Use of Medical Personnel with Injuried Students

[reddn 0]

So, I was down in DeLand 27Feb09 and witnessed a tandem pair hit kind of hard after a gust of wind... The TI got up but the student didn't. After about 2-3 minutes I am quite concerned and start heading out to the pea pit.

As I start to walk out there the guy that owns the drop zone yells at me to get out of the landing area. As a Paramedic and Paramedic Instructor, I figured someone with advanced medical training is better than someone without to assist prior to local EMS arrival.

There was another girl that said she was also a paramedic which he told to get out of the landing area. All skydivers had already landed by this point.

Is this normal??

[tetra316 0]

Quote

So, I was down in DeLand 27Feb09 and witnessed a tandem pair hit kind of hard after a gust of wind... The TI got up but the student didn't. After about 2-3 minutes I am quite concerned and start heading out to the pea pit.

As I start to walk out there the guy that owns the drop zone yells at me to get out of the landing area. As a Paramedic and Paramedic Instructor, I figured someone with advanced medical training is better than someone without to assist prior to local EMS arrival.

There was another girl that said she was also a paramedic which he told to get out of the landing area. All skydivers had already landed by this point.

Is this normal??

Are you sure they were hurt? I've had tandem students almost pass out from the thrill of landing. A few have just requested to just lie there for a few minutes to get there bearing back.

[reddn 0]

Yes, reported angulated fracture of the tibia fibula(tib/fib). He was tansported by the ambulance to the hopsital.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

For a non-life-threatening injury, with EMS on the way, I can see how keeping any "strangers" away can be a good policy. Some DZs have staff/regulars who are qualified, but if they didn't know you or your qualifications, I can see them keeping you away from the situation.

This isn't a knock on you, but there are folks out there who just want a close look and/or don't know as much as they think.
You know better than I how much harm those people can cause, and I'm guessing the DZO knows it too. He's just covering his ass by not letting anyone near the injured party.

I wasn't there, don't jump there. This is just my $.02

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[grimmie 177]

You were a victim of "I'm not a doctor, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night"!

So many unqualified people have tried to help out over the years that some DZO's are leary of letting anyone run out that they don't know.

It happened to me once and I chatted with the DZO over a few cold ones later that evening. I ended up helping out with their emergency plan and getting them some first aid gear.

Once a DZO knows you and your qualifications you'll end up being vital to the program at any DZ.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

So many unqualified people have tried to help out over the years that some DZO's are leary of letting anyone run out that they don't know.

Ding, winner!

Over the past few years I've seen people claim a certain level of expertise in terms of EMS training and the like. The same people that had to be taken out of a scene due to an obvious lack of skill and training. People that were doing VERY dangerous things to the injured that someone with basic first aid wouldn't even do. Maybe they had been through some classes, but they had never dealt with a high stress trauma situation.

So I know that unless I have personal knowledge of your qualifications AND skill, I will kick you off of my scene at the DZ. (Especially since PHI air medical is stationed at my DZ and they will come with medic bags and assist when asked).

Now if you're personally known to the DZ and its staff, you'll become an important person when you're at the DZ!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[reddn 0]

thanks for all of your input..

i agree, younever know what dumb ass is going to come out of the woodwork.. and the DZO's are protecting themselves and students when they are 'minor' injuries

grimmie.. I am not sure if you are aware, but paramedic's practice medicine.


-thomas

[popsjumper 2]

Mother Mary in traction! One of my very worst pet peeves...people with no medical training who rush out to gawk at an accident.

Had you been on-site when Bob Hollar was killed you would know exactly what I mean and why I feel this way.

YOU BOZOS WITH NO MEDICAL TRAINING STAY THE HELL AWAY!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

Is this normal??

Yes and no.

I'd expect the DZO to be wary of letting unkown people rush out to the landing area to a possible injury. OTOH, there are enough highly qualified medical personel at my DZ (The Army medics 4-way team, for one) that it would be highly unlikely for a possible injury to be left unattended for long.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 0]

As others have said, if the DZO doesn't know you from Adam, yes, it's reasonable.
If you visit a new DZ and want to make yourself "available" in case of an emergency, keep some sort of credentials on you, and politely (and humbly) begin a conversation with the DZO early on in your visit - then let him take it from there as he sees fit.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Is this normal??

Do you mean the DZ wouldn't let anyone help the person until the ambulance arrived? No that's not normal.

But if you saw locals helping, they were likely EMT trained. And I'm sure the owner is going to be more comfortable with people he knows and that are also familiar with skydiving injuries helping on a scene.

[Beerlight 0]

Quote

Yes, reported angulated fracture of the tibia fibula(tib/fib). He was tansported by the ambulance to the hopsital.

? Can a medic (EMT and/or Paramedic) be held liable if they "don't" render aid?

That was something I remembered from EMT trng years ago. Recently I renewed, and can't recall what the legal thing is....

[humanflite 0]

I dont know what anyone else thinks but I think every DZ should run mandatory basic first aid training for all licensed jumpers...on a regular basis.

Specifically geared towards the sort of injuries they may see from parachuting. I think this would be a good help in certain situations... (not all... there would still need to be an action plan to avoid a clusterf*ck of newbie first aiders all trying to help out)

Possibly it could even be added to the syllabus for getting a B or C license?

I know its not relevant to a skydive but 'if' that one jumper who had done their basic or advanced first aid course... happened to land next to a badly injured jumper, they could be the person that saves that individuals life in between then and the time that the EMTs arrive.

I know some DZs have super organised emergency plans and loads of qualified medical personel on site... but not every DZ does

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Can a medic (EMT and/or Paramedic) be held liable if they "don't" render aid?

That was something I remembered from EMT trng years ago. Recently I renewed, and can't recall what the legal thing is....

It probably depends on the state.

Here in Vermont we have a solid Good Samaritan Act that compels a person to render assistance to the extent possible as long as it doesn't conflict with duties owed to others, and won't put that person in danger. See: http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=12&Chapter=023&Section=00519. That law applies to anybody, not just trained responders, but it is a state law in Vermont, and should not be relied upon in other states.

Keep in mind that an EMT who is not responding with authority, that is he has not been dispatched and is not covered by medical control, can not practice under his own license because he isn't sponsored under a physicians license. He is limited to basic first aid as a Good Samaritan. It doesn't seem to me that you can be compelled to act as an EMT, if you are prohibited to act without medical control.

I think the case being discussed here involves a visiting EMT-I or -P, so his license to practice is not valid at that location because he doesn't have medical control and isn't part of a local Quality Improvement program. In such a case the responding EMT is really just a regular person with no special duty to act.

We ran into this issue at a DZ in New York State where the local volunteer rescue squad was hyper-territorial, and wouldn't allow anybody not affiliated with their squad to do anything. They flipped out when professional full time paramedics from NY City stabilized a patient, and insisted that their own responding CFR's were to be the caregivers with no assist by the EMT-P's. It was insane, but the New York Department of Health backed them up.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[fred 0]

Quote

YOU BOZOS WITH NO MEDICAL TRAINING STAY THE HELL AWAY!

I watched every episode of Doogie Howser as a kid, so I'm pretty certain I'm prepared.

Seriously, though, the only thing I would do in such a case is try to help with crowd control. I'm not in any position of authority, but I know that if I experienced high impact trauma, I would not want a bunch of people crowded around me, and I really wouldn't want somebody trying to remove my helmet to try to help me breath. I'm of the 'stay back', and 'try to make others stay back' camp.

But Doogie was awesome.

[grimmie 177]

The problem with training everyone that jumps how to do first aid is the continuing education and recertification.

I do think that full time instructors/video flyers/DZO's and managers should have at least a basic first aid course.

But the best available thing to an inured jumper is a smooth and well run DZ emergency plan with the local EMS provider.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

But the best available thing to an inured jumper is a smooth and well run DZ emergency plan with the local EMS provider.

Right on!

When I was the S&TA at The Ranch we had some serious problems with the local rescue squad, and that forced us to work out arrangements and scene management protocols with them. As part of that, I wrote a feature on our web site to help regular jumpers understand what they could do. The feature, listed as "Article 10-In an Emergency" is available at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. It's pretty old, and there may have been changes, but it should give interested folks an idea of how a drop zone can structure a response.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[iluvtofly 0]

We had a minor incident at my dz this past summer. I'm an EMT-B, and I work for the local ambulance service (the one that would respond to any calls at the dz). One of the crews came out to watch one day. (In uniform, with the ambulance. They said they were bored.) They weren't even there 5 minutes and we had our 1 and only injury of the season.
Fortunately my DZO knew that I was not only an EMT but ran with that service so me being down there was not a problem. In fact the crew had me pull the truck down since I knew the terrain (where they landed it's kinda tough to get an ambulance to). It was nice because I was able to act as a liaison between what the crew wanted to do and what the staff at the DZ wanted to do.

On a side note: the next day at work I made an announcement that we at the DZ don't care if they come to watch, but from then on they were only allowed when they WEREN'T working or in uniform. Though it was lucky they were already there, I still feel they jinxed us.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I am not sure if you are aware, but paramedic's practice medicine

I'm more aware then you probably realize, although they practice under a sponsored MD.

The point is that if they're out there off duty, then they aren't operating under that sponsorship. Also, if you're around the sport for some time, you'll see people claiming certain levels of medical training that have put people in serious physical jeopardy with their methods.

So, once again, if you're on my DZ and I don't have personal knowledge of your training and abilities, you will be politely asked to stand aside while the on field air medical personal attend to the injured jumper (while waiting for the local FD EMS to respond).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[keithbar 1]

(grimmie.). I am not sure if you are aware, but paramedic's practice medicine.


-thomas

[grimmie 177]

And I replied that once he introduces himself to the local DZ he will be a vital part of an emergency response.

I'm on a ladder truck, we don't let the "bedpan commandos" from the engine co. touch ANYTHING!

[aresye 0]

I like to think along the lines of...

If you don't have a card, or other proof of training, then you are not trained.

They teach us in rescue swimmer school a more in-depth level of first aid, involving both the primary, and secondary surveys as we perform moulage, or however it's spelled.

I learned a lot, but didn't get any special qualifications from it. I know how to utilize a Level A med kit, and how to stabilize a patient, but overall we are not EMT trained. It's close, but we still lack the qualifications to administer oxygen, and an IV. Right now I'm working on getting my IV training complete, so I hope that sometime in the future I can get my full EMT training. Until then, I will stay away unless called for.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[jvcvudu 0]

At our DZ, we have several well qualified medical folks (including myself) that are trained to respond to incidents. During our 3/14 Safety Day, The DZO and Manager covered incident response to all that attended, stating that a plan is in place for all such events.