Fair and Balanced

[aeromobile 0]

I never understood Franken's humor. I remember as a kid seeing him on TV as a stand up act. At first, I thought, oh boy a comic, then I realized he wasn't funny at all. After that, I turned the television to another channel whenever he was on. Also, I know he was a writer for several television shows. Didn't he write for SNL during their off years?. I couldn't imaging buying his book.

[quade 3]

Quote

...he makes alot more money than I do. He has to be doing something right.

Yeah?

The crack dealer down the street probably makes more money than I do too, but I don't admire him in any way.

The ability of a person to generate cash doesn't mean that what he's doing is "right".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

point taken.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[GeorgiaDon 340]

"The teachers at the universities do have a 'leaning', the students are getting that every day. Read the news. Also, I've been to school and know it first hand, and hear it in the news and from current students at college."

Well, as a teacher at a university I don't try to instill a leftist leaning. Since I teach biology courses that wouldn't really be appropriate. What I do try to teach is a way of critically evaluating information. You can think of it as a series of questions:
What is the objective evidence for this "fact" (i.e. what experiments were done)? Are there alternative ways of accounting for these experimental results? What are the limits to my understanding of this system? How does this "fact" (or hypothesis) relate to other facts or hypotheses that I currently believe? What are the logical predictions that follow from this hypothesis?
In dealing with graduate students working on research projects, I emphasize how they have to generate a hypothesis to explain their experimental results, then try their very best to design and carry out more experiments to try to shoot down their own ideas. Always be rigorously self-critical about what you know and what you only think you know.
Now, all of that is taught in the context of science, but inevitably it spills over into other aspects of belief and "life" in general. Why do I believe the things I do? Is it because my parents, my friends, my minister, or my president told me that that is what I should believe? Is it because the punishment for not believing is social ostracism, or a permanent vacation in the lake of fire? Or is it because this particular belief is the best available explanation at this time for a particular set of facts? The outcome of this way of thinking is that "tradition" loses force as a reason to believe certain things. Similarly one becomes less inclined to assume that parents, religious leaders, and government figures always know best. Also one becomes more comfortable with changing your mind as new information becomes available.

Come to think of it, I guess that does sound a lot like a "leftist" point of view.

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[PhillyKev 0]

Here's the best one of all:

The attorneys for Fox, owned by media baron Rupert Murdoch, argued that the First Amendment
gives broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves.

http://www.netfeed.com/~jhill/RupertMurdoch.htm

And no sensationalism here:

Fox News Solicits Expert Insights on D.C. Sniper from Berkowitz
Lending support to Michael Moore's thesis that our news-as-entertainment industry is feeding into the cycle of gun violence, Fox News has solicited the thoughts of convicted "Son of Sam" killer David Berkowitz on the D.C. sniper, and is running Berkowitz' analysis of the sniper's possible thinking and motivations. I wonder, seriously, how many TV producers are currently working on incorporating the serial-killer angle into a reality-show format.

[Zenister 0]

unfortunately, while the critical thought method is taught at most institutions of higher learning, the people it is taught to are not really interested in learning to think for themselves so much as having someone tell them the 'proper answers'.

In that environment their previously held beliefs and ideas are often shown to be derivative and insubstantial, and so instead of searching for their own answers they adopt the current 'social-political flavor of the month' without applying the same critical thought that led them to discard their original 'indoctrination'.

Its amazing the number of stupid college activist types who cant defend their new found cause any better than they could defend their previously 'fascist' ways...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Muenkel 0]

Interesting, Fox News Channel is consistently the #1 rated cable News Channel. Maybe that's because mainstream America has gotten sick of the constant one-sided bullshit shoved down their throats throughout the nineties. Or perhaps it's rated #1 because mainstream America can't possibly be as intelligent as the liberals.

I suggest the left really get their emergency plan together quickly. The 2004 election is just over 14 months away.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[TheAnvil 0]

Valiant effort Sir Bill, but all for naught. A few comments:

- O'Reilly is a news commentator. I've heard him bash Bush, his brother, his father, and even the great Reagan once or twice. Using your limited examples as proof of bias only works on those who aren't familiary with Bill O.

- All of the stuff you mentioned reported by news anchors came from sources in the field and were at least plausible. If you think a pesticide factory can't produce chemical weapons stop telling everyone you're an engineer cause you're sure as hell faking it.

- The war had bipartisan support. The focus of your post was Fox stories in support of the war, which was not a republican effort. What did El Jefe Clintonista say about the status of WMDs on the day he left office, by the way?

An example of POLITICAL bias would be calling a liberal justice a 'despicable person' and saying that the best thing his wife could do is feed him high cholesterol foods so he dies an early death(Malveaux's comments ring a bell?), call the head of a liberal organization a fucking idiot (Gumbell is such an unbiased fellow), or something of the sort. Please feed me some from FoxNews. I'm looking forward to hearing them. If you like I can find several from CNN/Rather/Jennings (Jennings in particular just loved the Sandinistas so).

Methinks ye'll have trouble finding such quotations......hehehehehehehehehehehehe

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

An example of POLITICAL bias would be ....

Yes, that would be an example. But the fact is that overall Fox has a strong right slant to it. No one here is claiming that the other news stations aren't slanted left. What we're saying is that Fox is NOT fair and balanced. It's just as skewed as all the other corporate media conglomerates. They just happened to be owned by Murdoch, a die hard right winger, instead of Turner, a die hard left winger.

You claimed Fox was fair and balanced, it's not. You claimed O'Reilly is fair, then when it's shown he's not, you dismiss him as a "commentator". Well, if Fox is going to pack their station with right slanted commentators, I don't see that as balanced.

Really...how can you read what I posted above "The attorneys for Fox, owned by media baron Rupert Murdoch, argued that the First Amendment
gives broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves. " and defend that station?

[wmw999 2,146]

Quote

whole doggone post

I think I'm in love

How you doin' ?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

Re-read my posts. I said Fox news has a slight right slant to it. I admit it. Happily. I hold and continue to hold that Fox has a slight tilt while the other networks are at a 30 degree tilt to the left.

Calling O'Reilly biased to the right when I've heard him bash the Republican party, Bush, Bush's father, Jeb Bush, Newt Gingrich, and many other Republicans holds about as much water with me as calling me a racist because I don't support affirmative action (that's zero for you Gore supporters out there). He IS a commentator and not a news anchor.

IF Fox were strongly biased to the right (as compared to a slight bias, which I admit in my previous post), examples such as those I've asked for would be spewing my way. They're not, so I assume my hypothesis to be correct until they do.

My own theory about FoxNews and the internet is this: for years the lefties have had a firm grasp on the media for the most part. With the advent of the internet and FoxNews, this has come to a screeching halt, driving them insane. That easy access to information and a major network slightly tilted to the right gives a large chunk of folks whom I refer to as 'educated swing voters' EASY access to information concerning the major political issues. This info doesn't really support the arguments of the left, so the large group of swing voters doesn't vote for them. Hence the trouble they've been having in recent elections.

Muenkel said it - '04 is coming up soon. And while I'm REALLY ticked off at Bush, nobody the left is running is worth voting for. If I get more ticked off, I'll vote with my heart for the Libertarian candidate.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,426]

>Fox News Channel is consistently the #1 rated cable News Channel.

And Howard Stern was the #1 rated DJ for a long time. Figure that means that he's more accurate, or more insightful, or more intelligent than any other DJ? Or is he just more entertaining?

FOX news is no doubt great entertainment. And you should feel free to stick with the most popular news show/TV show/DJ out there. I never have, but that's just me. Heck, I read BBC news; that must _really_ suck since it's not popular at all.

>Or perhaps it's rated #1 because mainstream America can't
>possibly be as intelligent as the liberals.

I know a lot of dumb liberals. But then again the average IQ in the US is, by definition, 100.

[billvon 2,426]

>If you think a pesticide factory can't produce chemical weapons stop
> telling everyone you're an engineer cause you're sure as hell faking it.

And if you think a pesticide plant is synonymous with a chemical weapons factory, and can be reported as such without inaccuracy - I hear the Iraqis need a new Minister of Information.

In any case, my job (alas!) is in the real world, and thus my fitness as an engineer is determined by whether or not my stuff works, not whether or not a given news station is popular or correct. I know, it's annoying that you can't put a spin on stuff like that, but I sorta like it that way.

>Valiant effort Sir Bill, but all for naught.

Ah, if only life were like a Austin Powers movie.

Anvil: Show me an example of FOX bias!

BV: Here's stuff by O'Reilly.

Anvil: Ah, but he's not REALLY part of FOX news.

BV: Here's an O'Reilly quote on FOX news.

Anvil: But it's just his opinion, not that of FOX news.

BV: Here's a copy of a book by O'Reilly: "My Opinion Represents FOX News."

Anvil: But FOX News doesn't believe that.

BV: Here's a book by KUSI/FOX news director Richard Longoria - "Everything O'Reilly Says Is True."

Anvil: But he's just one small part of FOX.

BV: Here's a memo from Rupert Murdock - "All My Companies Represent My Right Wing Bias."

Anvil: But that doesn't mean they _have_ to follow his bias.

So I give up. I've presented a good many examples of a persistent right wing bias, including a lawsuit intended to suppress a left-wingers book. Quade has presented a bunch more. At this point I have no doubt of your ability to claim they are all irrelevant so I won't post any more. Fortunately, we can all choose where we get our news, and I have no doubt that people will continue to believe whatever they choose no matter what FOX says or does anyway.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

My own theory about FoxNews and the internet is this: for years the lefties have had a firm grasp on the media for the most part. With the advent of the internet and FoxNews, this has come to a screeching halt, driving them insane. That easy access to information and a major network slightly tilted to the right gives a large chunk of folks whom I refer to as 'educated swing voters' EASY access to information concerning the major political issues. This info doesn't really support the arguments of the left, so the large group of swing voters doesn't vote for them. Hence the trouble they've been having in recent elections.

I've got my own theory. Conservatives DOMINATE talk radio. Conservatives in the late 80's moved in to talk radio, an inexpensive and interactive way of getting a point across, and began making leaps. Conservatives couldn't get onto television (this is before big cable) because of the left-leaning bias. This was in the day when Larry King ruled the radio airwaves. In fairness, Alan Berg did, too, until the far right fascists killed him in '84.

Talk radio's daytime market? Working stiffs. Joe 6-pack can't watch television during the day or take the time to read the newspapers or other mass media. But he could get am radio.

The left have yet to make any substantial inroads in this, despite their efforts. Thus, if a lefty channel were to come in and form, "International Peace, Love and Understanding Radio" then they could probably fairly state that they were providing a balance to the right wing influence in talk radio. And they'd be correct, right up to when they go out of business.

Conservatives dominate talk radio. This is the thorn in the liberal side. The working stiffs can listen more to the radio during the day than CNN or MSNBC or CNBC. And, as the figures show, they just aren't as interested in listening to Peter Jennigns or Dan Rather, anymore.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

That's not leftist, nor is it right. The far left and far right views are both very religious ("believe it because I say so"). What you are talking about is using fact and discovery to draw data-based conclusions. Both sides would hate you for this because you are questioning big brother. That's where I am so we are in agreement here. Good for you for not using your biology forum as a platform for pushing any agenda other than biology.

it's funny though that I state fact based positions are important and emotional response are a poor choice and responders just assume I'm far right republican. (actually, I'm atheist, fiscally conservative and socially think problems should be dealt with locally. That is neither palatable to either party) It's more likely libertarian in concept, but those candidates are completely wacko so I don't have a home there either.

I believe you pick issues important to you (NOT JUST ONE). Find out which candidate agrees with you best and vote for them if you think they'll do what they say (trustable). Regardless of which party. I like facts and little spin. my opinion on this topic is Fox presents facts and both sides better than the other 'stations'. For recent voting, both sides are ridiculous lately, but I find that republicans (in general) are less afraid to give facts, where the dems are most likely to go nuts if you question them.

Talk radio is stricly entertainment, not news, so that message is diluted.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TheAnvil 0]

Now that is funny as hell. I am truly chuckling.

I'll look forward to reading those books. Send them to Hollister DZ and I'll pick them up there.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Oooooh......I like that. Interesting and damned accurate.

Liberals do hate talk radio as a general rule of thumb. I've heard about them starting their own radio network - LMFAO.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

OK. I'm done laughing. I'm still smiling, but that's normal. Hehehehehehe.

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So I give up. I've presented a good many examples of a persistent right wing bias, including a lawsuit intended to suppress a left-wingers book.

The lawsuit was over the title. The lawsuit was stupid. Bar Rule #11 should have applied.

Quote

Quade has presented a bunch more. At this point I have no doubt of your ability to claim they are all irrelevant so I won't post any more. Fortunately, we can all choose where we get our news, and I have no doubt that people will continue to believe whatever they choose no matter what FOX says or does anyway.

Perhaps you missed my point. I WATCH Fox & CNN. Telling those of us who watch FoxNews that a commentator is biased towards the right when we have with our own ears HEARD said commentator bash the Bush administration and other prominent Republicans might be an interesting past-time, but is a fruitless one if your goal is to convince us of the veracity of your words. Yes, said commentator has bashed lefties with apparent glee, but when he bashes conservatives with equal furor upon what basis do you derive your conclusion that he is a right winger? I do not see the rationale and wonder how you could.

I CAN see the venom and hatred spewed by many lefties (not yourself) at FoxNews and while I can appreciate their frustration, the fervor with which they deride the organization is both unwarranted and remniscient of the fervor of Nazi's against the Jews. Calling it Prahvda - which precipitated Anvil entry into the thread - is an example of such.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[n2skdvn 0]

[Energizer Thread Bunny] it keeps going... and going.....and going.......[/Energizer Thread Bunny]

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[wmw999 2,146]

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Telling those of us who watch FoxNews that a commentator is biased towards the right when we have with our own ears HEARD said commentator bash the Bush administration and other prominent Republicans

Are you implying with this that people who can be considered liberal or conservative cannot disagree, and bash each other?

Then as far as I can tell, there are not "lefties" or conservatives. Because no two of any ilk agree down the line.

Also -- why the pejorative "lefty?" Just to piss off and put down?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikkey 0]

You Yanks are so funny....I'm "blessed" with cable and watch Fox News for laughs now and then in the evening when the morning show "Fox and Friends" is on. - "fair and balanced" my ass I am actually a conservative and I can't get over what a biased and sophisticated propaganda machine Fox is.
I find it extremely funny that they have the audacity to call themselves "fair and balanced". Fox is blatantly politically "tuned" not just to the GOP but the right wing of the GOP. I can not stop smiling reading some of the "defense" by some the posters.
("I am sure they have bashed Bush..etc." - probably for not being right wing enough )

Journalism is not just WHAT you say, but also HOW you say it. It is about WHICH news you report, WHO you invite to present a view (good trick is use a smart, good looking person to be the proponent of one view and somebody useless for the other - whoopy you are "fair and balanced"). It is about which mix of news you present. Which view do you get if all contributors for news on Iraq are ex-military and never somebody from the middle-east (except the Israeli ambassador ).
Which small "words/phrases" do you use to introduce news (the morning crew is good at that) in order to set up the "agenda" (love this simple "bad guys" vs. "good guys", i.e. make complex things appear "simple"). But most of all it is which news you report and which you are not and how much time you give it.

It is the mix of these that represent "bias" and Fox is the most blatant of them all. Here in Australia we have a large public broadcaster (similar to the BBC in the UK). They have a left bias and I am very critical of them but nobody beats Fox - (irony on) good old J. Goebbels would be proud of them (irony off).

IMO it is probably impossible to be to be totally impartial / objective when it comes to news. But the Murdoch empire is not even trying - they have an agenda and they are not honest about it.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[wmw999 2,146]

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Journalism is not just WHAT you say, but also HOW you say it.

Oh goodness -- haven't you heard? Your opinion doesn't count -- you're not in the US

Honestapete -- here you go, you're nice and let someone be your ally, and all of a sudden they think their opinion matters!

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Quote

Journalism is not just WHAT you say, but also HOW you say it.

Oh goodness -- haven't you heard? Your opinion doesn't count -- you're not in the US

Honestapete -- here you go, you're nice and let someone be your ally, and all of a sudden they think their opinion matters!

------------------------------------------------------------

Yes it does, because you export your damn media to other countries ooops, Rupert is actually Australian.
Honestly, US policies have great effect on other countries - and policies are influenced by media. So, excuse me, but I think we are entitled to an opinion as long as you guys try to run the World....

I assume you were just making fun, but there is a trend in the US (yes especially at FOX) to ignore the opinion of people outside the US. And it will be at your own peril. The US was told that Iraq was a complex problem and would be a huge challenge post Saddam - the US ignored and now is in trouble. The US "pissed" on the Europeans and the UN and now wants their help.... hmmmm, lets see.... The Israel/Palestine problem would be solved if just we would get rid of Saddam.... hmmmmmm....

For a non-US person the Clinton administration was much better for one reason - Clinton was actually listening to his allies and understood that the world is complex and not a Wild West movie where the good guys have a white hat on and the bad ones a black hat - and the happy ending was when the guys with the black hat were dead. Ooops guys with black hats are actually not dead yet.

My favorite US show is Jay Leno. He does these Street Talk segments. It really shows how little knowledge people have of the world. And Fox is where they get their news....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

• Quote

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

He does these Street Talk segments. It really shows how little knowledge people have of the world.

He stole that bit from Howard Stern

[jfields 0]

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I assume you were just making fun, but there is a trend in the US (yes especially at FOX) to ignore the opinion of people outside the US.

The trend in the US government right now is not to ignore people outside the US. That is silly. The trend is to use them as bombing targets.

I'm so glad we are long past the "End of major fighting". What a relief. I'm sure our esteemed president will make sure it marks the end of major casualties as well.

Some of our media outlets are pretty whacked out. Despite my disagreement with many of them, I think the range of opinions in the media is a great thing. We aren't limited to hearing a single party line. People can choose to get the news that reinforces their views and strokes their egos, or they can pay attention to a variety of sources and actually learn.

Mikkey, some of us folks that live in the US are pretty apalled at our country's recent actions. All we can ask of foriegners is not to hold it against all of us.