Would you be comfortable with this?

[virulindex 0]

Let me just preface this by saying I plan on doing whatever it is my instructor tells me but I find myself being a little nervous...

I just passed my level 4 AFF this past weekend and one of my instructors and I started talking about canopy size. I've had the same two instructors on levels 1-3 but on 4 I got one new instructor. I've been jumping a 260 and am fairly comfortable with it but my new instructor says he wants to drop me down to a 190 for level 5. I weigh 180 so I figure my exit weight is no less than 200 and a 190 seems like a pretty quick and substantial downsize.

I'm sure this person would not steer me wrong or have me do anything that would get me into trouble but I guess I'm just a little scared.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[shermanator 3]

If your not comfortable, then don't do it. Has the instructor that wants to downsize seen you land on any of your previous 4 jumps? Talk to him/her about whey they feel you are ready to downsize to the 190. If it makes you feel more comfortable, talk to the instructors that took you up , on the previous jumps as well. Good luck.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[skybytch 259]

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Anyone have any thoughts on this?

That's a big downsize at four jumps.

You would be increasing the level of risk you are taking by flying that canopy right now. The increase in risk is small if conditions are good; it's when things go wrong that the increase in risk gets bigger. You could probably land it just fine, but imho at your experience level you're better off flying something that you can land just fine with a poorly timed flare or downwind by mistake or even in a slight turn.

I think you're smart to question this. I'd ask the instructor why he thinks you should be on that size canopy this early, and then make your decision. Because it is ultimately your decision how much risk you are willing to take.

[airtwardo 6]

I'm just a little scared.

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Then don't do it.

If you are not 100% comfortable with that transition then you need more time, training and experience.

I too think it's a pretty big decrease in canopy size for your level.

Remember, YOU are the final authority on saving your body!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Halfpastniner 0]

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I weigh 180 so I figure my exit weight is no less than 200 and a 190 seems like a pretty quick and substantial downsize.

Thats because It is. That would put you over a 1:1 wingloading at 4 jumps. Are you sure your instructor wasn't joking around with you??

BASE 1384

[virulindex 0]

I'm doing level 5 this saturday so when I'm there I'll be sure to really go over this with him but I did not get the feeling he was being anything but serious.

And yeah, if my exit weight is 200 even that puts me at a 1.05 lbs per sq ft and doing that calculation was what really got me wondering in the first place.

[tombuch 0]

That's a 26% drop in size in just one jump, when you have just four jumps, which seems steep, plus the wing loading is high for a student at your level.

Many instructors have a desire to get students downsized way to early, and others hold them on huge canopies way to long. My feeling is that you should have consistent canopy control under a variety of weather conditions while making the decisions yourself, before such an aggressive downsize.

I'd chat with you first instructors and see what they think, and why, and if you are not comfortable with the smaller canopy then stick with what you have been using for a bit longer.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[rwieder 0]

Follow your heart. If your not comfortable, don't do it.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[JohnDeere 0]

Very smart to question your instructor (since it did not sound/feel right). Check out my bio, Im at a 1.1 WL, and there is no way i would (or any sane person) would recomend you be at a 1.05 with four jumps. A student at my DZ was so happy to jump a 190 Sabre 2 today, but that put him at a .82 WL with 19 jumps. Go with your heart. You should not even think twice to question your instuctors, it is your life we are talking about here not there's. Congrats for using your head.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[AndyMan 7]

I recomend that students downsize one canopy size at a time, and that they do at least two jumps, and often 3 or 4 jumps on each canopy.

That means, after the 260, you should do at least two (maybe 3 or 4) jumps on a 240, then at least two more (maybe 3 or 4) on a 220, then maybe - if you're feeling really good about it, try the 190.

Most students take much longer to get to the 190 - some buy a 220 as their first canopy.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[blackout 0]

I dont weigh much and started on the 220, after 15 jumps I own a sabre 170, I am still well under a 1:1 wing loading and find it substantial for the time being, like everyone stresses here, dont be in a rush to downsize.

Seems weird to me that your instructor would even feel comfortable with doing that. My canopy performance as a student was documented as very good or excellent and everyone I have jumped with was uneasy of the idea of me going from a 200 to the sabre 170 that I bought. I jumped from the 200 to the 170 and did fine. At your weight however, if it isnt something you are comfortable with, I wouldnt do it.

Your equivalent would be me jumping a 135 or 150 maybe, which I am not comfortable with yet. I weigh 140 out the door probably just to give you an idea with 15 jumps and only 2 PLF which were minor

[Fledgling 0]

I would also bet that the 260ft canopy is F1-11 and the 190ft is made of ZP which will be just as big of a change for you as the wingloading.

[Joellercoaster 6]

I don't have any (opinionated) contribution of my own as I'm not a qualified person. But I can tell you that the proposed change would be illegal (ie., contravening the BPA op regs) in the UK, where student wing load is capped at 0.85.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[shermanator 3]

I see that you have Taft as your dropzone, I'm not sure on what gear they have there, but if the reason that they want to downsize such a larch chunk so fast, is because they don't have any inbetween canopies, then maybe also check out other dzs around you. Elinore/Perris have student rigs ranging from 280 down to 220,

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[Couloirman 0]

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I recomend that students downsize one canopy size at a time, and that they do at least two jumps, and often 3 or 4 jumps on each canopy.

That means, after the 260, you should do at least two (maybe 3 or 4) jumps on a 240, then at least two more (maybe 3 or 4) on a 220, then maybe - if you're feeling really good about it, try the 190.


_Am

This is very reasonable, responsible advice and probably the way to go.

Im about the same size as you and think that I have downsized very quickly compared to some so I may be able to relate. Thats a big drop in size, if your DZ has in between rigs there is no reason why you should not go one size at a time. If there aren't in between sized rigs, Id probably wait at least until I was off of AFF and maybe even more jumps to do it.

I stood up perfectly every landing in AFF until level 7 where they switched me from a 230 9 cell F-111 to a spectre 230 and I flared too high, ate shit, and felt like I was beat up for a few days after. If I had been under soomething smaller, well...

If you arent comfortable in your head, no way you'll be comfortable at 50 ft getting ready to touch down. Its almost as much about state of mind as it is about skill.

if you dont think you are ready, you aren't, no matter what the instructor says. Have fun, stay safe, and dont let other people make you feel pressured to downsize if you dont feel ready, its your femur, not theirs.


Ill just finish this off with the usual disclaimer that I am no instructor, or anything even close, just a low-time fun jumper. I just thought Id add my $.02 anyway bc the advice I gave will in no way endanger anyone and I am bored and felt like replying to pad my post count. After all, # of posts on dorkzone.com is directly related to your skill in the air right? Well, now Im one post closer to being a skygod

[virulindex 0]

Well, supposedly even the 190 is a student rig but IIRC there is no shortage of different size student rigs at Taft. If he wants me to downsize I have no problem with that but I don't think I'll be going to the 190 right now.

Thanks for the advice everyone!!

[Baksteen 84]

Let us know what your first instructors have to say about this.

I am very curious.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Gary73 8]

From the 2008 Skydiver's Information Manual, Section 5-3B:

5. The following are suggested maximum wing loadings based on experience level:
a. A and B license 1.0 psf maximum
b. C license 1.2 psf maximum

If you're 180 in street clothes you'll have an exit weight of at least 205, more likely 210, for a wing loading of 1.1 PSF on a 190. So on your fifth jump this "instructor" wants you at a wing loading that's not recommended until you have at least 200 jumps? If he wasn't kidding, this guy is an idiot. Your first instructors may have been a little conservative, but that's not such a bad thing in an instructor. I'd recommend that you talk with at least one of them before you jump again. You shouldn't be jumping anything smaller than a 230 for now.

Oh, WRT the 190 being a student canopy: yes, but for students who weigh 140 or so.

Keep being careful and keep asking questions. You'll make a lot more skydives that way!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[Canadianfella 0]

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Let me just preface this by saying I plan on doing whatever it is my instructor tells me but I find myself being a little nervous...

As an instructor, I find this statement to be very disconcerting. You need to be capable of thinking for yourself (to an extent) as a student. You need to understand things that you are told, not just take everything an instructor tells you at face value. Question everything, ask for explanations and always ask a number of instructors, especially on things like canopy downsizing.

Not all instructors are good at what they do. Many simply do it to make money, some do it simply for the love of the sport and there are many reasons in between. You should be aware of this and not just simply follow them off the bridge because they said to jump.

If you are nervous, you need to ask more questions and understand why your instructor wants you to downsize. You then need to explain your side of things to them and make them understand why you are nervous about it and why you don't think it is a good idea. Perhaps explain that you have spoken with other people, both instructors and not and why they feel it is a silly idea for you to make such a large downsize with so few jumps as well. A good instructor will not simply disregard your feelings on such an issue... They will understand where you are coming from and help you make the right decision for the situation at hand.

Either way, I recommend you downsize a bit slower than that, especially if two of your four landings so far have been plf's... land the canopy you're on really well first, a bunch of times before downsizing...

if i were you, i'd rather be the guy with a huge canopy and both legs in tact than the idiot who downsized too quickly and can't skydive again for a period of time because someone else told me to.

just my 2 cents.

nick

[virulindex 0]

Why do you think I posted this thread?

The preface was so I didn't get the normal "Ask your instructor!" replies.

Edited to add: I've only plf'd once, not twice. I stood the other three up. I don't know where you got your figures for MY landings but they're wrong.

[damion75 0]

And now I've seen it all...

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if i were you, i'd rather be the guy with a huge canopy and both legs in tact than the idiot who downsized too quickly and can't skydive again for a period of time because someone else told me to.

A guy who doesn't want to downsize too fast being flamed for... trying to downsize too fast? In fact I'm not even sure what the point of your post is.

To the OP, sorry you are getting responses like this. Please feel free to downsize as slowly as you like. If necessary, get a new instructor, but I'm sure that it won't be necessary.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[virulindex 0]

Have you considered a career in the psychic/telepathic area? Because you read my mind.

[squarecanopy 0]

I jumped 290, 280, 260, 230 canopies during my AFFs. I jumped a rented 220 Navigator for the next 10 jumps (until jump 25) and got my A license. I then bought a rig with a Sabre 2 190 and jumped it for 25 jumps, pounded in damn near every landing, finally UPSIZING to a Sabre 2 210 to avoid getting seriously hurt. DONT DOWNSIZE if you are not comfortable with doing so. No offense intended at all, but you don't even know enough at this point to be accurate in assessing whether or not you could safely downsize. Go back to your original instructors and get their take on why this new AFFI is talking such a drastic move downward in canopy size. Blue Skies, Safe Landings!

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[JohnDeere 0]

Where you drunk when you posted? All Canadiafella was saying is dony downsize just cuase someone said so, use your own head. Hell im drunk and read it right.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[virulindex 0]

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No offense intended at all, but you don't even know enough at this point to be accurate in assessing whether or not you could safely downsize.

Is writing something like this even necessary? The fact that I'm posting on a wildly popular internet forum asking a question I don't know the answer to kind of show I am aware of the fact I don't yet really know what I am doing?

And isn't it kind of obvious that ANYONE new to ANYTHING is not really going to know what they are doing until they do it a number of times AND ask questions?