SRI85 0 #1 December 30, 2010 What is the best way to figure out the ideal band set up on your deployment bag? I know every rig is different when it comes to the bag, canopy, and line size. There is a recommended amount of force required to release the stows, correct? what is the recommended force, and what would be a good way to test this to ensure its the proper strength? Based on what i have learned about stowless deployment bags, my main concern is finding the right strenth at the locking stows. I currently double wrap my 4 locking stows (large bands), and single wrap my other 6 stows (small bands). Basically i just want a way to test which bands will give me the closest to ideal tension. I think my current set up requires to much force (at the locking stows) to open.(bag locks are not a concern) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #2 December 30, 2010 Don't double-wrap any stows. Just get smaller bands, or use another type if you need to (f.i. you could use small tubestoes for the 2 locking stows). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #3 December 30, 2010 Here's some info from PD related to what you are asking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsca5add8gYou don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #4 December 30, 2010 I have tube stoes for my main loops (x3) and small rubber bands for the rest. I only single wrap. doubles net only 2 jumps on the rubber bands due to breaking, and is very hard to get around my lines.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #5 December 30, 2010 QuoteDon't double-wrap any stows. Just get smaller bands, or use another type if you need to (f.i. you could use small tubestoes for the 2 locking stows). Depends on what you have. Small stows don't hold tight enough so I have to double wrap large bands. Have been since 98 and so far so good DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SRI85 0 #6 December 30, 2010 yea, but how can i measure how much force is required to release the stow? im gonna try using the small bands and tube stows, but i want to be able to test the force so i know which one is most ideal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #7 December 30, 2010 I dont know any "official" way, but this should work: * put enough weight on your rig so it doesn't slide when pulling on the D-bag * stretch out your lines * attach a spring scale to the bridle attach point somewhere close to the bag * with lines stowed in your method of choice, pull bag in direction opposite of rig, monitoring the forces required until release * repeat as neccessary.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #8 December 31, 2010 Pd was just talking about this at skydive sebastian. They said use large rubber bands and double rap all stows. I've been doing this for years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #9 December 31, 2010 QuotePd was just talking about this at skydive sebastian. What company representative was saying that? Did this person explain why this was a good idea? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #10 December 31, 2010 John LeBlanc gave us an impromptu packing lesson during a weather hold at this year's Nationals. He recommended double stowing everything, even through the grommets. I think he also recommended always using large bands but don't quote me on that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #11 December 31, 2010 QuoteI have tube stoes for my main loops (x3) and small rubber bands for the rest. I only single wrap. doubles net only 2 jumps on the rubber bands due to breaking, and is very hard to get around my lines. I heard it is a bad idea to mix tube stoes and bandsMoriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jim_32766 0 #12 January 1, 2011 The packing videos on YouTube made by Nick Grillet from PD show using long bands and making double wraps. The AFFI that taught me to pack said the same thing. I follow their advice. However, as you can see from the answers thus far there are several approaches taken that apparently have good success.The meaning of life . . . is to make life have meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 January 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteI have tube stoes for my main loops (x3) and small rubber bands for the rest. I only single wrap. doubles net only 2 jumps on the rubber bands due to breaking, and is very hard to get around my lines. I heard it is a bad idea to mix tube stoes and bands Who did you hear this from? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demoknite 0 #14 January 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteI have tube stoes for my main loops (x3) and small rubber bands for the rest. I only single wrap. doubles net only 2 jumps on the rubber bands due to breaking, and is very hard to get around my lines. I heard it is a bad idea to mix tube stoes and bands I do exactly the same thing. Tube stows to close the back and small bands for the rest of the stows. I never ever double wrap. I have never had a problem with that set up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #15 January 1, 2011 Double-wrapping Tube Stows is a bad idea, because they are bulky enough to jam a grommet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #16 January 1, 2011 I suspect that the warning not to mix Tube Stows and rubber bands came from the manufacturers of Tube Stows, because they did not want to get dragged into a law suit started by a huge mis-match of (non-MIL SPEC) rubber bands and their product. The tremendous variations in (non MIL SPEC) rubber bands would boggle your mind! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #17 January 3, 2011 I started doing that on my canopies after a friend told me that. He was having hard openings on his Velocities and PD told him to double stow and his problems went away. I switched to doing that on my rigs and my openings improved as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HALO1 0 #18 January 5, 2011 Just to clarify… Are we talking Locking Stows as well? Surprised to hear PD recommending doubling on everything since most of us have be taught to never double the locking stows? Hmmm… perhaps I’ll try this weekend with long bands and FINALLY solve the hard opening on the Neos. Don't be sexist… Broads hate that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SRI85 0 #19 January 5, 2011 I ended up putting just small bands in every spot. I think double stowing the locking stows with large bands created too much tension. I did some test depoyments on the ground and i think the single stows small bands provide the best result. (well for my set up anyways.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyfellows 0 #20 January 5, 2011 QuoteI suspect that the warning not to mix Tube Stows and rubber bands came from the manufacturers of Tube Stows, because they did not want to get dragged into a law suit started by a huge mis-match of (non-MIL SPEC) rubber bands and their product. The tremendous variations in (non MIL SPEC) rubber bands would boggle your mind! I would guess that is correct. There was a warning label on the tube stows that I purchased a year ago about mixing with rubber bands. I use a large rubber band on my center locking stow, because it's easier to get the first line stow in place ... And tube stows on the rest.Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #21 January 5, 2011 QuoteI started doing that on my canopies after a friend told me that. He was having hard openings on his Velocities and PD told him to double stow and his problems went away. I switched to doing that on my rigs and my openings improved as well. Very interesting. What canopy models of yours are you finding this on? Are these canopies known for opening hard? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #22 January 5, 2011 I don't do the locking stows (too scared) but PD recommends doing them all. Watch this video http://www.thepdblog.com/pdblog/2010/09/video-line-stow-myth.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #23 January 5, 2011 I have a large collection :-) Mostly older Triathlons and Sabres. None open particularly hard - but I feel a VERY noticeable difference in the initial snatch force when I double stow versus when I don't. The initial "jolt" is much more when single stowed. I have one Triathlon where the pilot chute is getting a bit old and I single stow that one - when I double stow I LITERALLY can feel each each rubber band unstowing. It rather creeped me out :-) I jumped a friends rig yesterday with a Pilot - his is single-stowed. I had a much more abrupt initial jolt than I'm used too, then a nice snivel. I seem to find it just slows down the snatch force, and the canopy design/pack job affects the rest of the opening. (On a different note - pilot chutes matter too. I have 23" pcs on some canopies and 27" or 28" on others.. One canopy was snapping me abruptly then sniveling - I didn't have a spare smaller pc to swap out, so I tied a knot in the kill line of the bigger pc. Basically it keeps the pc from inflating 100% - it still inflates plenty - but with slightly less snatch force which definitely helped out on my initial jolt.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #24 January 5, 2011 QuoteI don't do the locking stows (too scared) but PD recommends doing them all. Watch this video http://www.thepdblog.com/...-line-stow-myth.html After watching this video several times, I am thinking there is more to the double wrapping than what is being presented. If you look at the stows when they show the out of sequence deployment the line going to the side with the single stow is very tight but going back to the double stow side is looser. I believe you could simulate the exact same thing with a double or single wrap in this case. The other thing that I notice is that the stows are short on the single stow side. Not a lot but enough to be noticed visually. I think the type of deployment bag could have a factor in it as well. Bags with unbalanced stows tend to rock back and forth more when the lines are being released and can pull the lines and release them more easily in my opinion than a bag with balanced stows. This is mainly because balanced stow bags tend to have larger stows than unbalanced ones. Not sure if I explained that completely and I will try to explain better if need be. I personally never heard the myth that double stowing could create a baglock. Maybe I have been living under a rock or something. Whether you double stow or single stow, the breaking force of the rubber band between the stow and the bag is the same. It is only doubled around the line and not from the line back to the bag. So if the rubber band doesn't break because of whatever situation and doesn't release the stow, single or double stowing really has nothing to do with it. I am not saying that this doesn't have merit nor am not in anyway trying to discredit it. I would have liked to see the same presentation on a few variations of deployment bags and some of the other things mentioned above cleaned up. The video provides some generic information that I am not completely convinced should be used in every case. But these are just my thoughts and observations so take them as that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #25 January 5, 2011 QuoteI ended up putting just small bands in every spot. I think double stowing the locking stows with large bands created too much tension. I did some test depoyments on the ground and i think the single stows small bands provide the best result. (well for my set up anyways.) And how many tests do you think PD did before they put out that recommendation? Reliable results from testing involves much more than a few “table pulls” on the ground. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
