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treyman32003

Buying a rig, found one but not sure if I should get it...

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Hey everyone! I'm new to the website and just graduated my AFF at Deland. I found a rig that is for sale and is said to have only a dozen jumps on it and looks brand new, but the canopy and reserve were made in 02 and the container in 04. The canopy and res. are PD and the container is a Mirage G3. Just wondering if this would be a good starter rig and if I should be concerned with the age of it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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I think there are a lot of people out there with a great deal of experience that are jumping rigs much older than that and that have been used much more than 12 jumps. I'm certainly no expert but I don't think many people would question gear based on that age.
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Thanks, the gear manager and I talked extensively about it and it is a 170 main and the rig fits me almost perfectly. Just, I am new to skydiving and the gear and just wanted to get as much info as I could before I spent this kind of money on the rig. But they he said it would be a good rig. I am 5'8" and 165 and progressing pretty well with my canopy control.

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Standard Disclaimer:
Ask your instructors/riggers. Follow the advice of someone you know and trust, not a bunch of wierdos on the internet.

You seem to have done this, and seem to be double checking. Okay.

Unless the gear manager has a conflict of interest (is he going to make a lot of money on the sale?) I'd go with his advice. 5 years isn't old, as long as it was stored reasonably well. A good inspection will be able to determine that.
If he does have a conflict of interst, it doesen't mean it's a bad deal, you just would want to get a second opinion on it.

165# will translate to about 195-200 geared up. Under a 170 that puts you at about 1.2:1.

Maybe a bit overloaded, but that's between you and your instructors.

Don't worry too much about the cost. At 5 years, most of the depreciation is done. If you take good care of the rig, you should be able to sell it in a year or so for most of what you paid for it. (minus cypres age of course)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Some folks will say this canopy is ok for you.

However, USPA recommends wingloading maximum 1.0 for students AND A & B license holders (SIM 5-3,B,5).

USPA also considers A canopy of this size to be "advanced equipment" when loaded greater than 0.9 lb /sq ft (SIM 6-10,B,3)

remember wing loading is driven by EXIT wt, not body wt.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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Thanks, the gear manager and I talked extensively about it and it is a 170 main and the rig fits me almost perfectly. Just, I am new to skydiving and the gear and just wanted to get as much info as I could before I spent this kind of money on the rig. But they he said it would be a good rig. I am 5'8" and 165 and progressing pretty well with my canopy control.



What size reserve?
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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The below hyperlinks are to the Aerodyne and Performance Designs reserve recommendations:

http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/products/smartSelector.asp

http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=pr

I'm a bit "old school," but believe those who are in the student/novice and even up to the Intermediate range should not jump a reserve in which their total exit weight should not be greater than at least 1.0:1. One should also consider the reserve as their first choice in a purchase. A reserve is not a backup canopy, but your primary canopy.

Wingloading Calculator

While there are those that will tell you, that one can expect a reserve ride in "x" out of "y" jumps, there are those that have had 2 and even 3 reserve rides in one day. Conversely, there are those that have thousands of jumps with no reserve ride. However, no one will dispute that there is a reserve ride in someone's future. Old saying, "there's them that's had a reserve ride and them what's going to have a reserve ride." The reserve canopy is F-111 and a seven cell which makes for completely different flying and landing characteristics.

If you do a search on "Reserve Wingloading" you'll find several threads on the subject matter and one of the most important things I've heard that still rings true today... "If you think you can land even a perfect 1.2 to 1 7-cell canopy in someone's backyard surrounded by trees, you might choose that size reserve. That being said, I have never been under a sport reserve wishing it were smaller." ~Billvon, 2002

If one cannot land their main canopy in those conditions yet, then should one consider a reserve that is smaller than their main? IMO, There is no such thing as too large a reserve.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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It's a topic of debate, but the reserve is a little on the small size IMO. Imagine yourself unconcious under that canopy, no flare = OUCH! Can you get a larger reserve in it?


What difference a one size bigger reserve would make? Have you checked incident forums for unconscious landings? 168 is a decent reserve.

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It's a topic of debate, but the reserve is a little on the small size IMO. Imagine yourself unconcious under that canopy, no flare = OUCH! Can you get a larger reserve in it?


What difference a one size bigger reserve would make? Have you checked incident forums for unconscious landings? 168 is a decent reserve.



Not when you are pushing 200 fully geared up. Would you want to land a main loaded at 1.2 without any flare?

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Standard Disclaimer:
...165# will translate to about 195-200 geared up. Under a 170 that puts you at about 1.2:1.

Maybe a bit overloaded, but that's between you and your instructors....



thats putting that rig at 30-35lbs, i am just going to nitpick and say that its more like 20-25 which would put the WL at 1.05/1.11....which would be closer to the USPA recommendations....
IHYD

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Standard Disclaimer:
...165# will translate to about 195-200 geared up. Under a 170 that puts you at about 1.2:1.

Maybe a bit overloaded, but that's between you and your instructors....



thats putting that rig at 30-35lbs, i am just going to nitpick and say that its more like 20-25 which would put the WL at 1.05/1.11....which would be closer to the USPA recommendations....



Well, I go 155 stepping out of the shower.
Talon1, cypres, Tri190 PDR196, Protec, Altimaster, jumpsuit and street clothes (and shoes) puts me at 193. (goggles and Pro-track too, but they don't weigh enough to matter)

38# of gear with a rig that has a fairly big canopy and reserve. I was pretty surprised the first time I checked my weight with all my gear.

YMMV:)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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What difference a one size bigger reserve would make?



It can be the difference between a bruised ego and broken bones.

To the OP: I would recommend keeping the loading on both the main and reserve to below 1 lb. per sq. foot. The rig you are considering sounds just a little bit too small for your experience level. Remember, when you are purchasing gear you should consider not only the jumps on which things are going right, but also (and more heavily) the jumps on which everything is going wrong.

I'm not intending to imply anything about the "gear manager" at Skydive Deland, but, in general, if someone is trying to sell you a particular piece of used gear, take their recommendations (w/r/t suitability) with a grain of salt; seek advice from instructors and S&TA's to supplement such recommendations.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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I had a 190 main and 200 reserve, bigger than both of those, and I wasn't close to 35/38 lbs of gear. More like 25. With my 170 and same reserve, im 204 on the ground and 227 geared up completely.
"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

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It's a topic of debate, but the reserve is a little on the small size IMO. Imagine yourself unconcious under that canopy, no flare = OUCH! Can you get a larger reserve in it?


What difference a one size bigger reserve would make? Have you checked incident forums for unconscious landings? 168 is a decent reserve.



Not when you are pushing 200 fully geared up. Would you want to land a main loaded at 1.2 without any flare?


Show some statistics! How many percentage of the reserve rides are unconscious?

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It's a topic of debate, but the reserve is a little on the small size IMO. Imagine yourself unconcious under that canopy, no flare = OUCH! Can you get a larger reserve in it?


What difference a one size bigger reserve would make? Have you checked incident forums for unconscious landings? 168 is a decent reserve.



Not when you are pushing 200 fully geared up. Would you want to land a main loaded at 1.2 without any flare?


Show some statistics! How many percentage of the reserve rides are unconscious?




Do I care? Depends on if that's what you want to bet on. I personally watched several.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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It's a topic of debate, but the reserve is a little on the small size IMO. Imagine yourself unconcious under that canopy, no flare = OUCH! Can you get a larger reserve in it?


What difference a one size bigger reserve would make? Have you checked incident forums for unconscious landings? 168 is a decent reserve.



Not when you are pushing 200 fully geared up. Would you want to land a main loaded at 1.2 without any flare?


Show some statistics! How many percentage of the reserve rides are unconscious?



I've seen a few personally and heard of others in my few years in the sport. But hey, it's your life you're gambling with.

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Judging by your profile you jump at one of the biggest DZ's in the US. It seems to me like there will always be gear and deals floating around there. So why not spend time and money on rental gear and jumps in the mean time, get up to 50 or so jumps and then buy some gear?

That way you will have gone through the "student" and newer jumper size parachutes and be able to jump something in the range that you're talking about?

I also feel that by this number of jumps you'll be able to make an informed decision as to whether you're gonna stick around. I have seen so many people finish AFF courses and then life sometimes just gets in the way and they never come back to jumping. This way you won't have laid out thousands of dollars on gear. Just a thought. Of course if money is no object and you can afford to lay out on gear and do the jumps, my argument is null and void. :D

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I had a 190 main and 200 reserve, bigger than both of those, and I wasn't close to 35/38 lbs of gear. More like 25. With my 170 and same reserve, im 204 on the ground and 227 geared up completely.



It just depends on gear. Im 180, with w/o gear, and 218 with all gear. Thats with sab2 150 and pd160.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Judging by your profile you jump at one of the biggest DZ's in the US. It seems to me like there will always be gear and deals floating around there. So why not spend time and money on rental gear and jumps in the mean time, get up to 50 or so jumps and then buy some gear?

That way you will have gone through the "student" and newer jumper size parachutes and be able to jump something in the range that you're talking about?

I also feel that by this number of jumps you'll be able to make an informed decision as to whether you're gonna stick around. I have seen so many people finish AFF courses and then life sometimes just gets in the way and they never come back to jumping. This way you won't have laid out thousands of dollars on gear. Just a thought. Of course if money is no object and you can afford to lay out on gear and do the jumps, my argument is null and void. :D



I disagree with this advice. Why pay for gear that YOU will never own? Thats all renting really is. Even if you buy big starting out (say a 210 or similar) you can still sell it for almost what you paid for it providing you take care of it. Owning gear is like having a bargianing chip when it comes time to downsize and get smaller gear. Basically you can put a HUGE chunk of $$ towards your new gear by selling your old if not pay for it completely. I reccomend looking to buy gear AS SOON AS you get your license. Theres always people out there buying and selling begginner size gear.
Muff #5048

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Judging by your profile you jump at one of the biggest DZ's in the US. It seems to me like there will always be gear and deals floating around there. So why not spend time and money on rental gear and jumps in the mean time, get up to 50 or so jumps and then buy some gear?

That way you will have gone through the "student" and newer jumper size parachutes and be able to jump something in the range that you're talking about?

I also feel that by this number of jumps you'll be able to make an informed decision as to whether you're gonna stick around. I have seen so many people finish AFF courses and then life sometimes just gets in the way and they never come back to jumping. This way you won't have laid out thousands of dollars on gear. Just a thought. Of course if money is no object and you can afford to lay out on gear and do the jumps, my argument is null and void. :D



I disagree with this advice. Why pay for gear that YOU will never own? Thats all renting really is. Even if you buy big starting out (say a 210 or similar) you can still sell it for almost what you paid for it providing you take care of it. Owning gear is like having a bargianing chip when it comes time to downsize and get smaller gear. Basically you can put a HUGE chunk of $$ towards your new gear by selling your old if not pay for it completely. I reccomend looking to buy gear AS SOON AS you get your license. Theres always people out there buying and selling begginner size gear.



I have to politely disagree. In my experience I think it's better to rent and downsize for a few jumps. If money was no object 50-100 jumps would be nice, but I know that is a huge chunk of change to just "throw away on gear rental." I really admire crosskeys for having that rent to own program. I don't know if they still have it but they had it when I was a student there some years ago. It gives you a chance to go through the motions and downsize properly. I wish more dropzones and gear shops could do this. Check at Deland... maybe they have something similar.

There are more reasons to not buy gear off of student status than just the downsizing factor. You honestly don't know gear that well right now. Take some time and rent/jump a few containers and a few mains and find out what you like. Ask other fellow jumpers around the bondfire what they like and why. Take some time to get to know the selection before making the selection. It's a huge purchase so you might as well invest some time and research and find what is perfect for you, right?

If hell bent on getting gear just off of AFF then I would say go with a bigger container that is able to take a canopy size or two lower than what you first put in it. There's no worries keeping a big reserve. IMO a reserve is never too big, but if you want to grab something that first fits a 190 and then can later put a 170 in it, that might be a better option. Just my two cents. :)
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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