I cant believe this needs to be said but.......

[psipike02 0]

As other people have echoed as well, I definately agree. Dg, what you said is true. I didn't take it as harsh at all.

I think that was one thing that my AFF-I's and even my friends now who have more jumps than me always try to instill.

The very first thing Dan-O & Steve said in our FJC was that "You are 100% responsible for what happens to you up there...EVERY TIME."

This weekend I saw two people get injured at my DZ.....it was surreal. You always read about it in the incident forum but when you witness it first hand, its a little shocking.

It doesn't necessarily scare me out of skydiving, as it makes me want to be safer and learn from the mistakes of others if you will....

Anyways, it was a good post....thats definately something every student/low jumper should have said to them...

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[Brian425 0]

Dom,
A little harsh; but, all true. I had an instructor that told me that from the moment I left the plane, my main goal was to save my self. He told me that I should not consider my skydive done or to be totally safe until I was back in the packing area. I used to laugh a little when he told me that. He ALWAYS said, "I am very serious. You can die in a skydiving related incident up until you drop your rig to pack it."

In two years, I have seen a friend break his back and femur and have to learn to walk again. I have a friend who broke a femur and tore her aorta while visiting another DZ. Not easy thing to see or deal with.

For me it meant that I take skydiving much more seriously. It is fun; but, it is all about risk management and preparation. I am lucky that I have a few people that I trust to seek guidance from.

The driving a car comparison just doesn't sit right with me. I would say that skydiving is the single most dangerous thing I do on a regular basis.

I love the sport; but, I know that the great feelings and wonderful people must be blanaced out by something. If there are great highs, there will most likely be great lows.

God Bless to all our friends that were lost this weekend. Hugs and Vibes to there friends and families.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[bozo 0]

Well said.
As an old jumper I have lost so many friends, to skydiving, it breaks my heart to see a weekend like this.
Its dangerous kids....it will kill you, or even worse, handicap you terribly.


bozo

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[Broke 0]

The best thing for us all to do would be to celebrate those lost. They all died doing something that they loved to do.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[stitch 0]

GOOD POST!!!

No matter how hard a lot us us are grieving right now,you have to realize that sooner or later you will lose someone you know and admire.It is just a fact of life.We all know(if you don't,you're in denial)the risks involved with every jump we make.We continue because it helps to enrich our lives,and the lives of others.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Some of those pms were me, I am having a hard time understanding why it was her and not someone like me, who has done stupid shit, She has yelled at me so much because I made poor choices. I accepted the fact that I could die, I missed the part where it feels like your stomach is being ripped out when someone you love dies doing the one thing they told you to either never do or wait a long time to try. She made me promise to wait on making my first BASE, she said to trust her. I knew I could have jump if I wanted to, I knew if I wanted it bad enough it could happen, but theres very few on here I love. I love her, why was I so naive? Well I wasnt about to go into a friendship assuming I was going to lose them, whats the point if it is just taken from you. Its just like me not dating someone I couldnt be with long term. I am in shock that it was her and not me or someone else, Its easy to accept that we may die, hell if I die I dont know it, its those around me that have to go on.

Its not so much that I didnt know , its that I wasnt willing to give up skydiving based on the chances and I wasnt willing to let those chances keep me from the friends I have. I have named so many people Id rather be seeing collections for in my head, and I feel mean, and bitter. I am on that list. I just didnt realize I had it in me to wish others would take her place when she wouldnt wish that herself and I wouldnt wish it if I were the incident.

Or its the fact I havent slept. I will sleep though, I just am in awe that so many people are able to hold it together when I usually am not attached. No more attachments. Do you think Dom that once you go through it this many times , that it might be hard for you to remember what its like to lose your friend to a hobby for the first time. You are kind hearted and I imagine you are working to remain strong when in fact you have lost 3 people. I just give up.... I loved to much to hold it together and I am well aware that this is not my strong point. Its not easy knowing I have wasted 82 jumps worth of time and money only to fight images of her last moment. Not my last moment, I accepted the possiblility that I could die. Im just in shock it was someone as awesome in the air as her and not someone who sucks so much its a wonder I didnt go in. Its survivors guilt. Alot will feel it esp since she looked after us low timers and didnt segregate us.

Its not wrong to have not fully grasped this concept of this sport. A part of me was lost after I hit refresh 100 times or so hoping it was all a mistake. Thats not something anyone who is new like me could fathom, however that being said, me personally I dont have many friends that I love and would punch a tv and the other aggression I battled through in my apartment on. I know those who I love , feel the same way, I just didnt want to look at the fact that no ones to good. No one will be good enough. So why do we do it? Why am I quitting because of the pain yet thinking if I could just sleep I could jump tomorrow? Why because its grief. It sucks. And everyone has something this weekend as it was bad bad bad for our sport. And I now realize unless I can quit and cut away from my friends I may go through this again. I havent decided if it is worth it yet. And it will be a huge battle. I was not and never would have been able to be prepared for this. Its not in the SIM and thats what I know. This part I had to feel.... and its worse then anything I have ever gone through with a friend.

So basically I agree that it was nice to live in the bubble where the fatalities werent from my group that I hold dear to my heart. I want that bubble back and I would do anything to be naive to that extent again if it will help me stop hurting. And as you all pull together, I push away, because whose next? Its going to be a battle but one saved for when I can see, and I can understand better. I just havent accepted this instence. Yet reality and the bonfire proves to me its all real. I am blessed , and I will remind myself of that as I figure out, if I am prepared to watch one of the others die and if I have it in me to not be angry at those who arent hurting. Its a personal thing and one that we all are dealing with on some level. This isnt the first time and sadly its not the last, but dammit I am selfish and I want my bubble back. That one where I could say it hadnt happened and I hope I have enough in me to get through it. And since there are hundreds of skydivers I know of but only 6 I love my chances were not bad. It just should have been me, I did the stupid stuff in the air while others taught me it was stupid and helped me.... now I lose them. Its not making sense. And it never will, but I will accept it , as I know I am not strong but strong enough.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

Let's not argue here. The last few days were devastating for both the skydiving and BASE communities.
...
Let's also be a little kinder toward each other for a few days while we sort all this out.

I'm sorry, Walt. In a previous life, I was a Safety professional. I've spent a lot of time weighing risks and benefits. I've spent a lot of time working as a safety trainer too, helping people objectively sort things out. It always sets me off when people make safety comparisons in order to rationalize. I can't help it. CLICKY.

I do realize this is a very difficult time and that we are all hurting.

[darnknit 0]

Quote

Based on the number of licensed drivers in the United States in 2005 and the reported number of car-accident related deaths.

Vs.

Number of USPA members and the reported # of skydiver deaths in 2005.

in the last twenty-one years, i have spent a hell of alot more time driving than skydiving.

i've been in two accidents on the road. neither one was anywhere close to life threatening and i have never suffered any injuries driving.

while skydiving on the other hand, i have bruised my leg from just below my butt to the middle of my calf. in a seperate incident i have gotten my knee to swell to twice it's normal size.

then there was the double malfunction that made my teammate cry because he was sure i was dead. i don't know if you've ever landed a double mal(maybe you have, given your username), but there ain't no part of it that is fun, sweetpea.

i gotta disagree with ya on this one cupcake, but then again i suppose it is possible you do most of your driving on an active volcano that could erupt at any second.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[billvon 2,407]

>Do you think Dom that once you go through it this many times,
>that it might be hard for you to remember what its like to lose
>your friend to a hobby for the first time.

I'll never forget the first few times, although sometimes I wish I could. I didn't sleep for days.

[popsjumper 2]

Dom,
Not harsh at all.
As already shown by someone in this thread, some of us really need a good kick in the ass.

I'm with you, big brother.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

Do you think Dom that once you go through it this many times , that it might be hard for you to remember what its like to lose your friend to a hobby for the first time.

It had not gotten any easier at all Lisa. I have lost over 15 friends in my time in this sport. Each one effected me in a different way. I cried last night, when I found out about all of these people. I cared for each one of them. It never gets easier. That would mean we don't have feelings. I am sad they are gone. I am sad I will never get to talk to them again (at least not in this life).

But I knew they could go and I excepted that risk from the 1st time I ever stepped on a DZ. I am not talking about the risk of me dying. I am talking about the risk of losing someone I know in this sport. I wont blame the sport or be shocked that it happens is all. I have opened myslef up to that pain.

Are you ready to do the same? That is the question. SOme people can handle that fact others can't and by not realizing that fact they are in a for a rude awakening.

Dom

[darnknit 0]

Quote

They all died doing something that they loved to do.

i doubt any given human is a fan of potentialy fatal blunt force trauma. that is what they were doing when they died.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[NWFlyer 2]

There's accepting it intellectually and then there's accepting it emotionally. I don't think you understand the emotional till it happens. Then you figure out if it's acceptable to you.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[pop 0]

Quote

I think it's important to add this can be said about many, if not most, things in life.

Skydiving is relatively safe compared to driving my car each day. My car doesn't have a reserve, so to speak.

And while I agree you must accept the possibility & probabiliy of all of the above you mentioned, I would NOT go as far to say it is a given. It's just like anything else.

You are right and you are wrong. Statistically you have a less chance of getting killed if you made one skydive in a year vs. driving a car for a whole year. Actually its more like 10 skydives or less in a given year.

But here is the thing. By skydiving you are INCREASING your chances since you are not substituting it for driving, but instead adding it as another activity.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[dgskydive 0]

Glad you are still with us!!!!

Be safe sweety. We have more 00 jumps to do.

Dom

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Glad you are still with us!!!!

Be safe sweety. We have more 00 jumps to do.

Hell yeah. I'll be looking for you when I get to 300.

[speedy 0]

Quote

IF YOU CAN'T EXCEPT THIS THEN GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you mean "accept"

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[dgskydive 0]

smart ass

Dom

[jumper03 0]

Quote

Quote

Glad you are still with us!!!!

Be safe sweety. We have more 00 jumps to do.

Hell yeah. I'll be looking for you when I get to 300.

just remember - PEEL then PUNCH....

Scars remind us that the past is real

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Based on the number of licensed drivers in the United States in 2005 and the reported number of car-accident related deaths.

Vs.

Number of USPA members and the reported # of skydiver deaths in 2005.

Both assume the same thing: Not every licensed driver drives. Not every USPA member jumps. There's not really a way ( at least, in a few minutes time) to do a completely accurate comparison, but by my calculations, the percentages are the same with .001 percent chance more skydiving.

I think my problem with this line of thinking is that risk is not a zero sum game. Driving cars is risky, yes. Plenty of people die and are injured doing it every day.

What you are doing is saying, "Looking at the number of smokers and the people who die of lung cancer versus the number of people in the US versus those who die of heart disease, the numbers are pretty similar. So, smoking is no more risky than everyday living is for heart disease."

To minimize the risk of this sport is to do a disservice to it and the people involved. It's not just an amusement park ride.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

I have had a few pm's today from low time jumpers that have just amazed me.

It shouldn't. The only place probably 90% of Americans have ever seen someone die is on TV. People can't wrap their minds around just how horrble it is until it happens. Then magnify it by millions when it is someone they care about. It's just beyond most people's realm of experience. Sadly, as you so point out, if you are around this sport long enough. You will know.

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

As already shown by someone in this thread, some of us really need a good kick in the ass.

Kick my bootay all you want. I still practice my safety guidelines, focus and JUMP.

I've already conceeded the car analygy was not the best or most accurate. Nor did I say I'm substituting this for that (skydiving for driving).

My point is some jump for "the thrill of knocking on death's door" and some enjoy the flight while being smart about it. Another point is that, like anything else, there is risk involved. Many things have more risk than others and we each weigh those risks in deciding whether or not we will partake in an activity.

One can choose to avoid any and all of such activites, or one can choose to take the risk and possibly/probably have a great time doing them.

My point is that I don't believe I am more likely to die skydiving simply for the fact I am a skydiver.

I wanted to add to the original post that it can be applied to most things in life and is not necessarily a given---just more likely than other things and less likely than other things. It is just like anything else.

Furthermore, I don't believe in editing my posts if it changes the content (just for grammar/spelling) but if I did I would have removed the car analygy while still standing by my point.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[niolosoiale 0]

You don't jump to die, you jump to live.

I figured I might try to direct something at Lisa here:

Death only takes the state of living, it doesn't take the life. The life goes on in the hearts and minds of everyone. Don't grow bitter towards death. If you grow bitter and angry, you are giving death the very thing you should be careful to protect; their life as you have within yourself. Grieve and mourn, but do not let dark things have your thoughts and feelings.

On another note...

One of the things I feel great about related to skydiving, specifically the community of skydivers, is that there is this fertile soil for me to develop. An element of the soil is the death factor. Many skydivers have lost many friends to the sport yet persist (thought not all). The point being this.

Here is a sport where the people do something which, according to many people, shouldn't be done. You take yourself and put it in an environment which it does not logically belong. You do something, which logically, would kill you had you not taken steps to hopefully prevent your death. And what do you get for it? Everything that the naysayers and whuffos never will. The experiences which I couldn't even begin to do justice with my limited time/involvement in the sport. But nothing is free. These special things which attract and keep you in the sport do come at a cost: the cost of lives. I believe I read a post on here somewhere about death being the currency with which you pay to partake in the sport. And the focal point of that for me is that you willingly pay. You make the choice to take the risk. It's such a liberating and exhilerating thing to take your life into your hands and say "I will risk all of this for one thing; to skydive." It doesn't make much sense to outsiders but it doesn't have to. But everytime someone goes in, it's as if death and life leave a note on their way out. "Will you risk it all, again? Is it worth it?" And what you find is that there are people that mourn the loss and still get back on the horse. It is worth it.

Now here is something to remember. I've already said it in more or less words but it still remains true. Don't focus on the death, focus on the life. The life stays with us when the body can not. The life which was lived made it all worth while. Death serves as our reminder of this fact. Live life, then die. Don't die before you've lived. I think in regards to Shannon, everyone can agree she is a prime example of someone who lived life like no other. Keep that in mind.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I dont know, Im not scared to die while jumping (I am affraid of the tib / fib injury ) but I have a mom in me, in the fact that theres so many people hurting and we are all on such different levels and grieving in our own way that even though we are together, I feel alone. My first instinct is to say no more friends only jump.... but thats not realistic and Im going solely on emotions today, or yesterday... how long has it been ? Why are we all sitting here still trying to deal with death when I know she wants us to live. My brain knows the right things but my heart wins. Im heartbroken. Simple as that and I wasnt ready for it to be today.... maybe next year.... after I had more jumps or my own rig.... I dont know I dont think its ever a good time to lose her but I sit here waiting for answers, waiting for some sign that I will jump again. Some sign she wasnt in pain, something... I dont know... but I do know that I am going to the mall and getting dippin dots. I just have to get out of this pain, and I look to you experienced jumpers and you reiderate what I know.... it becomes love, not friendship and we only win if we are willing to lose.... it becomes about it as a whole. 3 people, thats some bullshit.... I feel pity for our whole sport..... but most of all for those who will never be able to fully understand why.... I think I now know why ... but I wont make a decsion, not until its clear to me that I can sit there and look at my best friend for the last time and go through this again. Then Ill jump again.... It is nice to not be the only one re-evaluating.... I know what will happen in the end.... but I am hoping I have more sense to preserve myself then my happiness, in the end.... I will do what I want because I know when I get on that plane, its me, and me alone, no one controls my skydives but me but I wish there could have been something that changed that when it was the others I have no control over at all. I just sit and watch. And well who knows Im off on a tanget again and very determined to finally get away from dz.com. To much of her right now, to much to remember, to much to miss. We were lucky to know her yes, but that just makes it that much harder.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[skydivermom 0]

I'm a newbie and this has all hit home in a major way. My stomach has been in knots, and I didn't even know any of these people.

If I had not reacted like this, I believe it would be cause for concern, and probably time to quit.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28