JohnRich 4 #1 October 8, 2004 In the news: California's attorney general wants to crack down on gun violence by laser-branding all handgun bullets sold in the state with tiny identification numbers nearly invisible to the naked eye. Under the plan, all ammunition sold in California would have a serial number etched by laser on the bullet and casing. Bullets without such micro-markings, including those from outside the state, would be barred by law, with some exceptions for sport shooters who make their own ammunition. "It's something that the cops going to a crime scene involving shooting victims, once they recover the spent cartridge or bullets they can look at it right there," she said. "We have a database where they can put the number right in and then drive to the person's house whose bullets they were." Source: Reuters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #2 October 8, 2004 Sounds bonkers to me John.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #3 October 8, 2004 Is that even possible?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #4 October 8, 2004 What a waste of time and money. Steal a box of ammo and you are untraceable. Someone though this one through about as far as the tip of their nose. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #5 October 8, 2004 I think it's a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. You can already link any bullet fired back to the gun that fired it. Admittedly this would allow you to have a database but hell - if I were a criminal I'd just make sure I "made" my own bullets... damn sure you wouldn't be able to tell they were simply bought out of state either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #6 October 8, 2004 Exaclty right. And you know what. The same rationale applies to gun registration. If I were a criminal, I'd just make sure I made my own gun. Or at least bought one with fake identification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #7 October 8, 2004 I hope those idiots in CA. do it.I see an easy way for me to become a multi-millionaire.Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #8 October 8, 2004 all it will do is make it more expensive and a pain in the ass for people using guns legally. it could potentially even cause trouble if, say, a box of bullets is stolen. It is not going to affect the underground by any means, because, they'd just smuggle it from out-of-state. If someone's committing a murder, the last thing on their mind is using an illegal bullet to do it.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #9 October 8, 2004 Just make sure you register take down the numbers from all the bullets you lose or have stolen so that the finger doesn't point at you when they're used in a crime... that is of course assuming you can find the bullet you lost in order to take down the number from it. Oh - and dont ever ever leave any on the range - a crim could come and pick one up, reload it and use it in a crime, again implicating you. You're going to see a lot of people scowering ranges from now on picking up all their spent cases if this goes through. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottishJohn 25 #10 October 8, 2004 buy your bullets out of state if your going to use them for illegle purposes and just "Smuggle" them back into CA. What are they going to do, stop and search every car ? Can't see this one working.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #11 October 8, 2004 Uh... What's with everyone agreeing here? Shouldn't this thread be moved to the bonfire? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #12 October 8, 2004 Ummhhh..... Reminds me of the tags that are added by the manufacturer to explosives which do help in an investigation by identifying the manufacturer, seller and sometimes the purchaser. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 October 8, 2004 The AG, to say the least, is a whack job. The point of the legislation is not to improve crime rates. It's obvious this wouldn't work. But it would drive up the price of ammunition 10 fold. Already there have been several attempts at ammo taxes - we all know the best way to improve gun violence and safety is to make sure everyone practices as little as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #14 October 8, 2004 Quote The point of the legislation is not to improve crime rates. It's obvious this wouldn't work. But it would drive up the price of ammunition 10 fold. Already there have been several attempts at ammo taxes - we all know the best way to improve gun violence and safety is to make sure everyone practices as little as possible. The point of the legislation isn't to improve crime rates, you're right there, but at least give them credit for trying to improve prosecution rates. Why must some people think that every piece of legislation or court decision that has to do with guns is an attempt to drive up prices and run guns out of town? Isn't it possible that some are well intentioned - just not well thought out? The article JohnRich cited said it would add $0.01 to the price of each bullet. I seriously doubt that would be much of an impact to your wallet or deterrent to you going to the range to practice. What I do wonder about is how effective and readable any sort of microscopic laser markings are going to be in the real world.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #15 October 8, 2004 QuoteQuote The point of the legislation is not to improve crime rates. It's obvious this wouldn't work. But it would drive up the price of ammunition 10 fold. Already there have been several attempts at ammo taxes - we all know the best way to improve gun violence and safety is to make sure everyone practices as little as possible. The point of the legislation isn't to improve crime rates, you're right there, but at least give them credit for trying to improve prosecution rates. The problem is, people owning legal ammunition aren't going to write down the serial number of every bullet they own. Suppose a box gets stolen, maybe it's just one box out of twenty or so. The owner might not even realize its stolen. When a murder is committed, there's solid evidence pointing to the wrong guy. If he happened to be alone the night of the murder, and didn't have a good alibi, and couldn't prove he didn't commit the murder, he'd be screwed. This option should not have even made it more than ten minutes of discussion; it is an extremely ridiculously stupid way of trying to raise successful prosecutions. You can pretty much realize how ridiculous it is simply by looking at the responses here; I don't think there's anybody arguing for it ... whereas usually people here are having anyeurisms over the littlest stuff ...This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #16 October 8, 2004 Quote This option should not have even made it more than ten minutes of discussion; it is an extremely ridiculously stupid way of trying to raise successful prosecutions. Extremely ridiculous? Come on . . . the idea has some merits . . . especially if you could convince all the manufacturers to do it nationwide. Not that I think it's a great idea, just that it has some merits. Where I think the NRA would put up a stink is that what it really means is that there would be a record of their ammo purchases, which, I assume is pretty damn close to the idea of gun registration. Afterall, if you buy ammo, you pretty much have to assume somebody owns the gun capable of shooting it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 October 8, 2004 Quote Why must some people think that every piece of legislation or court decision that has to do with guns is an attempt to drive up prices and run guns out of town? Isn't it possible that some are well intentioned - just not well thought out? The article JohnRich cited said it would add $0.01 to the price of each bullet. I seriously doubt that would be much of an impact to your wallet or deterrent to you going to the range to practice. "Paul Curry, a lobbyist for Ammunition Coding System, a Washington-state based firm that developed the bullet etching system, said the requirement would add about 1 cent to the cost of each bullet sold." Let's just say that I don't believe that estimate for one moment, and let's consider the source. If done universally, it might be that cheap to do on the manufacturing. But it doesn't stop there - records have to be made and maintained for all ammo sales. No way will that be done for a penny. 1 penny per is a 10% increase in the cost of 9mm ammunition. It's a 50% increase for .22LR, the kind many use to do a heck of a lot of practice with. As you yourself question, what value would it really be? Is a slug going to have a recognizable marking? Marking the shell has no merit. So it's easy to conclude that this is just yet another "reasonable" step to fight crime, all while increasing the cost of gun ownership substantially. Just like a ballistic fingerprinting requirement for new sales. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 October 8, 2004 Quoteif I were a criminal I'd just make sure I "made" my own bullets... Or maybe just have a stolen gun. Naw, a criminal is not that smart, they al go and buy their guns real legal like in gun shops. Waiting periods and all.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 October 8, 2004 QuoteExtremely ridiculous? Come on . . . the idea has some merits . . . especially if you could convince all the manufacturers to do it nationwide. Not that I think it's a great idea, just that it has some merits. Where I think the NRA would put up a stink is that what it really means is that there would be a record of their ammo purchases, which, I assume is pretty damn close to the idea of gun registration. Afterall, if you buy ammo, you pretty much have to assume somebody owns the gun capable of shooting it. Cool, now we can put serial number and track the buyers of high performance parts for cars and motorcycles, and maybe not sell nirous kits to those under tha age of 25. Then there will be less street racing accidents. Or I know, micro chips implanted under your skin that are GPS trackable. Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Am I laying it on thick enough? Keep the goverment outta my house. They need no more information about me.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InflightSupv 0 #20 October 8, 2004 QuoteIn the news: California's attorney general wants to crack down on gun violence by laser-branding all handgun bullets sold in the state with tiny identification numbers nearly invisible to the naked eye. Under the plan, all ammunition sold in California would have a serial number etched by laser on the bullet and casing. Bullets without such micro-markings, including those from outside the state, would be barred by law, with some exceptions for sport shooters who make their own ammunition. "It's something that the cops going to a crime scene involving shooting victims, once they recover the spent cartridge or bullets they can look at it right there," she said. "We have a database where they can put the number right in and then drive to the person's house whose bullets they were." Source: Reuters The post didn't say anything about cash sales. How are they gonna know, who bought which group? So if I go to WalMart and pop down a 20 and are they gonna record my name as a cash buyer? Are they requiring a database to attach lot numbers with peoples names that purchase them? Thats scarier than the bullets being etched. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcrocker 0 #21 October 8, 2004 Quote The post didn't say anything about cash sales. How are they gonna know, who bought which group? So if I go to WalMart and pop down a 20 and are they gonna record my name as a cash buyer? Are they requiring a database to attach lot numbers with peoples names that purchase them? Thats scarier than the bullets being etched. The $20 you have in your pocket probably came from an ATM which can track the serial number and your bank card. Walmart can use a 'frequent shopper' discount card to track the information as well. The serial number/mylar strip in the $20 was read as you walked into the store. And don't forget RFID tag that was embedded into your skull when you were born. You would be amazed at how much information you already have in databases. The really scary part is when the databases start getting linked in the name of 'homeland security'. Maybe I should just get the barcode tatooed on my forehead now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #22 October 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteif I were a criminal I'd just make sure I "made" my own bullets... Or maybe just have a stolen gun. Naw, a criminal is not that smart, they al go and buy their guns real legal like in gun shops. Waiting periods and all..... I wonderd why your jails are so full, Now I know Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #23 October 8, 2004 QuoteI wonderd why your jails are so full, Now I know Our jails are full because the punishments are not working. For those that are in the criminal element, the "punishment" is just too easy. If we started sooner and made real punishments for smaller crimes, people would think twice about commiting bigger ones. [dream mode on] "Hmmm let's see, I went to a hard labor camp for 6 months when I spray painted that guys car. Man the camp sucked, they made me work hard each day, then school at night, and I had to do well, or they'd add more time. Do I really want to hold up that liquor store? That guy I know who got 20 years in the camp dor armed robbery and is still serving it." [dream mode off] Crap, we are such pussys in this country when it comes to punishing people for crime. It's still a slap on the wrist for a DUI. Uhg. I feel a rant coming on.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #24 October 9, 2004 Quote I wonderd why your jails are so full, Now I know Our jails are full of recreational drug users. If we were less uptight about that segment of the population, the jails could be used more effectively. But we're not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #25 October 9, 2004 QuoteWhere I think the NRA would put up a stink is that what it really means is that there would be a record of their ammo purchases, which, I assume is pretty damn close to the idea of gun registration. Afterall, if you buy ammo, you pretty much have to assume somebody owns the gun capable of shooting it. Bingo! It took 16 posts for someone to figure out what this *really* means: Ammo registration. That's closely akin to gun registration. If you have a list of everyone that buys ammo, you've got at least a partial list of everyone that owns a gun. Now the store will have to record the purchaser's identity, and the serial number range of the bullets being purchased, which will have to be marked on the outside of the box. A clever criminal can just switch ammo from one box to another on the store shelf, to mess up the serial number records. All of this info will have to be collected by law enforcement, regularly, from every Wal-mart and other store that sells ammo, and put into some huge, expensive government database. Ammo registration has been tried in numerous localities. It has always proven worthless as a crime-solving tool. There is usually no relationship between recent shootings and recent ammo purchases. After a few years of futility, they always revoke the law and abandon the idea. It's a waste of police resources, that could better be used patrolling the streets. Ammo lasts for decades. I often shoot WWII surplus ammo, which if stored properly, is still quite reliable. So if they pass this law, does that mean they're also going to outlaw all other ammo which does *not* have serial numbers on it? This would eliminate all military surplus ammo, as well as ammo sold in other states. And that brings up the issue of ammo-smuggling. A black market would develop to supply criminals with out of state ammo, which doesn't have serial numbers on it. And then of course, there has to be a law to prohibit bringing ammo into the state across the border. And many innocent gun owners will be ensnared by this law, who had no criminal intent. A criminal could just take a knife and scrape off the micro-engraved number from the soft lead, or soft copper jacket. He's going to kill someone close-up, and doesn't care about long-range accuracy. Besides, a lot of bullets break-up on impact, and don't leave much to analyze. How are they going to preserve the serial number through impact of soft lead with bone? A whole bunch of crimes won't even have a serial number remaining to trace. The closest thing currently in existance to this is the so-called "ballistic fingerprinting", where a cartridge case is test fired in each gun at the factory, and sent to the state to have their unique machine markings recorded in a database. Despite years of such effort, no crime has yet been solved by this system. So what effect will the serial numbers have on the precision accuracy demanded by many competitive shooters? It's not going to solve any crimes. It's going to cost a lot of money. And it's going to inconvenience a lot of honest gun owners. So that means that the anti-gun folks will love it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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diablopilot 2 #23 October 8, 2004 QuoteI wonderd why your jails are so full, Now I know Our jails are full because the punishments are not working. For those that are in the criminal element, the "punishment" is just too easy. If we started sooner and made real punishments for smaller crimes, people would think twice about commiting bigger ones. [dream mode on] "Hmmm let's see, I went to a hard labor camp for 6 months when I spray painted that guys car. Man the camp sucked, they made me work hard each day, then school at night, and I had to do well, or they'd add more time. Do I really want to hold up that liquor store? That guy I know who got 20 years in the camp dor armed robbery and is still serving it." [dream mode off] Crap, we are such pussys in this country when it comes to punishing people for crime. It's still a slap on the wrist for a DUI. Uhg. I feel a rant coming on.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 October 9, 2004 Quote I wonderd why your jails are so full, Now I know Our jails are full of recreational drug users. If we were less uptight about that segment of the population, the jails could be used more effectively. But we're not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #25 October 9, 2004 QuoteWhere I think the NRA would put up a stink is that what it really means is that there would be a record of their ammo purchases, which, I assume is pretty damn close to the idea of gun registration. Afterall, if you buy ammo, you pretty much have to assume somebody owns the gun capable of shooting it. Bingo! It took 16 posts for someone to figure out what this *really* means: Ammo registration. That's closely akin to gun registration. If you have a list of everyone that buys ammo, you've got at least a partial list of everyone that owns a gun. Now the store will have to record the purchaser's identity, and the serial number range of the bullets being purchased, which will have to be marked on the outside of the box. A clever criminal can just switch ammo from one box to another on the store shelf, to mess up the serial number records. All of this info will have to be collected by law enforcement, regularly, from every Wal-mart and other store that sells ammo, and put into some huge, expensive government database. Ammo registration has been tried in numerous localities. It has always proven worthless as a crime-solving tool. There is usually no relationship between recent shootings and recent ammo purchases. After a few years of futility, they always revoke the law and abandon the idea. It's a waste of police resources, that could better be used patrolling the streets. Ammo lasts for decades. I often shoot WWII surplus ammo, which if stored properly, is still quite reliable. So if they pass this law, does that mean they're also going to outlaw all other ammo which does *not* have serial numbers on it? This would eliminate all military surplus ammo, as well as ammo sold in other states. And that brings up the issue of ammo-smuggling. A black market would develop to supply criminals with out of state ammo, which doesn't have serial numbers on it. And then of course, there has to be a law to prohibit bringing ammo into the state across the border. And many innocent gun owners will be ensnared by this law, who had no criminal intent. A criminal could just take a knife and scrape off the micro-engraved number from the soft lead, or soft copper jacket. He's going to kill someone close-up, and doesn't care about long-range accuracy. Besides, a lot of bullets break-up on impact, and don't leave much to analyze. How are they going to preserve the serial number through impact of soft lead with bone? A whole bunch of crimes won't even have a serial number remaining to trace. The closest thing currently in existance to this is the so-called "ballistic fingerprinting", where a cartridge case is test fired in each gun at the factory, and sent to the state to have their unique machine markings recorded in a database. Despite years of such effort, no crime has yet been solved by this system. So what effect will the serial numbers have on the precision accuracy demanded by many competitive shooters? It's not going to solve any crimes. It's going to cost a lot of money. And it's going to inconvenience a lot of honest gun owners. So that means that the anti-gun folks will love it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
