Traffic pattern. Did I do the right thing?

[Tuna-Salad 0]

So I was jumping the other day and halfway through my downwind leg the wind changed 90 degrees. So my downwind became my final and (after checking for traffic) I spiraled down to burn off some altitude and land. I know about chasing the windsock close to the ground and low turns, but did I make the right choice to change my approach there or should I have continued with original plan. I have included a picture here... Blue is original plan, Green was what I did. Red would be the wind..

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[dragon2 0]

You didn't attach any picture.

Why did you feel it was necessary to land into the wind? Was there a set landing direction? Why did you think spiraling in the pattern was appropriate? Are you 100% sure you didn't hinder or confuse anyone else?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Nutz 0]

Um, there is no attatchment and yes - you screwed up - you are going to die.

That is a joke in case you were wondering. Ihave no idea really I was just posting here to tell you that, I got nothin'.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[sparkie 0]

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So I was jumping the other day and halfway through my downwind leg the wind changed 90 degrees. So my downwind became my final and (after checking for traffic) I spiraled down to burn off some altitude and land. I know about chasing the windsock close to the ground and low turns, but did I make the right choice to change my approach there or should I have continued with original plan. I have included a picture here... Blue is original plan, Green was what I did. Red would be the wind..

I think it depends on too many factors unknown by the forum visitors to burn you or commend you ;)

At least you checked for traffic, and are thinking about it.

(rant)Unlike s/o i witnessed this saturday at my dz, decided to land downwind halfway through his turn to final at about 60ft, he was lucky to walk away only smudged. He didnt bother to look where he was going with his jerky uncontrolled low turn and i was glad there was noone in his path, and this was a >150 jumps person so he should have know better. (/rant)

to give some kind of answer to you q: if there was little wind, i personally wouldnt have changed my landing pattern. Not only do you increase your own workload, but that of others (if there) as well, and maybe you, or one of the others can't handle that yet.

hth

[riggerrob 561]

Spiralling below one thousand feet is considered bad form on most DZs because it confuses other skydivers and vastly increases the risk of low altitude canopy collisions.

[councilman24 36]

Hard to believe spiraling either at that altitude or in the pattern was justifiable. I seen lots of idiots... ummm unaware skydivers spiral through a pattern and try to kill someone else. Along with several land in that spiral and try to kill themselves. Usually they came out with only broken backs, femurs, and/or pelvis' (pelvi?)

But not enough information to know how much to yell at you.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[d123 1]

Bro, like yourself, I'm also a guy who fuck-up patterns from time to time and I HOPE that I'll stop doing that in the future! It does gets weirder when you change DZ and/or LZ (landing out).

However, from my limited experience co-existing with the wind (power-kite included) when the wind changes 90 degree it means either that the wind is close to 0 (no wind) or that the wind gust is way too strong for me to jump.

I've visited some DZ in Europe where (or I should say: I've been talk to and learned something at a DZ in Europe where ) they lock the landing arrow and everybody lands perfectly safe crosswind. They prefer people to land cross wind than to see them changing pattern in the middle of the landing.

Hope you've paid your beer bro cuz I'm guessing this is the 1st time you did this !!!!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[JohnDeere 0]

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wind changed 90 degrees. So my downwind became my final

Actually if it changed 90 deg. it would change your down wind into your crosswind.

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I spiraled down to burn off some altitude and land.

Never spiral in the pattern!

It depends on if you where first to land or last or in the middle. A couple of better plans would have been to A) Cont. on your crosswind (old down wind) to the correct alt. and turn 90 deg onto final. Or B) Finished your planned patter so as not to confuse others. All depends on how many people where before of after you to land.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[DBCOOPER 1]

I don't know why people feel the need to spiral in the pattern. Just cut away to lose that altitude, turn to the direction you want to be on final and open your reserve. That way you only have to clear the airspace directly below you not 360 degrees around you. Much safer for those sharing the pattern with you.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[JohnDeere 0]

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I don't know why people feel the need to spiral in the pattern. Just cut away to lose that altitude, turn to the direction you want to be on final and open your reserve. That way you only have to clear the airspace directly below you not 360 degrees around you. Much safer for those sharing the pattern with you.

Thats what i meant!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[DSE 3]

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but did I make the right choice to change my approach there or should I have continued with original plan. I have included a picture here... Blue is original plan, Green was what I did. Red would be the wind..

Based on the little information you offer (was this Zhills?), I'd say you didn't make the best choice.
Like others have said, spiraling in the pattern is not acceptable for myriad reasons.
Changing up the pattern isn't a good idea unless you're the first guy down, and even then...
Agreed-upon landing direction is a good plan.
Landing cross wind would have likely been okay. I've seen you land, you're just fine.
What was the pattern on that load? Where were you in the pattern? Others above? Below? Last man down/high pull?

Also, if the wind changed during your downwind leg, it may have been a temp thing (like prop wash). Sticking with the original plan makes you predictable. If you're going to be unpredictable, be sure to land well off/away from others.

the bigger point, Josh...You're thinking things through and asking questions. That's more than a lot of armchair skydivers do.
Illegitimi non carborundum

[airtwardo 6]

"Don't let the bastards grind you down"...you know, for the kids!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[idodsick 0]

why is a downwind or crosswind so feared? honestly!?!?

the diamond can not be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.

[DSE 3]

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"Don't let the bastards grind you down"...you know, for the kids!

Yeah, but you were around when it was known as "kid Latin." Y'know...when everyone actually *spoke* Latin? Wasn't this slang 'back in the day?'

gotta say it again...I've met Tunasalad/Josh in person and jumped with him. he's full of questions, full of drive, and exactly the kind of person I like jumping with. His questions make you think a bit, and then he questions the answer to make you think more. He really does want to do the right things and more impressive; he wants to know WHY they're the right things. That's more than you can say for a lot of folks. if you ever get to meet this very enthusiastic person... give him the time of day, he's worth it.
He's gonna be an awesome instructor one day, IMO.

[crazydiver 0]

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So I was jumping the other day and halfway through my downwind leg the wind changed 90 degrees. So my downwind became my final and (after checking for traffic) I spiraled down to burn off some altitude and land. I know about chasing the windsock close to the ground and low turns, but did I make the right choice to change my approach there or should I have continued with original plan. I have included a picture here... Blue is original plan, Green was what I did. Red would be the wind..

First thing, already been said, never never never spiral in the pattern. Never. When they tell you in your first jump course to only do turns less than 90 degrees below 1000 feet, it is for more reasons than just keeping yourself from smacking the ground. Its for order. :)

I also think there is something to be said for being able to land crosswind and downwind or a combination of any, and that could have kept this more orderly. Depends on the policy of your dropzone. If it's follow the first person down, you would continue to do that, unless things REALLY changed drastically. If it is land in the direction of the wind, do that.

Assuming the winds did change 90 degrees and they were fairly strong and you wanted to land into the wind (and had enough altitude to do so safely), I see a couple options. One would be: where you started to spiral, you could have taken that leg of your pattern out longer (than originally planned) and then slowly turned back down that pattern and eventually turning right into the wind.

Another one: remember how if you realize your altitude is too high for where you are in your patter, you can take one of the legs and "bow it out" thus extending the time you are flying that leg. So in this case, you could have taken your west-facing leg and bowed it out north a bit so you could burn more altitude before turning into the wind (south).

Lastly, this is a reiteration, I think it is important to follow the policy of your dropzone and also to be comfortable with a downwind or crosswind landing, because sticking to your original pattern is the safest for everyone else in the air. If the winds are 5-7mph or less, I"m taking the crosswind or downwind. Heck, even for swoop competitions, the maximum crosswind is 15mph before the meet can be cancelled/postponed. I'll happily take a fat 15mph downwind if its a soft landing area. :)

Hope that helps. And again, none of us can know for sure, since we were not there. We don't know how many canopies were around you, how large the landing area is, or how far south you could have gone if you had skipped the spiraling and just turned south for your final leg.

Cheers,
Travis

[timmyfitz 0]

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why is a downwind or crosswind so feared? honestly!?!?

Because everyone doesn't have mad skillz like you.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I probably should of mentioned i was the next to last person down (Still under a big student canopy) Spiraling was sort of a bad choice of words too.. Either way the consensus is the same.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

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"Don't let the bastards grind you down"...you know, for the kids!

Yeah, but you were around when it was known as "kid Latin." Y'know...when everyone actually *spoke* Latin? Wasn't this slang 'back in the day?'

gotta say it again...I've met Tunasalad/Josh in person and jumped with him. he's full of questions, full of drive, and exactly the kind of person I like jumping with. His questions make you think a bit, and then he questions the answer to make you think more. He really does want to do the right things and more impressive; he wants to know WHY they're the right things. That's more than you can say for a lot of folks. if you ever get to meet this very enthusiastic person... give him the time of day, he's worth it.
He's gonna be an awesome instructor one day, IMO.

Thanks, Spot

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[davelepka 4]

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Spiraling was sort of a bad choice of words too

If you indeed did a complete 360, then spiral is the correct word.

As others have said, it's generally bad form, but by looking at your location in the pattern, you were probably MUCH lower than you should have been to be doing a 360.

Another idea would have been to stick with the pre-determined landing pattern, and when you made you turn onto final, make it a 45 instead of a 90. This would have put you mostly into the wind, and in the case of a left hand pattern (as indicated) you have a clear and open view of the area you'll be using while on your base leg, and you'll be flying to the 'outside' of the pattern on final, with very little chance of cutting anyone off.

Additionally, if you were indeed chasing the wind sock, by splitting the difference, you put yourself in a much better position if the wind should shift back to where it started.

Many have suggested to just land cross or downwind, and this is a reasonable suggestion provided that you don't have any better options. In this case, however, my suggestion would been a better option as it would have put you more into the wind without comprimising the safety of the other jumpers in the pattern.

The concept that you can land cross or downwind has been mis-used often times in this forum. Yes, you can do it, but you will get a better result by being into the wind. The caveat is that being into the wind is not the over-riding factor in making a landing.

Landing with a level wing, and avoiding canopy or object collisions are the top factors to consider. Everything else comes after that. In this case however, as I illustrated, there was an easy way for you to fly the intended pattern, and make a slight change to your turn onto final (which would not effect any other jumpers) and would give you a 45 degree crosswind. To just look at the situation and say 'Fuck it, just take the 90 degree cross wind, you can do it' is stupid.

Food for thought, if the wind had shifted 90 degrees in the other direction, you would have had fewer options. If you flew the predetermined pattern, and wanted to try for the 45 degree cross, your turn from base to final would have been 135 degrees, and would have had you turning back toward the pattern, possibly into the path of traffic coming up from behind you. This would have been a no-no.

In that case your best bet would have been to fly the predetermined pattern all the way down and take the 90 degree crosswind. Additionally, you would be well served in that situation to keep a close eye on traffic on front of you or to your right, as they might want to 'adjust' their final, and turn toward you when they do (the same turn you didn't make to avoid any problems).

[DanG 1]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. Unfortunately, not everyone who is giving the advice agrees with each other. That doesn't make anyone wrong, what it does do is highlight why dropzones should have strictly enforced landing rules. Imagine that you are landing at about the same time as everyone who posted here, and the wind shifts 90 degrees. Some people would take the crosswind, some would make an extra 90 degree turn into the new wind direction, and one person would make a 45 degree split. If there were no predefined landing rules, no one on the load would be "wrong" but you can see the chaos that could ensue.

So the only real answer to your question, "Did I do the right thing?" is the same as the answer to the question, "Did I follow my dropzone's landing rules?"

If your dropzone doesn't have rules for this sort of thing, then there are a whole different set of questions you need to ask, preferably to your S&TA or DZO.

- Dan G

[skydude2000 3]

Ok, I just have a hypothetical theory for this situation, would doing some sashay turns, to burn altitude, and still stay in the pattern, be a viable option here? Not anything too erratic, just enough to get where you want to be for your final approach? That way at least you're not confusing anyone with spirals, you're still flying reasonably predictably, and you're not breaking the pattern? You could also make any minor heading adjustments to allow for any change in wind direction.

PULL!! or DIE!!

[ozzy13 0]

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wind changed 90 degrees. So my downwind became my final

Actually if it changed 90 deg. it would change your down wind into your crosswind.

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I spiraled down to burn off some altitude and land.

Never spiral in the pattern!

It depends on if you where first to land or last or in the middle. A couple of better plans would have been to A) Cont. on your crosswind (old down wind) to the correct alt. and turn 90 deg onto final. Or B) Finished your planned patter so as not to confuse others. All depends on how many people where before of after you to land.

Thats what I wanted to say +1

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[skybytch 259]

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would doing some sashay turns, to burn altitude, and still stay in the pattern, be a viable option here? Not anything too erratic, just enough to get where you want to be for your final approach? That way at least you're not confusing anyone with spirals, you're still flying reasonably predictably, and you're not breaking the pattern? You could also make any minor heading adjustments to allow for any change in wind direction.

Sashays, S-turns, whatever you'd like to call them, are not predictable. They can be very confusing to the people behind you in the pattern (is he turning cuz he's going to land over there? okay, I'll cut over this way... hey, wait a sec, wtf is he doing coming back over here?!?!?).

[AFFI 0]

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Spiralling below one thousand feet is considered bad form on most DZs because it confuses other skydivers and vastly increases the risk of low altitude canopy collisions.

Another thing to consider:
Skydivers have been killed before by self induced malfunctions created by aggressive canopy maneuvers below a safe cutaway altitude.

Rule of thumb – Never do high performance maneuvers below your hard deck.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[danornan 65]

The quick answer is no, you did not do the correct thing because others were in the air ( you may have thought you cleared the air) and you were not predictable and did not follow the excepted pattern.

If you were in the air by yourself, you can do what you did and get away with it. Best, if you don't like the pattern because "your" wind has changed, is to land out and away from the pattern.

Pretend that you were following you. Would you know what to expect?

Dano