work. Because I also firmly believe at least the simple majority (maybe most fits better here) are not willing to do the work it would take to pass advanced biology, anatomy, chemistry classes and the like, much less do all of the other work it takes to become a doctor of any kind, much less a good doctor.

Laziness is inherent in humans. How we personally manage it largely determines where we end up. Along the spectrum there are those at one end who will do whatever it takes, damn the torpedoes, no holds barred, outta my way types; and there are those at the other end of the spectrum who are so fucking lazy they keep a warm 12-pack on the floor next to the couch because having a cold one is not worth the work of getting their fat ass off the couch.

It's a choice, and whatever a person chooses is OK. But the warm 12-pack crowd should quit complaining about what the outta my way crowd makes.

And that is what the thread has evolved to. The warm 12-pack crowd somehow thinks they are as valuable. They also think it is good business practice to hold immobile heavy industry hostage and demand to be paid $35 per hour to insert bolt A in hole C. Then they don't get the link when said industry manages to drop them like the dead weight they are. "I've been putting bolt A in hole C for 25 years! How can you do this to me?" Very easy to do when the true competitive market value for putting bolt A in hole C is about $6 per hour.

And paying CEO's the same as the people on the factory floor? Please, is anybody really that naive?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[airdweller 0]

Construction sites that use these guys undermine the attempts of the unions to build a strong economy.

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Thats got to be one of the funniest things I have read in SC in a long time.

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns