Trust and Happy Hour

[skybytch 259]

It was brought to my attention recently that excerpts from the chat logs from last Wednesday's Happy Hour have been distributed by email to selected people without the knowledge or consent of those who were involved in the chat. Now maybe this is just me, but I have a problem with that.
Granted, we should all know that what we say in an IRC chat room is recorded on a log that all of the sysops (those with an @ in front of their names) have access to. In a "regular" chat room, where the participants probably don't know each other by real name or interact outside the chat room, there is less risk involved in having those logs made public or spread around by email. imho, because we all know each other's real names and interact here on the forums all week long (and many of us also at our dz's on the weekends), our Happy Hour is _not_ a "regular" chat room.
If you've been to Happy Hour, you know it can get kind of raunchy - we're all skydivers and most of us are drinking as we are typing; for me it's much like the conversation around a bonfire at the end of a day of jumping. Personally, had I known that my words would be sent by email to others without my permission or knowledge I would not have gotten quite as raunchy as I did.
For me, this is an issue of trust - trust that what happens in the chat room will stay in the chat room. While I still plan to be there this Wednesday, I will be very careful about what I say. At this point I don't feel that I can trust the ops to keep what is said from being spread around our community - and for all I know spread beyond our community as well.
If you were there, how do you feel about your words being sent without your knowledge or consent to others who may or may not have been there? Am I wrong to think that what happens in the chat room should stay there?
Discuss....
pull and flare,
lisa

[ChromeBoy 0]

Hell no you are not wrong Lisa. This chat is a form of entertainment for each of us that allows us to laugh, get to know other skydivers, and be able to ask skydiving related questions to our peers for feedback.
Because of the different ages of the participants and the fact that "most" of us are single there will be jokes and phrases we use that are meant to make people laugh and have a good time. I know that I for one feel much more comfortable telling things over a chat where nobody really knows you. I know I would not be as direct if I was sitting amongst you all. I would say the things I say in a laughing manner to make someone feel comfortable and have a good time.
Should you be more conservative over the chats? I don't think so. If someone truely believes that all the things said during this is true, they are living in a fantasy world.
As for as e-mails being sent around with exerpts from the chat, this is stupid. It would be like printing out the chat room so you can read it all week. Who has time or even wants to do that. The thing about a chat room is it is in the moment and we are all just being fun and having a good time. If you were not able to make the chat, your loss. Why do you want to gossip about it? Get a life.

[AndyMan 7]

It's more then just the ops that can have logs. The Chat runs over IRC, and people can use tools like MIRC or Trillian to connect instead of the Java based CHAT in the pub. I do this myself because I find the java chat client dificult to use. Anybody who uses their own IRC client could setup that client to generate logs.
I don't see the logs as a big deal, actually. People who are in the room see what I type first hand, and I don't have a problem if somebody who wasn't there hears about it over a beer (WoW You shoulda heard what Andy did last week) , over an email, either paraphrased or quoted from a log.
This is the second time in a few short weeks that has come up. I think people should just remember that the pub is not private.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Zennie 0]

I totally understand where you're coming from. I think what is said in the chat room should stay between us. But a couple things to consider....
First, you don't need to be an op to record a log of a chat. Any chat software, such as MIRC, has a logging capability. So anyone with such software could have recorded the transcript. So it wasn't necessarily a channel op, just anyone who was there the whole time.... and no it wasn't me.
Now as far as distribution goes, I could totally see a scenario where someone couldn't make it to the chat, but wanted to read what went on and asked for a copy of the logs.
I started thinking of a party analogy... what if someone couldn't make it to a party and asked a friend who was there to tell him what went on. I think all of us would agree that that would be no big deal. So if we view the chat logs that way, I don't think it would concern us.
But then I got to thinking, are the logs really like that? Or are they more like someone hiding a camera at a party and playing the tape for people that weren't there? In that instance I can see why people would be *very* upset. They were being recorded surrepticiously... and I can see that as a definite violation of trust.
I guess since I know chats can be logged, I'm not terribly concerned if it was just somebody sending a room regular a log so they could see what happened. Anything beyond that and I think you run the risk of these things getting all over the internet. And I don't think that's a very Good Thing (tm).
Just a few random thoughts.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[OmriMon 0]

yea i think u r wrong lisa, again the pub is a public place and if u didn't want to say something that u didn't want people to hear u shouldnt've said it in a PBULIC room
yea i sent the log to someone, so if he did something with it don't come and blame it on me.
i keep logs of happy hour to c wut i miss after i have to leave since i can't b online when happy hour is on.
btw it's only that ops (me & slappie) can save logs, it whoever that is using an IRC client rather than the java based applet.
"The longer you freefly - The longer your beard is"

[PhreeZone 15]

I hate to be so blunt about this but oh well... it seems that the people on here that are geeks or been around on IRC/BBS's for a while realize that nothing is truely private online. There is always some record of what is said/done/typed/sent. Those that are newer to the IRC thing have'nt been through the entire transcript of what you thought was a semi-private conversation poping back up a few weeks later on another bbs/irc room. Yeah it totally sucks when it does, but it all passes in the end. Sometimes the cost is embaressment, others its a sense of security is lost. While I was logging parts of happy hour I had a reason to and I actually had a glitch in my config so I missed all the good stuff in my log
I've came to accept that anything I say can and will be used again later online so I'm not happy with it.... but if its going to happen, I might as well be shown as having a good time while it was happening... I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[AggieDave 6]

Yeah, I learned at a very young age that nothing said on BBSes, Usenet, IRC, etc was said in private and that most people actually logged their IRC conversations (back when IRC wasn't totally over run by porn freaks and script kiddies). So I don't say anything that I can't deal with seeing again from another source and move on with life.
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[sangiro 4]

Quote

yea i sent the log to someone, so if he did something with it don't come and blame it on me.

That sounds like you're trying to wash your hands and blame someone else.... if that's the attitude of the admin I will consider disassociating Dropzone.com with that chat.
I agree nothing is private in a chat room but I disagree with an attitude of "yeah, I did it, so what" from an admin when people express concerns. I believe the best response would have been. "My apologies if I caused anyone any embarrassment or discomfort. We'll try to be more discreet (at least as admins who are placed in a certain position of power) in the future."
I believe that was the spirit of Slappies response last time....
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[OmriMon 0]

for one wut does this whole thing has to do with my being an op in slappies room, theres not difference between me or anyone else in the room...
if anyone got offened by it, i'm sorry, but u could've came to me personally and explain to me...
peace
"The longer you freefly - The longer your beard is"

[Skyrose7 0]

I think this would be ok if it wasn't so behind everyone's back. If it is going to be related to the party scene, "oh, you'll never guess what happened..." that is cool if it is done in a light-hearted manner or you tease someone to their face. What is not cool is talking about people behind their backs. If that is going on, well, that just sucks.
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.

[skybytch 259]

For the record, I'm not embarrassed at all about what I said in the chat; it was certainly no worse than things I've said or done in public offline in the past. I'm drinking when I'm chatting; I get raunchy when I get drunk.. that's just how I am.. Anyone who's been around me when I'm drinking already knows that anyway.
My point is that we as a community here on dropzone.com are, or at least should be (imho of course), different than those who frequent other chat rooms, BBS', etc. Perhaps it's a Pollyanna attitude, but I trusted that as a community we all have at least some respect for each other and would not lower ourselves to high school type antics - such as posting or emailing chat logs for others amusement.
Did I just learn a lesson? I sure did. I will now assume that "our" chat room is no different than any other; I'll also now assume that I can't trust anybody, even here, in a community that I thought was different. That's kinda sad imho.
pull and flare,
lisa

[rhino 0]

Skybitch,
No reason to be embarrassed. Fuck anyone that doesn't agree with what we talk about or what we do.. Especially if they aren't one of us. I for one appreciate it when a woman knows how to express herself
Maybe our chatroom should be password protected? Be who you are.. I'll be who I am and to hell with those that break the faith and don't recognize and learn from breaking it.
Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[OmriMon 0]

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such as posting or emailing chat logs for others amusement.

i think u r seeing it in a different way than i c it.
like i said, i save em to c wut i missed.
i sent it to whoever asked prolly cuz he wanted to c wut he missed, not to laugh at u or anything.
i am truly sorry if u thought i would do it just for the kicks...
"The longer you freefly - The longer your beard is"

[scottbre 0]

Well, since I was in the Happy hour chat room this wednesday and was part of the festivities, hear's my say on the topic:
If you think that anything you say online is private, then you are being naive. The best that you can hope for is varying degrees of privacy. For example e-mail is more private that chatrooms, which are more private that public websites. But none of these things are completely private.
Secondly, I don't see anything wrong with the distribution of the chat room transcripts to others in the DZ.com community. It would be polite to get the "OK" of the people who may have said some colorful stuff in the transcript before hand, but this isn't always logistically possible. However, if you really want to know what goes/has gone on in the chatroom, be there.
Finally, if you actually go to the chatroom or get transcripts of it from someone for later perusal, you need to understand that even though some of the people who participate in the chatroom do actually know each other, it is still an atmosphere of fantasy. All chatrooms are like that, regardless. And as an amosphere of make-believe, it should be treated as such. By this I mean that you can participate, "watch", or read later on, what goes on, but you should do so with the understanding that it is just people in a chatroom having fun and trading opinions, advice, rumors, and little bit of fiction thrown in for flavor.
Bottom line, don't say things in a chatroom that you might regret later, and don't make what is said a bigger deal than it really is. "Vindictiveness aside, the matchbook was a decent doubles partner. . ."

[Slappie 9]

Ok guys I didn't know this was going on and that Omri was involved. I do not want to lose the chat being directed to my channel. I put the channel up just for this use. I thought we were over with the log problems. I promised I would never use then nor post them on the web for others to see.

Quote

Granted, we should all know that what we say in an IRC chat room is recorded on a log that all of the sysops (those with an @ in front of their names) have access to.

It has been said once or twice in this thread about it's not only the @-Ops that can log the conversations. It's anyone using a chat client other then the "Java Applet" that links from the website.
Happy Hour is something we all enjoy and it brings all of us closer as people, skydivers and friends From this point forward... If your going to log the chat, that's not a problem. If someone asks for a copy.. if they missed it and want to see it.. I'm sorry people please no more of this.. It's like a party if you missed it it's OVER! Try and attend next week.. Please refrain from spreading the logs.. I'm really sorry to those that have felt that their trust was taken for granted. So please don't let this stop a Wed Tradition!! I'll be there My New Website with 24hr Chat

[sangiro 4]

Slappie - you've done a great job with the chat. Safe swoops
Sangiro

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

OK, here's my perspective: yes it's not really "secret", but at the same time it is more of what we would actually say if we were standing around the fire at the DZ WAY after the sun went down. That being said, if you were not there for it, then tough luck. Ask someone in private later, "hey, what did I miss". At that point, someone might give you a brief synopsis of what went on; certainly not a transcript. The bottom line here, is that I don't want anyone recording my conversations, no matter HOW public they might be. If I can't trust that what is said in near real-time will remain so, then I will stop participating in Happy Hour. Like Lisa said, I am not "ashamed" of anything I might say while the room is open, but I don't need any of it being repeated to anyone after the fact. If you were not there, then it's none of your damn business.
Either way, tell me how it is going to be so I can make a fairly important decision. If I cannot be candid with the people I am talking to, then it's not worth my time to be there. If I say something about a person and he or she is not in the room, I intend it to be kept among those people who were actually there at the time.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

For me, this is an issue of trust - trust that what happens in the chat room will stay in the chat room

This is idealistic. Personally, I would never betray the people I "jabber" with in the chat room, but in the real world, anything you post anywhere on this internet is "out there", and if you put it out there, then it may come back to haunt you...
User beware!
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[freaksister 0]

Sangiro, Slappie and Chuck said it quite gracefully. I feel the same way Lisa does, I get raunchy when I get drunk too. Hell I am raunchy when I'm SOBER! hehe
But, I miss the chat room more than I make it in there, and I just say, Oh well....maybe next week. I was there the first night it was on, and I have been there enough times to know what goes on there, so I don't feel left out if I miss a week or whatever. Anyway, I will try to make it in this Wednesday and I'll be as crazy as I ever was...might as well.
Ciao,
Sis
Can you Trip like I do?

[rhino 0]

raunchy is good!! lol
Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[Jumperpaula 0]

Quote

I don't want anyone recording my conversations, no matter HOW public they might be. If I can't trust that what is said in near real-time will remain so, then I will stop participating in Happy Hour

This is my view exactly!
Fly Your Slot !

[AggieDave 6]

Kinda like the Nixon administration, huh?
I'm willing to bet that now people have voiced their opinions, that this sort of stuff won't happen again. Hopefully, since I really enjoy everyone being around for Happy Hour.
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[skyhawk 2]

um how can someone read a transcipt i cant even follow the chat when its happening let along bloody read the thing later t would take hours to read and most of it is crap.
if you want to get into conparisions how bout a nudie run there is a hell of a difference between telling someone that person a did it and showing someone person a doing it. If person a is fine with you taping it thats fine.
im sure everyone knows that the internet isnt private from what i can read bytch is angry becuase she thought it was semi private. sure it was typed in a public domain but people can regret things the typed later on.
i dunno mayby she would be happy if all partys deleted there scripts from it
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[wildblue 4]

no kidding... and who has that kinda time? You'd have to be pretty bored to go through a couple hours of chat logs for giggles.
I don't suffer from insanity - I enjoy every minute of it

[wingnut 0]

hmmm, my opinion.......well i don't really care one way or another.......thing is like many before me have said it is a chat room and not real life... as long as people relise that then i'm okay with it being reread.....as for who would have the time to read it i'm not sure i would want it read by someone who has the time to read it....(unless they are unemployed/homebound) and just plain bored ota thier mind......

"i may not go to heven, i hope you go to hell"-C.C.