Which AAD to get? Vigil II, Cypres 2, M2?

[PhreeZone 15]

Throwing this out if anyone ever needs to know it - Cost of an Astra servicing is looking to run 185 plus shipping and they quote turn around of 30 days after they examine it and then need to include shipping also.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[virgin-burner 1]

Andrei_Serban

And how much does it cost to have this done?

(With Cypres it's 250 euros, here in Europe; that includes batteries but not the shipping.)

just had my cypres maintained, cost me CHF 220.-, that is roughly EUR 200.-, shipping included. you're being ripped off by jack the rigger.

as to the OP: the cypres may cost more, but i'm pretty certain it will ALWAYS fire when it has to and wont when it's outside the parameters, e.g. slamming the trunk closed in your car while still turned on. with EVERY other AAD, i would not be so certain.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[lyosha 46]

virgin-burner

***And how much does it cost to have this done?

(With Cypres it's 250 euros, here in Europe; that includes batteries but not the shipping.)

just had my cypres maintained, cost me CHF 220.-, that is roughly EUR 200.-, shipping included. you're being ripped off by jack the rigger.

as to the OP: the cypres may cost more, but i'm pretty certain it will ALWAYS fire when it has to and wont when it's outside the parameters, e.g. slamming the trunk closed in your car while still turned on. with EVERY other AAD, i would not be so certain.

The problem with the Cypres is that noone outside of cypres knows those "parameters". Cypreses have fired both too early and too late, with absolutely no explanation from Airtec aside from "it fired when it was supposed to". People have died.

Vigil, on the other hand, in detail explains how their device works, what factors affect when it will fire and allows you to download the data yourself. Complete transparency.

Go with Vigil in my opinion. Transparency matters. More than you would think.

[Unstable 8]

I would generally recommend against the M2. I was an Argus user back in 2006-2007 when they had only been on the market for a few year, and that didn't turn out too well. Cypres 2 and Vigil 2 have proven themselves to such an extent that the risk of you having an expensive paperweight is minimal.

=========Shaun ==========

[mark 102]

Unstable

I would generally recommend against the M2. I was an Argus user back in 2006-2007 when they had only been on the market for a few year, and that didn't turn out too well. Cypres 2 and Vigil 2 have proven themselves to such an extent that the risk of you having an expensive paperweight is minimal.

On the other hand, the US distributor for M2 is Alti-2, a company with a very good reputation. And we hope everyone has learned something from the Argus experience.

-Mark

[chuckakers 370]

councilman24

In 10 years your Vigil with have 10 year old software.

Educate me. Why does having 10 year old software matter? Does something happen to software over time?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[lyosha 46]

chuckakers

***In 10 years your Vigil with have 10 year old software.

Educate me. Why does having 10 year old software matter? Does something happen to software over time?

This is mainly relevant for AAD firmware in the advent new features are added to the firmware. This happened only once in the ~20 year history of AADs though.

Cypres added altitude offset (raise/lower fire altitude) to its units recently, and have been updating them whenever they get sent in for their four year inspection.

But that's been the only change to the firmware on any AAD that I know of since inception.

Philosophically, I would not want an AAD that would *need* its firmware updated every four years. That is a sign of very very shitty software design and implementation, and fuck that I'm not trusting my life to that.

[nigel99 144]

lyosha

******In 10 years your Vigil with have 10 year old software.

Educate me. Why does having 10 year old software matter? Does something happen to software over time?

This is mainly relevant for AAD firmware in the advent new features are added to the firmware. This happened only once in the ~20 year history of AADs though.

Cypres added altitude offset (raise/lower fire altitude) to its units recently, and have been updating them whenever they get sent in for their four year inspection.

But that's been the only change to the firmware on any AAD that I know of since inception.

Philosophically, I would not want an AAD that would *need* its firmware updated every four years. That is a sign of very very shitty software design and implementation, and fuck that I'm not trusting my life to that.

Airtec state that they update firmware as part of the 4 year service, but not what they do. As far as I'm aware no firmware revision is published so we don't know how often they do updates.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[councilman24 36]

There have been more updates than the one you mentioned.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Unstable 8]

Quote

And we hope everyone has learned something from the Argus experience.

Yes. Don't buy a safety-critical device until it has proven itself in the market. Cypres2 or Vigil2 it is.

=========Shaun ==========

[piisfish 135]

Unstable

Quote

And we hope everyone has learned something from the Argus experience.

Yes. Don't buy a safety-critical device until it has proven itself in the market. Cypres2 or Vigil2 it is.

are you aware that the manufacturer of the M2 has been around more or less the same time than AAD/Vigil ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[piisfish 135]

lyosha

The problem with the Cypres is that noone outside of cypres knows those "parameters". Cypreses have fired both too early and too late, with absolutely no explanation from Airtec aside from "it fired when it was supposed to". People have died.

Vigil, on the other hand, in detail explains how their device works, what factors affect when it will fire and allows you to download the data yourself. Complete transparency.

Go with Vigil in my opinion. Transparency matters. More than you would think.

hahaha there is a lot of funny stuff in there.

Less the "people have died" part, that is not funny.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[lyosha 46]

councilman24

There have been more updates than the one you mentioned.

What did I miss?

[Unstable 8]

Quote

are you aware that the manufacturer of the M2 has been around more or less the same time than AAD/Vigil ?

Has the Manufacturer of the product been around that long or the product itself? I may be misunderstanding, and if so,I'm more than happy to eat crow.

=========Shaun ==========

[DougH 270]

Unstable

I would generally recommend against the M2. I was an Argus user back in 2006-2007 when they had only been on the market for a few year, and that didn't turn out too well. Cypres 2 and Vigil 2 have proven themselves to such an extent that the risk of you having an expensive paperweight is minimal.

Unless I am wrong Argus had no track record in this industry, so that isn't a fair comparison to MarS a.s.

They have been making AAD's since 2003.

http://www.m2aad.com/about-us

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DougH 270]

Unstable

Quote

are you aware that the manufacturer of the M2 has been around more or less the same time than AAD/Vigil ?

Has the Manufacturer of the product been around that long or the product itself? I may be misunderstanding, and if so,I'm more than happy to eat crow.

No idea how much longer the manf. has been around, but they have been making AAD's since 2003.

This product variation has been around since 2011.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Unstable 8]

Quote

No idea how much longer the manf. has been around, but they have been making AAD's since 2003.

This product variation has been around since 2011.

Perhaps I have been giving it an unfair rap.

=========Shaun ==========

[DougH 270]

That is why I bought one, despite watching friends lose cash to Argus purchases. I figured this was a better gamble, and I honestly would like to see more competition in the market. I was also sick of sending in my Cypress II.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Unstable 8]

Quote

That is why I bought one, despite watching friends lose cash to Argus purchases. I figured this was a better gamble, and I honestly would like to see more competition in the market. I was also sick of sending in my Cypress II.

that was my biggest concern - I send in my argus each 4 years, but that is a fraction of the cost. I would second the comments here about Advanced Aerospace Design being a more 'open' company.

Does the M2 offer a 2-pin system?

=========Shaun ==========

[councilman24 36]

lyosha

The problem with the Cypres is that noone outside of cypres knows those "parameters". Cypreses have fired both too early and too late, with absolutely no explanation from Airtec aside from "it fired when it was supposed to". People have died.

Vigil, on the other hand, in detail explains how their device works, what factors affect when it will fire and allows you to download the data yourself. Complete transparency.

Go with Vigil in my opinion. Transparency matters. More than you would think.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

lyosha

******And how much does it cost to have this done?

(With Cypres it's 250 euros, here in Europe; that includes batteries but not the shipping.)

just had my cypres maintained, cost me CHF 220.-, that is roughly EUR 200.-, shipping included. you're being ripped off by jack the rigger.

as to the OP: the cypres may cost more, but i'm pretty certain it will ALWAYS fire when it has to and wont when it's outside the parameters, e.g. slamming the trunk closed in your car while still turned on. with EVERY other AAD, i would not be so certain.

The problem with the Cypres is that noone outside of cypres knows those "parameters". Cypreses have fired both too early and too late, with absolutely no explanation from Airtec aside from "it fired when it was supposed to". People have died.

Vigil, on the other hand, in detail explains how their device works, what factors affect when it will fire and allows you to download the data yourself. Complete transparency.

Go with Vigil in my opinion. Transparency matters. More than you would think.

I've never seen A.A.D.'s (Vigil's maker) software either. I HAVE seen the reports that support the statements you quoted. The data often shows that the speed component wasn't reached until much lower than altitude component. Or that it was turned on somewhere else. Or that speed component was reached under canopy before ANY aad was ready for high speed dives.

What turned me off Vigil from the initial announcement was they said "Just use the cypres container components." Vigil didn't HAVE components. AirTec had spent years and tens of thousand of dollars convincing container manufacturers to make their products cypres ready. Gave the components to the manufacturers free! Changed the paradigm of experienced jumpers not going near an aod (old acronym) to becoming widely accepted. Vigil wouldn't have had a market to enter without all of the effort by Helmut to save lives. Add in patent infringements and you have the reason A.A.D. has never been voted into membership of PIA. Vigil USA is a member. Those who claim it's because Cliff was PIA's President didn't set through all of the meetings and votes. Along with AirTec doing it better IMO.

What I observe is that often those of us that have been around for the entire history like the Cypres and AirTec better. Those that don't know the entire story by into Vigil's marketing and anti Cypres opinions.

Those who know me know I'm not a dealer or associated with any aad manufacturer.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[lyosha 46]

That sounds like a lot of politics

I'm not buying into the hype. I like that it is possible to download and review the data. That is very instructional in keeping me safer.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

Add in patent infringements and you have the reason A.A.D. has never been voted into membership of PIA. Vigil USA is a member. Those who claim it's because Cliff was PIA's President didn't set through all of the meetings and votes. Along with AirTec doing it better IMO.

You need to be voted in to be a member of PIA? It's not enough to be a manufacturer of a parachute related company and pay your dues? That knocks PIA down at least 2 notches in my eyes. I thought it was an association for parachute related companies. Now I find out that it's more of an exclusive club dedicated to preserving the status quo in the market. They refuse to admit AAD as a member? AAD is a major manufacturer with a large and growing market share. And you don't think Airtec and SSK have something to do with keeping them out?

It says a lot that although AAD is not in enough favor to join the club, the Vigil USA is allowed in. We all know who owns that company. None of this looks very good on PIA.

Airtec did indeed go a long way in revolutionizing AADs. But that does not entitle them to expect an iron grip on the market. Even if the owner is very popular within the club.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mcordell 2]

Unstable

Does the M2 offer a 2-pin system?

No, it is a 1 pin AAD only

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Rstanley0312 0]

lyosha

******And how much does it cost to have this done?

(With Cypres it's 250 euros, here in Europe; that includes batteries but not the shipping.)

just had my cypres maintained, cost me CHF 220.-, that is roughly EUR 200.-, shipping included. you're being ripped off by jack the rigger.

as to the OP: the cypres may cost more, but i'm pretty certain it will ALWAYS fire when it has to and wont when it's outside the parameters, e.g. slamming the trunk closed in your car while still turned on. with EVERY other AAD, i would not be so certain.

The problem with the Cypres is that noone outside of cypres knows those "parameters". Cypreses have fired both too early and too late, with absolutely no explanation from Airtec aside from "it fired when it was supposed to". People have died.

Vigil, on the other hand, in detail explains how their device works, what factors affect when it will fire and allows you to download the data yourself. Complete transparency.

Go with Vigil in my opinion. Transparency matters. More than you would think.

This statement and opinion is garbage. Please cite sources and while you are at it... your experience with them as well as jump numbers etc.

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