Pammi 0 #1 September 30, 2001 ....that you will see someone burn in. I hope and pray that what I saw today doesn't end in losing another skydiver. We don't know right now. A good friend of ours failed to flare, at all. Right now we know that his pelvis, back and leg are broken. They were flying him to Tulsa when we brought the kids home, but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't make it as Cushing is so small they send them out over smaller things. Pray for him guys, please.What I keep asking myself, after seeing this, do I want to keep jumping? We all know this can happen, and does, but seeing it makes it all so REAL. It seems selfish with my kids to possibly make them watch the same thing with me one day. Hemp/skydiving jewelry pics! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #2 September 30, 2001 i have talked to some experienced people who haven't seen it and then some who have been in for less than 10 years and saw quite a few (Rob Harris for one). So, I guess it is where you jump and how much you are there. I hope to God I never have to witness it or BE it. Blues!--------------Brandon Wren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freaksister 0 #3 September 30, 2001 Send me a private message, Pam...I am so sorry that happened. My condolences, and I hope he recovers.The Freak KittyI lust for the ultimate rush... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #4 September 30, 2001 Condolances from Ohio too.....I am glad that he didnt bounce though. Sure glad that they made it. --------------Brandon Wren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #5 September 30, 2001 Hey PammiI don't really follow the talk back forum any more and I haven't posted in quite some time. But felt a tug to look tonight for some reason and saw your post. I only met you and Merrick once and have been to Cushing just the once but I do feel a kinship to you guys. My prayers are with our fellow skydiver and his family and all who were there.Now as to you! What you witnessed is like a car coming to a red light and not applying breaks. I wasn't there nor am I in any way judging our friend that's injured, but please don't question yourself on other's actions. You are a great ambassador for skydivng and we as skydivers need you. So enjoy yourself and feel no guilt for your kids, just be safe and you'll do them justice.I hope you and Merrick are well, I thought about him just today. I had to pack a Sabre190, what a bitch, Merrick I don't blame you for wanting to down size!Bleau SkiesLarry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #6 September 30, 2001 Prayers said for the jumper and for you and your family. I have no words to help you through this, Pammi, except this is something that we will all have to deal with, some way or another. If you decide to stop jumping, be peaceful with that, and happy with that decision.If you decide to continue jumping, be peaceful, too. I konw that I don't want you to stop. Blessing to you, Merrick, your little ones, and to the jumper.Ciels-Michele"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky". ~e e cummings~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiventom 0 #7 September 30, 2001 Hi,I have known three people, that in my opinion, did not need to die in this sport.The first was a lovely young woman I did'nt know very well. She was 27 I think and married less than a year... I admired her for the way she was so willing to tell how much she loved her husband.... she shot tandem video and in my opinion was an excellent skydiver... anyhow, she had fairly large breasts and wouldn't fasten her chest strap until just ready to jump. On her last jump she fell out of her rig. I hurt just thinking about it... Such a lovely person with so much life to give and live... The second was Jan Davis. She shot tandem video as well. She took me under her wing when I first started shooting a few years ago. She smoked and drank Budweiser... I admired her because of her drive. She had both hips replaced. She would land on her butt all the time because she was so careful... the one thing she kept telling me was "BE SAFE" I could go on.. but let me just say that she pounded some very basic things into my head such as "don't go low, at break off dump and fly your canopy down." many things I have taken into my thoughts when I shoot. From what I understand... one of her hips popped out of it's socket. She got it pushed back in and convienced everyone (even herself) she was fine and could jump. She went in on the next jump. They found her reserve lines wrapped in her ring site. Most think maybe her hip popped out durnig deployment and caused her to become unstable.... Both of these women were very, very good skydivers with years and many jumps... The third was a man with about 68 jumps. I was talking with him on Saturday night. He told me he was saving to buy a really nice helmet. I think a Z1 or something.. I don't remember... I told him to buy a ProTec then save for the nicer one.... his attitude was very strange... there was definately a very strong ego thing... anyhow, the next day he cut away between 300 and 500 feet from what people have told me was a good canopy. I guess the lesson I think of most is... "do what you are supposed to do... don't take things for granted.... don't let your ego, need to work or comphort keep you from doing all of the safety things that we all do..... I'm feeling like I'm rambling on.. so I'll stop.... writing.. I love skydiving =-)Blue Skies"yah can't take life too seriously, we're not gett'n outt'a here alive anyways" -Red Skelton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiventom 0 #8 September 30, 2001 Thanks for your kind words...... "yah can't take life too seriously, we're not gett'n outt'a here alive anyways" -Red Skelton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #9 September 30, 2001 Quote She would land on her butt all the time because she was so careful... And if you were in the area where she landed, she would draft you to carry in her rig.. Quote the one thing she kept telling me was "BE SAFE" I could go on.. but let me just say that she pounded some very basic things into my head such as "don't go low, at break off dump and fly your canopy down." I'll bet the words she used were a little tougher than you let on.....at least, the ones she used when telling me that type of thing were.. I spent a few days jumping with her a couple weeks before she went in, and will remember some of those conversations forever..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #10 September 30, 2001 >What I keep asking myself, after seeing this, do I want to keep jumping? We all know this can happen, > and does, but seeing it makes it all so REAL. It seems selfish with my kids to possibly make them >watch the same thing with me one day. It is a question with no easy answer. You can die if you make a mistake in this sport; you can die even if you don't make a mistake. If the benefit you get from doing it outweighs the chances of you going in, then it may be worth it to continue. If not, then stopping may be a good decision for you. There is no answer that works for everyone.Twice in my life I've watched close friends of mine go in, and both times I tried my best to save their lives. Both times it didn't make any difference - they would have been just as dead if they'd landed right outside a trauma bay. Yet still I sort of blamed myself. I seem to go out of my way to take on responsibility - JM, instructor, S+TA - and I felt like I had failed them, somehow, like I hadn't lived up to my most important responsibility, to keep them alive. It makes no sense in retrospect, but that's often true of our emotions.Harry's death I could put down to a mistake. John's death was a lot harder to deal with, because he made a mistake that I myself had made on the same jump. He just plain didn't clear his airspace during a track. I could pretend that I would never make the same mistake Harry made (stall/spin on turn to final) but I couldn't do the same for John's death. That could have been me, and only blind luck put me out of harm's way on that dive. For me, though, the lure of that blue sky was greater than the black death I knew was waiting for that one slip-up, that one unlucky day. I kept jumping.I wrote a thing on John's death; it's at http://people.qualcomm.com/billvon/essays/joh.html if you want to take a look. There are no cosmic relevations there, just my attempt to come to grips with what happened. I wish you strength in your attempt.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #11 September 30, 2001 Bill, excellent essay. the things that were running through your head while you were providing care are just like us professionals have. MarcBecause I fly, I envy no man on earth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #12 September 30, 2001 Thank you guys so much for your notes and thoughts. You don't know how much I appreciate it. Even as I stood there, feeling helpless, he kept saying how mad he was that he'd 'screwed up'. Another jumper was flying the other direction with completely no winds, right at dusk, and I believe he thought he'd been cut off. Still, as I was told by others, he simply fu**** up by not flaring at all. Only he knows the whole story why, of course. I was very glad we had an paramedic jumper there (first time he'd been back in a while also) that was a great help. The DZO was fabulous and amazing. When we left the hospital he was going to be flown to Tulsa, but when we called back from home, they said he was going to stay at least overnight and a specialist was being called in today. The DZO said he must've been made of rubber because he might have actually only dislocated his leg and may be okay!I don't know what I'm going to do. I want to keep jumping. The kids were there also at the DZ, along with a friends' kids. Only one was outside when it happened, and I don't think she saw it, but I shoo'd her inside so as not to hear him. They all seem to be taking it very well. I feel a little better this morning and in my heart I want to keep jumping. I probably will. The thing that worries me, I guess, is that we all fuck up sometime. A little or a lot, I have already, luckily a little. As Bill said, sometimes we are simply lucky. It just worries me that I might be the 'big fuck-up' at some point. Something to think about, but as Merrick said too as we watched a car pull out to pass moments before another car came, things like THAT can also happen...not jumping doesn't necessarily make you safe of course.I know, all the old arguments just being brought back up. They were just all brought back up in my head and I wanted to get the perspective of others'. Thank you guys again. PHemp/skydiving jewelry pics! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #13 September 30, 2001 Thank you Tom. You honor their memories with your thoughts and words of them.Hemp/skydiving jewelry pics! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #14 September 30, 2001 I just wanted to note for those who've been at OSC, it was Charlie that was hurt. If I find out anything further, I'll let you guys know. Hemp/skydiving jewelry pics! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #15 October 1, 2001 pammi,sorry to hear about this and how close to home it was for ya.... alot of what i'm gona say most likely has already been said......evry skydive i think about how much fun i'm gona have..i can't think about anything else...if i though how i could go in on this jump , every jump it would just freak me out...yet it's there in the back of my mind, i always know it could happen, but i can't really think about it. like every time ya get in your car if ya though you could be in a horible accident and die/ be paralized for the rest of your life even to no fault of your own, would ya still drive? do what ya love!!!! don't think about the bad stuff, yet never put it compleatly out of mind, just tucked away there so ya don't get complacent....life: a sexually transmitted disease that is !00% fatal"up my noooossseee"- wingnut, at first euro dz.com boogie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFKING 3 #16 October 1, 2001 Hey Pam --I hope Charlie's okay, and that it IS only a dislocation....A gentleman named Gary and I were the only two students in my FJC (static-line). After training, we went and made our first jumps...I went out and flew all over the place, landed off, and came back full of smiles. Gary went up, flew his canopy perfectly until time to flare....and never flared at all. He stuck his feet out in front of him, then hit square on his ass, and broke his back in two places. He had discs fused, was in a body cast for three months, and at last report was walking again, and willing to try it again, but his doc won't let him. My JM pulled me aside after the ambulance carried him away, and we had a very long talk about it. He said you always have to weigh the enjoyment of jumping against the possibility of injury, because you can screw up and die, and you can also do everything right and still die......the odds are greatly against it, but it happens......those thoughts are always in the back of my mind, but I try to block them out, and concentrate on what I need to do.Just out of curiousity, I have a question for you and all the other parents of pre-teens......do you as a rule bring them to the DZ, and, if so, do you try to explain the fact that things can go terribly wrong, or do you wait until something happens, and THEN try to explain ? I know this depends greatly on the age and maturity of the child, but.....? The reason I ask is because my 8-year-old nephew has been agitating his mother to take him to "go see Uncle Don fly" since I started this, but my sis isn't at all thrilled with the idea of him seeing someone get hurt, or worse......I never talk about it with him anymore, because I want to keep peace in the family........how do y'all handle it ? He takes karate classes, and plays baseball, and I know he would enjoy watching the canopies swoop the landings...Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #17 October 1, 2001 Okay guys, here's the haps on Charlie...Last Saturday night, on the last load of the day Charlie failed to initiate any flare at all and hit the ground in full flight. He was flying his Sabre 150 which he was loading at just over 1.1:1. At the time of the accident, Charlie had just over 220 jumps, 150+ of those this year so he is very current. It was the sunset load and by the time the jumpers came in for landing, we were in that weird 15-30 minute window of twilight time where depth perception is tricky at best. Another jumper was completing a very high-speed hook running west to east, Charlie was approaching north to south over the hangar. He was looking at the other jumper trying to decide if he needed to correct his approach. He looked at the exact same instant he should have started flaring. He snapped his head forward to look at his approach and hit as soon as he turned to look. There was no time to flare.Charlie apparently struck legs first, bounced a foot off of the ground and came to a stop and did not get up. An ambulance was called and he was taken to Cushing Regional Hospital.The doctor initially stated that he possible had a crushed back & pelvis. The X-rays came back and they then stated that he possibly had a dislocated left ankle, compression of his spine and a good deal of soft tissue and muscle damage on his left side.Today, we heard that he has a badly sprained ankle, compression and the soft tissue & muscle damage. Charlie's new nickname is probably going to be Gumby after this one. When I left the DZ, the latest news was that the doctors were probably going to release him in the evening.I'm sure Charlie learned from this one, we're all glad he's going to be okay and some of us are secretly glad that they cut his orange jumpsuit to shreds when they cut it off of him. (Well, it was hideous).I could offer a lot of probables and what-ifs here but I won't. We know the rules... Complacency kills, shit happens, keep your head on a swivel, fly the pattern, always pull, always flare.That's my $0.02Kris"I tried to get a rectangular bear for monthsEnded up I had to get a polar bear and use trig..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFKING 3 #18 October 1, 2001 Glad to hear he'll be okay...Quote some of us are secretly glad that they cut his orange jumpsuit to shreds when they cut it off of him. (Well, it was hideous).ROFL !......mine has been called the same (actually, "hideous" was one of the tamer descriptions...)Kris, I like your sig too...Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #19 October 1, 2001 "do you as a rule bring them to the DZ,"I had my son for most of the summer this year. I took him (he's 6) to the DZ with me every weekend. He absolutely loved going down there. We didn't talk about people getting hurt really. I just never brought it up and neither did he. He sure loves to watch me jump though. Kids aren't stupid...they understand that people get hurt. They just don't really understand the "real" consequences. I'm not sure at what age it stops becoming an abstract thing to you. I think for me I was at least 20 before death became a real thing for me. Bill...blaming yourself is all part of a natural progression called "Survivors Guilt" People get it in all kinds of situations. I had a boss and friend in the military that 10 yrs after the fact still had survivor's guilt from the Gulf War. Those people were trying to kill him. It's far worse when you lose a friend as I did in March of this year. He was killed in the Kuwaiti desert about 4 months after I got out of the military. That drove me nuts for a while and it still makes me feel a little guilty that I'm not out there doing the job any more. Just something you have to get past I guess.Hope the injured heal quickly. He owes beer!Eat Drink Fuck and Skydive!"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-MeClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Donna 0 #20 October 1, 2001 QuoteI have a question for you and all the other parents of pre-teens......do you as a rulebring them to the DZ, We have 3 kids. Our older two (13 & 15) have better things to do and hardly ever come with us. Our 10 year old daughter, on the other hand, comes with us almost every weekend. She loves it there and has a great time. We don't specifically say anything to her about accidents but around our house we openly talk about all the latest injuries and deaths we hear about. Our kids are very aware of the risks involved. They also know we try our best to be as safe as possible. I do worry some about her being there. Last year my husband and I were both on the same plane when it had a very bad spot and both of us landed out and were missing for some time. It was VERY scary for her to be driving around with other jumpers trying to find her parents and not knowing if they were ok. My husband only had minor injuries but I was hurt. She was pretty shook up about the experience for quite some time. I haven't been on the same plane as my husband since. We would really like to jump together soon and plan on doing so but it will be a day that she isn't with us. While I think it's fine for jumpers to bring their own kids I think we need to take the concerns and feelings of other kid's parents into consideration about bringing their kids. Our daughter had been asking if her best friend could come some day. When I brought it up one time to her friend's parents I got the distinct feeling they definitely didn't want her there. They recently lost their oldest son in a car accident and I totally respect their concerns. I explained to my daughter why I didn't want her asking for her friend to come any more. I think you are smart to not push it with your nephew. Maybe in the next year or two as your sister gets more comfortable with the idea of skydiving she will change her mind and bring your nephew out some day. Good luck! Skies,D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,147 #21 October 1, 2001 Just wanted to post my thoughts for the injured and wishing Pammi strength in her decision making.Blue Skies,SkyDekker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiventom 0 #22 October 1, 2001 Hi, I shoot video. I sometimes wonder if most people in formations realize just how important it is to track and clear the airspace. I've had too many times seeing someone below me reaching to dump...... it is a wonderful sport... It is dangerous... we have to be aware.... Blue Skies"yah can't take life too seriously, we're not gett'n outt'a here alive anyways" -Red Skelton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #23 October 1, 2001 good point.....and i like your sig too!! HOW TRUE!!--------------Brandon Wren Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFKING 3 #24 October 2, 2001 Donna, Clay...thanks. I'm going to show these to my sis, but I don't think it will help.I've even offered to take him and NOT jump ; just show him around, and explain how everything works......I mean, what kid wouldn't love to see 20+ jumpers opening at the same time ?Maybe she's afraid he'll become a skydiver.....Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #25 October 2, 2001 Quote ROFL !......mine has been called the same (actually, "hideous" was one of the tamer descriptions...) Well, I'm sure if I get injured, no one will shed a tear for my jumpsuit either. And for those of you who complimented me on the sig, thanks. I like to throw out a weird one every now and then...KrisWhen people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's stick'."-Bakunin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
