Warren Buffett put a billion up for a 300 mpg car

[billvon 2,426]

>The airconditioning won't run without the gas engine running.

?? That's not true of any HSD system vehicle (the Prius, the Highlander, the Ford Escape, the Lexus and the Camry.) A/C runs off the traction battery, not the engine. The mild hybrids (like the Civic) have a button that keeps the engine from shutting down in hot weather, since they _do_ use the engine for A/C.

But when I drive the civic I find that the 'momentum' of the A/C system keeps the car cool for the few minutes when you're (not) idling at a light.

[AggieDave 6]

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?? That's not true of any HSD system vehicle (the Prius, the Highlander, the Ford Escape, the Lexus and the Camry.) A/C runs off the traction battery, not the engine. The mild hybrids (like the Civic) have a button that keeps the engine from shutting down in hot weather, since they _do_ use the engine for A/C.

Ok, thank you for clearing that up for me. They are still costly, though. Not only that, but in my part of the country people have trucks and a lot of them actually use the trucks for something purposeful...Chevy was supposed to release a viable hybrid truck, but we're still waiting. I know that's slightly off the main topic, but that's where the conversation has sort of evolved to.

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But when I drive the civic I find that the 'momentum' of the A/C system keeps the car cool for the few minutes when you're (not) idling at a light.

Remember, when I saw your civic, I was impressed by it. If it wasn't for the cost, it would be in my list for vehicles come next year. I'm getting a new vehicle next year, since my truck has been dying a slow death since the accident. Another truck isn't out of the question, but I'm using my truck as a truck less and less now days (although when I got it I was hauling stuff or pulling a trailer all the time and truely needed a truck).

Still though. The shoe shaped and sized electric car is out of the question since it would only fit me and a sammich.

(Hopefully my lame humor isn't lost on you Bill, since you and I both know I wouldn't fit in that little car with a sammich or not).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,644]

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The Element and Scion are as ugly as they come, and seem to be selling OK.

Thus you prove my point. They're practical vehicles, even if they're ugly as sin.

They fit more then one person and a sammich and they're not very expensive (as cars go).

Not sure that I proved anything, just one more data point.

I don't think ugly is the problem so much as perceived wimpyness. Most American males dislike wimpy cars, and super economy cars are perceived as wimpy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

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I don't think ugly is the problem so much as perceived wimpyness. Most American males dislike wimpy cars, and super economy cars are perceived as wimpy.

The thing is that with cars being viewed as a status symbol, and an indication of lifestyle, then bigger, faster, tougher, equals better.

We have mainstream motorsport competitions entirely based on how fast (and to an extent, whether) a car can complete a given course. The winner (of the publicity) is the car which completes a given course fastest. Little prominence is given to the amount of fuel used.

What prominence is given to a "race" (competition) to see how far cars can go on a set amount of fuel? Are there such competitions? Well, yes. There have been. BUT... They don't garner the publicity or the excitement of a modified truck belting across the desert at 130mph (& 5mpg), do they?

Yet, which is more relevant? The fact that the "works" Chevy trucks can cross the Baja course fastest, or the fact that YOUR Chevy Truck (which shares little with the competition one apart from general shape) costs you less at the pumps?

Until fuel economy can be made "sexy", economical or fuel-efficient vehicles will be largely the preserve of intelligent environmentalists. The rest of the great motoring public will simply confine themselves to grumbling about fuel prices while simultaneously boasting of their vehicles' size power & performance.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[mirage62 0]

1. Needs to hold four people
2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.
3. Needs to sell for less than $25,000.
4. I'm from Ga. it got to have a/c.
5. 100 mpg min.
6. It prob needs to run on gas (for now)

Most folks can't buy two cars, one to commute with and one to drive when the electric car can't do the job.

Ugly but effecent would sale, if the purchase price is right.

Come on Bill for a billion help the USA out

Now where did I put Buffett's phone number.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rehmwa 2]

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2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.

average + 3 or 4 sigma, with perhaps some kind of mod to enable long trips in exchange for mileage or carrying capacity or something.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,644]

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2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.

average + 3 or 4 sigma, with perhaps some kind of mod to enable long trips in exchange for mileage or carrying capacity or something.

Quite common in airplanes to be able to carry full fuel, or full PAX and luggage, but not both at the same time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.

average + 3 or 4 sigma, with perhaps some kind of mod to enable long trips in exchange for mileage or carrying capacity or something.

Quite common in airplanes to be able to carry full fuel, or full PAX and luggage, but not both at the same time.

exactly - now, how to implement a detachable, supplemental fuel tank on a home vehicle use..... One that is idiot proof enough to keep the manufacturer from being paranoid about lawsuits.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,426]

>1. Needs to hold four people.

Four american adults? Why? I think one of the reasons nothing changes is that we've all sort of consensus-agreed that a 'useful' car carries four people, instead of three or two. I owned a Honda CRX two seater for 180,000 miles; it carried only me 95% of the time. When needed it could carry three people, which it did on occasion.

>2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.

Gotta define a) what the average distance driven in a day is and b) what "cover" means. If you can recharge wherever you park, and it takes 5 minutes, then range doesn't matter as much.

>4. I'm from Ga. it got to have a/c.

That's actually easy.

>5. 100 mpg min.

Doable.

>6. It prob needs to run on gas (for now)

That can be done, but insisting on gas basically forces you to use an IC engine, which means that you're going to have top speeds of around 45-50mph (to achieve that gas mileage.) Electric power conversion is a lot more efficient, which is why you can get higher speeds with electric power at better MPG numbers.

>Most folks can't buy two cars . . .

Yet they do. California has more cars than people, and the great majority of families in the US have more than one car. Makes sense to have a commuter car and a family car in those situations.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Just got to thinking, what if Buffett put a billion up for a car that got 300 miles to a gallon, 0-60 in 10 seconds, can hold four adults..... ect, ect.

Something like the rocket into space prize a while back.

You'd have to really think out the rules, like it can't cost a million bucks each.

I know, I know it can't be done - but a billion bucks would motivate a lot of people to work on it.

Building such a car isn't hard. Getting a large number of Americans to buy them isn't practical.

The energy used traveling at steady speed on level ground is a function of speed (we don't want to drive 30 MPH), frontal area (people don't want a small car where they have to sit behind each other like bob sledders), and aerodynamics (they don't want bullet shaped cars).

Energy used accelerating and climbing hills is a function of weight, although people don't want to be on the loosing end in an accident between a 1000 pound car and 6000 pound SUV.

College students have built cars which get 3000 MPG (yes, 3 zeros); although running 30 MPH (doing 60 MPH would quadruple drag), requiring drivers to lie down, having just a .050 liter (yes, 1/20th of a liter) engine, and only 80 pounds of materials providing crash protection aren't things the average buyer will like.

[davedlg 0]

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I meant roads. Things like properly sequencing traffic lights, eliminating traffic lights just put in for political/commercial purposes (we have them around here), "smart" traffic lights that don't leave you waiting 60 seconds burning fuel and making CO2

I agree with you there. There is a lot that can be done with sequencing traffic lights to provide better service, but it has to be done at a city-wide scale to be effective. There are some very sohpisticated dynamic traffic modeling systems that are being tested right now that can litterally reduce the commute times through congested areas by half just by timing the lights correctly with realtime traffic information. As someone who has worked in traffic engineering, it drives me nuts to get stopped at traffic light after traffic light that are not coordinated or are unnessecary. Don't even get me started on how much I detest non permissive left turn lanes (red left turn aarows).

edited to add: I do however believe that there is a lot that can be done in the ways of public transportation and carpooling to reduce congestion and the burning of fossil fuels. It's ridiculous to look around at rush hour and see all the single occupant mega-SUV's sitting there going nowhere.

[mirage62 0]

Well the actual idea for this was to motivate someone to design a car that people would purchase.

Earlier someone mention the VW, that's a good example of what I was after. It sold, it got got gas mileage it carried four people and it was cheap.

I have know idea what the average family size is but mine is five so I need it bigger than you and Amy

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[kallend 1,644]

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Well the actual idea for this was to motivate someone to design a car that people would purchase.

Earlier someone mention the VW, that's a good example of what I was after. It sold, it got got gas mileage it carried four people and it was cheap.

I have know idea what the average family size is but mine is five so I need it bigger than you and Amy

Average US family size = pi

(Yes, 3.14)

So a 3.5 seat car would have a bit of room to spare.
Always a pleasure to be of service, fr.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Any car capable of holding pie meets one of my design criteria.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mirage62 0]

I nticed that they are going to have the "Smart Car" start selling here (USA) next year. That fit's Bill point (two person car) but if a 1965 VW performance what the "standard" and it got - what- 30 mpg and we improved the gas mileage by just 3% a year till 2006 we'd have our four place reasonable performance car that got 100 mpg.

I understand that the motivation hasn't been there to do that (cheap gas) but the VW wasn't fast it wasn't sexy and people bought them - and gas was cheap so there is a market already.

Bill seems to truely believe that it's all can be done now....I just believe it could be done with a car that hold four people.

If only Warren would return my call

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[wmw999 2,146]

I've been reading recently about a couple of companies that are working to convert the Prius to a longer-range electric-only capability, with the gasoline engine kicking in when you've gone beyond the range of the electric motor. Effective mpg in city driving is about 100 mpg. With the gasoline engine kicking in (e.g. on a long trip) it goes back to the "regular" Prius mileage.

You plug them in overnight, but if you can't, you go back to the regular gasoline engine and it recharges the electric system. If you do plug in overnight, then the batteries are charged, and they run most of the time.

I read a figure of $12000 to convert a Prius to such a system; while that's outside of the $25000 or less price range, it's within shooting distance of it.

And it will hold 4 people AND a sammich.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DJL 232]

The real American question over buying a car: "Will I get laid?"

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jakee 1,257]

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And it will hold 4 people AND a sammich.

Hold on now, with 4 people you need a sammich for each person - and I can eat a pretty big sammich.

But back to the point, my dad drives a standard diesel Toyota Yaris (not a hybrid) and gets around 75 - 80mpg. Most of that is not urban driving but it is still very impressive and shows what can be achieved with a regular IC engine and sensible driving.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skydemon2 0]

maybe if the government actually wanted it to happen it would . the gov makes tons of money off of taxe for gas, its their biggest income if I read it right, so you are asking them to lose all that tax money without a way to replace it? I doubt it will ever happen atleast with hydro and elec. they can tax it. If they wanted the gov could release some of the patents they hold on high milage carbs. I can see it know .... we have a car that can get 200 mpg "clap clap clap" oh and by the way because of it you the comsumer get to pay 5 times as much tax on gas and gas will now be 7.50 a gallon.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[billvon 2,426]

>maybe if the government actually wanted it to happen it would.

True. It could just increase CAFE standards, which has proven to be a good way to increase MPG averages in the US.

>If they wanted the gov could release some of the patents
>they hold on high milage carbs.

This is about as real as the pill you add to water to turn it into gasoline. There are no such carburetors and the government "holds" no such patents.

[skydemon2 0]

I beg to differ between the gov, oil companies and auto makers they have all the answers and they are keeping them to themselves.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

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1. Needs to hold four people
2. Needs to cover more than the "average" distance drove in a day.
3. Needs to sell for less than $25,000.
4. I'm from Ga. it got to have a/c.
5. 100 mpg min.
6. It prob needs to run on gas (for now)

It's pretty much already been done.

There’s a British project car called the AeroCarbon.

It's a 4-seat saloon which does 100mpg and runs on petrol. It has a carbon fiber body, Lotus Elise suspension and steering and an engine from Honda. I've no idea how much it would cost as it's not hit the market yet but it's not got any funky technology in it, just a super efficient engine so there's no real reason to assume it would be super expensive (assuming the manufacturer bothered to go for volume sales of course).

The concept car version they demonstrated however did look like a plastic Citroen DS that had been put in an oven for an hour, (for aerodynamic reasons apparently).

[dbattman 0]

I would think electric drive train would be the way to go here as well. IC heat engines just aren't efficent combined with the mechanical drive train and it's component energy losses could we really get that high mileage while staying similar to where we are today in size and payload?

This is something I've long been curious about. The battery pack on the EV1 was about 1000 pounds and gave about 65-80 miles of range. With a consumption rate of 10 KW average at 60 mph could an electric generator be used instead? Here's a web link showng a 15 KW generator at 165 pounds. Then again I don't know the gasoline consumption of a generator that size. The batt pack took up the whole back seat, the generator looks smaller. You'd probably still need a battery to supply peak demand for acceleration. This is along the lines of what the Navy discovered back in the 60s with the efficiency of the electric drivetrain

I drove these EV1s and they were slick- definitely not a golf cart. GM and Toyota both had pretty successful pilot programs and the cars were only available for lease not purchase. When they killed the programs people were lined up to buy the cars and they ended up being crushed. I could only conclude that the automakers did their analysis and discovered that the electric cars would not give them the parts and service profitability that they get from IC.

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

http://www.independentpower.com/pto.htm

I haven't been under the hood of a Prius so perhaps this is how they are setup already?

[billvon 2,426]

>between the gov, oil companies and auto makers they have all
> the answers and they are keeping them to themselves.

So you think GM is keeping secret gas saving technology to themselves to force themselves out of business? Cause Toyota and Honda sure aren't. You can get 60mpg cars today.

[PhreeZone 15]

Exactly.. you can walk to a Honda dealership today and walk out with an Insight that gets 55-65 mpg today but no one will buy them. Instead the SUV's are still in demand. Good news is cars like the Civic are in higher demand and they are double the milage of an SUV.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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