Newbie - Safety of the Sport

[kmcdrop 0]

As a newbie (2 jumps - static line), I'm trying to communicate to family and friends that skydiving risk is very similar to flying (private aircraft).

I've been a private pilot for 20 years (without incident). When I got my license in 1989, I set certain personal flight minimums which are basically double the FAA minimums (inflight visibility, ceiling minimums, etc.).

I've studied the fatality reports over the past few years (about 132 of them). However, I could only identify about 6 which look like they were due solely to equipment failures. All the rest look like they could be categorized as "pilot error." For example: hook turns at 50 feet, failure to deploy the reserve, a couple of suicides, etc. If that's the case, then the fatal accident profile for skydiving is very similar to private flying - the equipment might be the first part of a problem but it's almost always the pilot's / jumper's response which actually causes the fatality.

Am I correct in what I've derived from the stats? I've already set personal minimums for skydiving just as I did for flying (and I've not violated them in 20 years). For skydiving, I've set my minimum container opening at 3,000 feet, my hard deck at 2,000 feet, and I won't be jumping anything more than a 1.0 loading. (I've read too many fatality reports about people downsizing far beyond their skill level. Besides, I don't need to go fast, I like the canopy ride!) I've also eliminated any CRW or freefly stuff since those seem to just increase the risk factors. Do those "minimums" improve my safety profile? It's tough trying to explain to people that the sport can be done safely if the right attitude and actions are taken.

Kevin M. Curran

[humanflite 0]

CRW and Freefly can be done safely if done by competent persons...

but I would agree, incidents in this sport are largely down to human error.

Though you cant take the risk completely out of skydiving. no matter how you justify it.
Sometimes, sh*t just happens.... and to the safest people as well.

[JohanW 0]

No CRW. No freefly. No bigways. No swooping. No demos.

No parties. No weather hold activities. NO BEER.

All of that is a little heavyhanded, though. With experience, training and preparation you could very well do CRW, and freefly, and swooping. (Bigways and demos tend to have risks that you can't really reduce *yourself*.) Parties, WHAs and beer are just plain dangerous, even to saints. Don't even think about stuff like drinking tequila at a party.

The important thing to learn is not what particular discipline or activity to shun completely, it's to know your own limits and not go beyond them. Your decision making skills from flying will help you know what not to do, and how to approach the things you want to do, and will be able to do relatively safely.

And learning CRW, freefly and swooping will learn you to deal with shit you didn't ask for, tried to avoid, but got into anyway. Better to learn them slowly, under controlled circumstances, than to have to learn them instantaneously under completely out of control circumstances, and having to get it right the first time.

I respectfully submit, if you haven't broken your personal minimums for 20 years, there may have been times when you could have made better, safer choices to deal with situations by breaking your personal minimums. It may be safer to open at 2800' while stable than at 3000' while unstable. Or you may be able to increase your horizontal separation from a lower jumper by burning through 3000'. With 2 jumps experience, there's a lot you don't even know you don't know yet. Do keep an open mind. There are few, very few absolutes in this sport.

But your age and your experience work in your favour.

Fast canopy rides are fun though!

Johan.
I am. I think.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Generally you are right, but there are some nuances to this.

1. Pure equipment failure.... relatively rare. I have friend who is only alive today due to her AAD saving her from a double hard pull... both main and reserve.

2. Mixed equipment failure with user issues ... fairly common. An example would be spinning main canopy cut away with a delayed reserve deployment.

3. User issues harming user very common as you cited above. Poor canopy selection, low turns, etc.

4. User issues harming other there have been a series of canopy collisons in recent years where jumpers who did nothing wrong got killed when they got struck from above and behind (from their blind spot).

While generally your personal limits make some sense... I think that some might not be such good ideas:

Limiting wingloading too much can really limit your options on a windy day.... I would rather be going forward on a conservatively loaded canopy than to be going backwards on a super floaty canopy.

Because I took the time to do some CReW jumps with a VERY experienced CReW dog, I now know what a downplane looks and feels like. Even if I never get to do another CReW jump (damn tennis elbow), that experience makes me a safer jumper in case of a 2-out downplane.

As mentioned previously, while 3000 ft is a fine deployment altitude... I would gladly give up a bit of altitude to avoid a deployment time collision.

Of course my comments are not about student activities, but are about experienced jumpers.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[mr_music11 0]

4get trying to rationalize to whuffo's the "saftey" of skydiving. Its a dangerous sport.... period. Yes, TONS of life's activites are dangerous and have a "risk factor" to them. As with anything that does have a risk factor... minimize the risk and then judge for yourself if it is something that you are willing to....risk. I too have set saftey limits above SIM guidelines to further minimize the risks...but again after all, there is a reason for the legal disclaimer that you see sewn, stickered or sign to waiver stating skydiving's inherant dangers. Good luck.. blue skies and soft landings

If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Limiting wingloading too much can really limit your options on a windy day.... I would rather be going forward on a conservatively loaded canopy than to be going backwards on a super floaty canopy.

There aren't any wind conditions that I'd be willing to jump my 105 in where I wouldn't jump a 210.

I've jumped my 245 in my accuracy rig with 180 pounds under it in 20 MPH winds. While I had to be smart about staying up-wind of the pea gravel it wasn't a big deal.

Forward speed only increases with the square root of wingloading, so one size is only going to get you 5-6%, two sizes 11-12%, three sizes 18%.

Forward speed numbers are spotty on sport skydiving gear, but Paraflite provides them for it's military setups. Their 370 square foot 11 cell is rated at 28.6 MPH at a .54 wing loading and and 37.5 MPH at .8 pounds per square foot. You'll be going plenty fast even at student wingloadings, and an extra 2 MPH for one size smaller or 4-5 MPH for two sizes isn't going to make a difference.

The differences into how fast you penetrate into a head wind may be substantial (40 MPH of forward speed gets you 10 MPH ground speed in a 30 MPH wind which is double the 5 MPH you get with 35 MPH forward component of air speed) but you're better off learning to spot and not getting down-wind of the target. Land out if you really need to - you can go very far down wind if you really need to get away from obstacles by cutting your descent rate to the minimum with brakes and riding the wind past whatever is beneath you.

[pchapman 262]

Do you have stats on private pilot or small general aviation fatality rates? In skydiving it often comes out to 1 in 1000 active participants per year. (This excludes students who do one jump etc.) I found about the same numbers when going through stats for amateur built aircraft, but imagine that other parts of general aviation do a little better.

There are some other threads out there on how to convince others that skydiving isn't crazy -- although the consensus is that it can't be called truly safe. Certainly there's an aspect of skydiving that is less disciplined than in general aviation.

Printing out the rather large USPA SIM and dropping it on a friend's desk may help in convincing them that there are rules and established procedures in the sport.

Having a background in aviation and risk analysis should also help you make less than rash decisions in the sport.

In skydiving you'll probably re-set your minimums once you learn more appropriate limits and gain experience.

[nerd137 0]

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For skydiving, I've set my minimum.....

Your perspective on what is and is not "safe" in skydiving is likely to change substantially as you gain experience.

[happythoughts 0]

Not that many people die, but there are worse things.

A lot of people bust themselves up.

[bikerxxuk 0]

I have not researched this myself so it could be wrong, but I was told that I am more likely to be injured on the roads travelling to and from the dz than I am being injured while jumping.
That is what I tell my worried family and they seem to accept that.

It's my Natural Arch !

It has nothing to do with pies whatsoever !

[kelpdiver 2]

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I have not researched this myself so it could be wrong, but I was told that I am more likely to be injured on the roads travelling to and from the dz than I am being injured while jumping.
That is what I tell my worried family and they seem to accept that.

sorry, buddy, you're wrong.

As for the original poster - it's probably true that skydiving and GA are about the same, but that's not really a high bar. Active choices (ones you can really make, not just say you'll make) probably account for half the risk.

[erdnarob 1]

I am a private pilot for 23 years (550 hours) including night flying rating and I am a skydiver for 36 years (2100+ jumps) and I am still alive (few scarry things but not too much trouble in both acivities). The idea is to be knowledgeable about your airplane operating specifications and your parachute equipment and have skill and appropriate technique in both. But above all, you have to adopt the right attitude concerning safety.
Better to be on the ground wishing to fly or jump than being in the air and have regret not to be on the ground

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[popsjumper 2]

Your history of staying within your limits is to be greatly commended! Your willingness and efforts to learn are spot on!

I cannot believe the number of those telling you to do things beyond your personal limits as though your limits are wrong.

Only YOU can set those limits. Only YOU. DO NOT let anyone talk you out of changing those limits. Granted, as you gain experience, your limits may change but let it be because YOU make that decision....and let it be a well-informed one.

Particularly appalling is the "once you learn more appropriate limits" comment.

What the hell does "more appropriate" mean?
The implication is that your limits are not appropriate.
That thought is utterly and totally bullshit.

This raises a good point. Be aware that people giving advice often have no clue as to what they are saying and more often have no clue about how that advice applies to YOU.

The limit you set for YOURSELF is what counts and you are the conservative type, obviously. Stick with it as you have done in the past with GA.

The only question I have is concerning your "hard deck" of 2000 ft. Will you say why you chose that limit?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[shropshire 0]

Yeap - setting reasonable, safe initial goals is good so is allowing them to flex over time, training and experience. No need to be dogmatic.

Be safe and enjoy

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nerd137 0]

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I have not researched this myself so it could be wrong, but I was told that I am more likely to be injured on the roads travelling to and from the dz than I am being injured while jumping.
That is what I tell my worried family and they seem to accept that.

Search the forums for discussions about the risks of skydiving versus those of driving. You'll get about a zillion threads.

[nerd137 0]

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Particularly appalling is the "once you learn more appropriate limits" comment.

Soooooooo.... are you saying that one's limits shouldn't be affected by one's level of experience?

I think it's safe to say that every skydiver adjusts their limits at least a little bit as they progress. No?

[rmarshall234 13]

Having engaged in both activities for awhile, I'd say the difference is that with GA you have a greater level of control over your own safety. Yeah, there are midairs but they are extremely rare.

Thinking back to the "close calls" I've had skydiving through the years, most were when someone else almost took me out. Sometimes the jump ship pilot, other times another skydiver.

It all comes back to weighing the risk vs the fun.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I've studied the fatality reports over the past few years (about 132 of them). However, I could only identify about 6 which look like they were due solely to equipment failuresmaintenance errors/omissions for which the jumper is responsible. All the rest look like they could be categorized as "pilot error." For example: hook turns at 50 feet, failure to deploy the reserve, a couple of suicides, etc. If that's the case, then the fatal accident profile for skydiving is very similar to private flying - the equipment might be the first part of a problem but it's almost always the pilot's / jumper's response which actually causes the fatality.

Fixed it for you.

[shah269 0]

This is a cool thread!
Thanks for the info

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I have not researched this myself so it could be wrong, but I was told that I am more likely to be injured on the roads travelling to and from the dz than I am being injured while jumping.

If you're on a motorcycle, that may be true. Not if you're in a car, unless you're a really, really bad driver.

I figure you have a 0.1% chance of getting killed in an active (200 jumps or so) year in our sport. I can "live" with that.

[Baksteen 84]

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Soooooooo.... are you saying that one's limits shouldn't be affected by one's level of experience?

The wording makes all the difference

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once you learn more appropriate limits

That implies that the OP's current personal limits are ridiculous, while only they can determine in which conditions they should jump (it's better wishing to be on the ground...).

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I think it's safe to say that every skydiver adjusts their limits at least a little bit as they progress.

states that your comfort zone expands with experience, which is definitely a reasonable observation.
There's no absolutes in skydiving - even though we teach new students differently. FJC-Students (hopefully) do not get taught to "pull at the designated altitude only if you're sure that your AFFI's are clear. If they are still near you, try changing your tracking vector and perhaps pull a little lower. Do a barrel-roll during your tracking to make sure the airspace above you is clear as well."
A-licencees jumping with other (inexperienced) people are a different story - up to a point.

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I was told that I am more likely to be injured on the roads travelling to and from the dz than I am being injured while jumping.
That is what I tell my worried family and they seem to accept that.

The only thing that skydiving and driving have in common is that you can do it as unsafely as you like, but that if you use your common sense, the risks are acceptable.
That's what I tell my parents and they accept it.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

As a newbie (2 jumps - static line), I'm trying to communicate to family and friends that skydiving risk is very similar to flying (private aircraft).

I've been a private pilot for 20 years (without incident). When I got my license in 1989, I set certain personal flight minimums which are basically double the FAA minimums (inflight visibility, ceiling minimums, etc.).

I've studied the fatality reports over the past few years (about 132 of them). However, I could only identify about 6 which look like they were due solely to equipment failures. All the rest look like they could be categorized as "pilot error." For example: hook turns at 50 feet, failure to deploy the reserve, a couple of suicides, etc. If that's the case, then the fatal accident profile for skydiving is very similar to private flying - the equipment might be the first part of a problem but it's almost always the pilot's / jumper's response which actually causes the fatality.

Am I correct in what I've derived from the stats? I've already set personal minimums for skydiving just as I did for flying (and I've not violated them in 20 years). For skydiving, I've set my minimum container opening at 3,000 feet, my hard deck at 2,000 feet, and I won't be jumping anything more than a 1.0 loading. (I've read too many fatality reports about people downsizing far beyond their skill level. Besides, I don't need to go fast, I like the canopy ride!) I've also eliminated any CRW or freefly stuff since those seem to just increase the risk factors. Do those "minimums" improve my safety profile? It's tough trying to explain to people that the sport can be done safely if the right attitude and actions are taken.

Shut Up & Jump

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[hallux 0]

check another thread. You will find different opinions.
If you have a family you shouldnt jump. If you make any mistakes then quit.
The sky will always be there, try again when you are older

[Baksteen 84]

I didn't tell that OP to quit - just that if they decided that it's the best decision at this time that's no reason not to stay involved.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[kmcdrop 0]

Strangely enough - perhaps - my profession is risk analysis. I don't have the stats on general aviation anymore, but I did provide the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office of the FAA) with an analysis about 15 years ago. The way it breaks down is that private aviation has a similar risk factor as motorcycle riding - on an hourly basis. GA is safer than driving because you have to spend less time in the air to get to your destination. However, if you were to spend the same amount of time in a car vs. in a private plane, you're at higher risk in the plane.

Of course, you have to look at the details - just as I have in skydiving. A majority of accidents are not equipment problems but just people doing one or more "dumb" things. I have a better chance of a midair collision in a plane when I'm in the pattern getting ready to land. Same thing seems to be true in the skydiving landing pattern.

Kevin M. Curran