Landings as an early AFF student- PLFs, stand-ups, injury? (long)

[skyflower_bloom 0]

So- it's a long long post. For those who don't want the relevant background info or breakdown of past jumps' landings and instructions, basically, I had a hard/bad landing today and got a badly sprained ankle- definitely could have been much worse. I did not PLF with proper technique, not really at all I don't believe.. unsure if I should have or if it would have done anything but I suppose wondering now won't change anything- just might give me/others perspective for the future. My ankle hit first and took most of the force and no other injuries.

Those who saw said they did not notice anything unusual or concerning about the landing until I went down; that it seemed a decent final approach and flare, and didn't look odd. We/they are postulating that what may have happened is that given the weird winds this weekend, there could have been a low gust or turbulence which caused me to go down differently or "threw me" somehow; that I just twisted it a weird way on a harder but normal landing, and/or that I had landed nearer the perimeter of the landing area where it is not as level so I might have caught that foot/ankle in an uneven area of ground. I also vaguely don't remember the full flare after neck, but I am not implying or saying that I was not radio'ed to flare in time, nor that I was radio'ed and didn't respond in time; I had always heard that most landing injuries related to flare timing were from too early/high flares anyways, so I don't know what that would do even if it were accurate or relevant, but my memory is a bit hazy, and as stated, the observers, while obviously not aware I was going to get injured thus not watching that closely, did say that it seemed a normal approach and landing- I just may have blanked in my memory the final/full flare.

Anyways, I am looking for some feedback on AFF student landings (of course, with the requisite, I plan to talk more with my instructors about it, but they have been great and have been in contact to make sure I got it checked and that all us well). How to know when PLF should be used, if students ever just make it a point to PLF no matter what or at what level do you get a better feel for it, along with when to flare, etc. which I guess ties into radio use which I know is covered and I have searched and read some threads that cross into this topic.. I guess I'd like some input generally but also specifically on my situation..
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Now long version/landing history; I've done a tandem and 4 AFF levels so far. Tandem is "AFF-1" (or counts as such) in the program I am doing, as I notified the tandem instructor (also one of my AFF-Is) that I wanted it to be a learning tandem to help prepare me for the AFF course and jumps, so it was more than just a ride (though I think in their program any one tandem counts towards the progression, since they want you to have the experience of a tandem prior to the AFF).

So- I did "AFF-2" (first AFF style jump) immediately following the full day first jump course, with good arch and very soft landing, could have stood it up (well, momentarily did stand it up) then just sorta plopped over on the ground and laughed for a bit cause it was fun and the first time you land a parachute yourself (with some radio help of course) is a nice feeling. Also I was unsure if I should be trying at all to stand up landing or if it was safer to just go over anyway since it was my first time.. yeah I realize that wouldn't have made a difference if I had actually been coming in for a rough landing, and what I did, by standing up at first anyways, made going over the path of least resistance lol but surely didn't change the outcome in any way.. but I didn't know what the protocol was or if students were expected to PLF (yes, I have since clarified this, and should have done so sooner, still need to get more info on this for me to feel confident when I return but anyway)- I just sorta told myself at the time that it's better to be prepared to PLF and have it be an unnecessary PLF than to not do it when needed. (Now note, I have never ACTUALLY done a PLF for real on landing; I have simply been of the mindset and body position to be prepared, and done weird stand then fall type soft landings- yeah I know flame away lol, but that's what I had been doing)

I am now beginning to learn the more nuanced thinking behind PLF and landing techniques, but remember, this is/was me thinking very early in my progression, and I am still very early. I just felt I should always be ready to PLF since I was not confident at that point that I would know if or when it would be needed (though I have radios on, so that would potentially help, maybe I just need to trust that or ask what that protocol is, but it seems that, as I also understand I am responsible for my own safety, and the fast nature of the landing/PLF, that I would need to know to initiate it and do it right.. thus my thinking on this and the impression I sort of got when we went over the technique, that's it's better to be ready to PLF than not to and wish you had??)

So- second AFF-style jump for me ("AFF-3" in my progressions' terminology) I also potentially could have stood it up/run it out, very soft, but was again thinking that I might have to PLF and basically was going with the whole knees together but not locked, getting ready to PLF if needed.. so stood up, might have taken a step or two, then toppled over again softly.

Then AFF-3, the second time (repeat to focus on awareness at exit and at pull, which I did better that jump- so this was my fourth jump total, if you count a tandem) It was the hardest landing I have had yet; I noted this in my log book. Now, not hard in any way which would have hurt me or needed a PLF, from my own experience and asking around; just slightly but noticeably harder than any of my prior landings to that point. My feet touched first but I just went down without trying to stand/run or without being able to, unsure which. I believe when the radio said "neck" I brought the toggles more down to chest level, but an instructor said that probably would not have made a difference; it was more likely that they were lower winds that I was penetrating; I would have had to run it out due to the forward motion if I'd tried to stand it up, is what I am gathering there.

*Finally, yesterday, prepping for AFF-4 (release dive, my 5th jump total) I had a discussion with a staff member (I believe he is a coach but not an AFF-I; my DZ encourages us to seek info from coaches, other students, etc. before asking any questions of our AFF-Is; sort of a self-styled learning approach and then once that is all done you go to find your AFF-Is, go over the jump and any questions remaining, and final prep.

So he told me that it was not their intent to imply that all students should always be PLFing, and most landings are quite soft, in my experience and observation. I have also been observing other students the past few weekends, and while, as a mama and student, I have not done as many AFF levels as most of the students in my FJC, I have had the benefits of learning from them and watching them progress.. so watching others, I noticed that most of the other AFF students from my FJC generally do stand up or run out their landings.

I still am not 100% confident in the PLF technique (it really doesn't come naturally) nor my ability to recognize when one is needed, but it seems with the radios, size of canopies, etc. that most landings are pretty straightforward as a student. We (me and the coach/staffer) talked about how in higher wind/less penetration, that would be more likely a need for PLF because obviously coming straight down with little forward motion means that you have to balance out how your body absorbs that force, which makes sense to me. So I was thinking that I would be more aware of landings and run them out/stand when possible and keep my balance, and be aware of penetration/wind/etc. as an indicator of when a PLF might be needed. I also practiced my PLFs again yesterday prior to jumping.

Due to the weird winds and such we had a bit of an odd pattern and did some "crabbing" along the river, some practice flares under canopy, etc. but canopy flight was fine, and upon final approach into the wind, radio had me do some braking/stalling which I wasn't used to, but I think I was coming in too fast and needed to lose altitude, and then approaching, and I remember neck, and then next memory I have is my foot hitting and then falling onto the ground and trying to get up and couldn't and they said wave if you're okay and i put my arm up and they came over and took my shoe off and such and dealt with it, iced it, etc. and advised me that it could be either a sprain or a fracture and that i should get an x-ray that day or today to be sure. One of the coaches/staffers is a sports medicine practitioner, so she iced and bandaged it and asked me some questions and such. They were great about it and Alex called me today to check in and all..

I just have this vague memory of feeling panicky, like, I am too close to the ground, shouldn't I be fully flared? So I am trying to figure out if I flared fully, or if I was told to, or if the radio failed (but we have TWO in case one does fail!?), or the operator was talking to someone else and missed me (doubtful, they are all highly skilled at talking students down and there's not much time between neck and full flare) or if I somehow didn't pick up on them telling me to flare and didn't do it on my own (which would also be weird because I know you have to flare/brake to land, and remember the panicky fleeting feeling of, I am too close why am i not flared/braking, yk? But everyone who watched the jump and landing, talked me down etc. seemed to think it was nothing I did wrong or anyone else did, it was just the weird winds and also there was a slight uneven area there according to one of the AFF instructors who came to where I landed to help me out, so both factors or one or the other--gust of wind low to the ground could have put me at an angle, and/or the ground if uneven could have easily caught and twisted one foot before the other foot and my body came down on top.. well now I just got a FB message from another AFFer/friend who said he saw me land and that about 2 feet from the ground I was not flared.. so now I am second guessing the whole thing.. not in a blame way at all, just trying to make sure it doesn't happen again! I know that regardless I need to get comfortable enough with landings to know how to make relevant decisions, trust myself to flare (even if the radio failed or my mind blanked and didn't hear "flare" on the radio or whatever.. eventually I won't have a radio!) so maybe I need to work on the depth perception and landing.. I definitely want to get a canopy course and landing work in with a bunch of hop n pops at some point after AFF.. unfortunately now I am grounded for 6 weeks-- last time I jumped after an only 4 week hiatus (spring weather- always seems to be problematic on weekends and gorgeous all week, murphy's law damn him lol) but i got really nervous, i don't want that awful fear again, but i dealt with it so just gotta think positive.. and i know the tunnel training will hopefully give me some confidence even being away from jumping for awhile, and especially with my arch (see other thread, whole 'nother issue LOL) --btw, people think i'll be okay for tunnel training 15 minutes on june 4th, nearly 3 weeks from the injury?? i sure hope so.. seems like without an actual landing to concern myself with it should be okay, but will of course make sure with the coach and maybe with a doctor that it's alright, i don't want to further delay my return to jumping by overdoing it, but in some ways it seems it would be less strenuous on my bum foot/ankle than walking on it with a 25 lb toddler on my hip LOL..

Anyways, yeah- any input appreciated on AFF student landings, tips for landing, PLF, etc. based on my history or in general.. And how do you know when you want to do a PLF- would this case have helped if I had PLFed? As a recent article on here and plenty of posters point out, it just doesn't come very naturally- is it something I should practice more along with arch (on the ground) or is that a waste? Thanks for any feedback.

Finally, has anyone injured (sprain/strain/not a break) an ankle or something and had ongoing problems with jumping? Someone (whuffo, but he does coach other sports) said that once something's been injured like a bad sprain it is mire susceptible to other sprains or other injuries- could there be any truth to that?

Sorry so long! Well, sorta sorry. I warned you. Can always answer the top ones or skim it..

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

[NovaTTT 1]

Short answer: Talk to your instructors.

Long answer: Talk to your instructors because they will be able to review with you your landing pattern, tasks and goals. They will know your skills and needs, current weather conditions and will be the ones talking you down if you are on radio.

If you're not on radio and are unsure of your ability to judge your landings, you can ask to have radio assistance.

The good news is that it doesn't typically require a lot of thought to land well - no deep thinking. It requires planning, awareness and good timing. You'll learn the visual cues in time. Until then, use your best resources - your instructors.

Sorry about the ankle. Good luck.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

1. When I got to "Now long version/landing history;" in your post I thought "WTF... didn't I just read the long version?" I see I was quite wrong!!!

2. As you turn on final, be damned sure to assume your pre-PLF posture: ankles and knees together and knees and hips slightly bent. Doing this early on final ensures that it is done and allows you to concentrate on flying your canopy as you approach the ground... While maintaining a proper body (injury preventing) body position. This makes PLF natural and easy, as you are already in position. If you have a great stand up landing, this position won't cause you any trouble.

3. Finish your flare!!!!!

4. While healing go to DZ and watch tandems land.

5. Smile, breathe, relax.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[stratostar 5]

Always be planing to eat shit on every landing!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Fast 0]

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Always be planing to eat shit on every landing!

Yeah for sure. At my dz we teach all students to always be in PLF position for landing. A PLF landing can be just as soft as a stand up landing, but if it isn't at least you are less likely to be injured.

Interesting that it's encouraged that you seek advice from other students and non-insructional staff... we teach the opposite, students on AFF should only get advice from AFF instructors. I don't think that contributed to your problems at all though.

If you're having hard landings, you're doing something wrong, but I can't tell you what because I haven't seen you jump. I encourage you to do what the poster above said and speak with a qualified instructor about the issues you're having.

Other helpful tips are, do what the radio guy says, but know what to do if you think you're not getting radio commands. Your instructors can help you with knowing what to do. Also, ensure that you are NOT looking down at the ground between your feet when you are coming in to land. You should be looking out ahead of you watching where you are going. Straight on depth perception kicks in much too late to look down at the ground and see how high you are, you need to use different visual cues that you gain from looking out forward in the direction that you are flying.

My dz just got brand new student gear and after putting some jumps on it it reminded me why it's so easy to end up looking down too much at the ground. Just fight that urge and keep your eyes out more infront of you rather than straight down. Again, go over this subject with an instructor at your dropzone because your gear is different than mine and so are the things that you have already learned.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mdrejhon 8]

Wow. You're more wordy than I can be -- I've been known, in my day, to write massive amounts of text. (Back five years ago in 2005, berryfaq.com was one sprawling example.)

Anyway, I agree with the "listen to your instructors" advice.

My stance is always knees and feet together, slightly bent, even in good looking landings. That way, I am always prepared to "PLF" or "roll out" a really bad landing. Never reach out to the ground with my legs. Then if the parachute planes out successfully -- vertical velocity becomes zero and I am gliding horizontally above the ground -- then that's my cue that I can start preparing to run out the landing. As long as I don't reach my legs to the ground. Keep flying the parachute, keep flaring even when your feet contacts the ground. Resist the temptation to stretch your legs to reach the ground. Let the ground reach your feet instead. Keep your knees ever so slightly bent so you more easily automatically buckle into a PLF in unexpectedly bad landings that do not fully zero your vertical velocity. And if you plane out, keeping flying/flaring while you touch down or even perfect stand up landings, helps keep your balance better and also leads to less injuries too, and leads to a good habit for future landings.

I stand up nearly all my landings (also including all but one of my student jumps, but bear in mind I was wingloaded at 0.65 at first!).

You already know most of this from your instructor of course, depending on the training techniques they use, and what type of parachute they put you under, but it's good to put this in perspective about always being prepared to PLF and how to always be prepared.

Of course, any advice you hear on dz.com including from me, don't try independently, although you can bring it up with your instructor (who might, if he's a good instructor, explain exactly why a specific good or bad advice was given)

[airathanas 0]

Feet knees together. I still do that on every fun jump. I see a lot of fun jumpers coming in the land looking like the Cingular Man. "X" Just a pet peeve of mine I guess.

With tandems, that is another story

http://3ringnecklace.com/

[ridestrong 1]

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Always be planing to eat shit on every landing!

A PLF landing can be just as soft as a stand up landing,....

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[timmyfitz 0]

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My dz just got brand new student gear and after putting some jumps on it it reminded me why it's so easy to end up looking down too much at the ground.

Just have to ask...... Why does student gear make you "end up looking down to much at the ground"?

[mdrejhon 8]

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Just have to ask...... Why does student gear make you "end up looking down to much at the ground"?

Student parachutes have a lot less horizontal velocity. So even the reduced vertical speed is much more noticeable, and draws your attention more because you're not turf and surfing much.

[Fast 0]

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Just have to ask...... Why does student gear make you "end up looking down to much at the ground"?

Student parachutes have a lot less horizontal velocity. So even the reduced vertical speed is much more noticeable, and draws your attention more because you're not turf and surfing much.

Yeah pretty much. The decent rate is much more matched to the forward speed. It just draws your attention down more. I found myself having to "remember" to keep my eyes out in front of me. Some other people who have lots of jumps took a bit of adjusting to the student canopies from what they normally jump.

I guess it's just one of those things that I like to point out to other instructors because we often are so far detached from what it's actually like to fly student gear.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Baksteen 84]

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Always be planing to eat shit on every landing!

A PLF landing can be just as soft as a stand up landing,....

I agree.

Sometimes a PLF landing is a lot softer on you than a standup would have been.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Heatmiser 0]

Short answer, shit happens. I had this very thing happen to me this weekend. Ankle is healing. Why did it happen? I planted a foot instead of rolling. It'll heal. Youtube "taping a sprained ankle". It'll do wonders for ya Keep your feet together on landing next time!

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[mdrejhon 8]

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Always be planing to eat shit on every landing!

A PLF landing can be just as soft as a stand up landing,....

I agree.

Sometimes a PLF landing is a lot softer on you than a standup would have been.

True. On some of the Perris jumps the infernal, damned spot and my long floaty tracks away from the big ways formation, I kept landing in rough bush that was 2 to 3 foot tall, and I had to roll nearly every damned landing that day. (Bigway organizer Josh hurt his shoulder, near where I landed, and grounded himself for a while)

[shah269 0]

Please pardon me, I use to XC ski all the time when I live in NY.
And I always used Solomon XC boots due to comfort and the stability they provided my ankels
http://www.crosscountryskier.com.au/gear/closeouts/images/salomon_carbon_pro_ex-hire_s.jpg
Note the external structure.
And yes keeping toes heals and knees together is paramount but would such a technology be at all useful in this sport.
Just a question. Thanks

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Scrumpot 1]

LOL! ----Lookout. I think this one is advocating we bring back PARABOOTS! - EEK!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[ridestrong 1]

I suppose someone should tell you that while you should always be prepared to have a PLF you should actually be trying to stand up your landings every time you can.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[wmw999 2,123]

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trying to stand up your landings every time you can

The problem comes in the gap between one's judgment of when it's OK to stand up, and when it's really OK to stand up.

The newer you are, the larger the gap, and the better it is to roll out a landing that you might maybe could have stood up.

Personally, I think standup landings are overrated when compared with walk-away landings.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Baksteen 84]

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while you should always be prepared to have a PLF you should actually be trying to stand up your landings every time you can.

What's the importance of standing up landings?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Fast 0]

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I suppose someone should tell you that while you should always be prepared to have a PLF you should actually be trying to stand up your landings every time you can.

As an AFF instructor, I completely disagree with you. There is no reason to put such emphasis on standing a landing up. This is what in most cases leads to broken backs, sprained ankles and a myriad of other injuries. There is nothing wrong with doing a PLF landing. The only reason to stand up your landing is to try and look cool - and you don't look cool when you are being carried off in an ambulance.

Standing up landings comes in time with a greater understanding of how parachutes fly. Most people start to figure it out by jump 10-15 some take longer than that and some figure it out sooner but there should be no great emphasis placed on standing it up.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ridestrong 1]

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There is nothing wrong with doing a PLF landing. The only reason to stand up your landing is to try and look cool....

Your right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a PLF landing.

As far as, "The only reason to stand up your landing is to try and look cool"... is kind of a goofy statement. I can't speak for anyone else but I simply prefer standing up my landings rather than rolling around on the ground, but to each their own.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[mdrejhon 8]

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I suppose someone should tell you that while you should always be prepared to have a PLF you should actually maximize the safety of your landings.

Fixed it for ya. There's no problem trying to make the landing so safe that you are able to do pillow-soft stands most of the time, but safety is the priority that comes before trying to stand up a harder-than-usual landing.

[Waldschrat 0]

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LOL! ----Lookout. I think this one is advocating we bring back PARABOOTS! - EEK!

Pics or joke?

[Scrumpot 1]

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Pics or joke

Once a REQUIREMENT of the "modern sport skydiver" (pic 1) - now instead relegated and adapted to only the "modern urban jungle" use.

No Joke.

Blue Skies!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[popsjumper 2]

Re-read post 18 from Wendy and post 20 from Fast.

You sprained your ankle because you put too much pressure/weight on it on landing. A good PLF puts very little pressure on your feet/ankles.

PLF is your friend. At this point, IMHO you should be practicing PLFs every landing and only taking the stand-up IF it's absolutely, totally available to you. Hell, I advocate PLF even then and stay with it until you can PLF without having to think about the minute details of the procedure. It's going to come in mighty handy one of these days...not IF but WHEN.

Yes, you'll eventually learn proper flare time and techniques for stand-ups but you have just learned what can happen when you attempt the stand-up when you should have PLF'd.

Learning. practicing and developing good PLF technique should be your priority. If you haven't practiced it, you're not going to have that skill when you really, really need it.

Like Wendy, PLFs have saved me from many potential broken bones, I'm sure.

Now, yes..PRACTICE YOUR PLFs! On the ground AND under canopy at landing!


RE the radio:
The radio is a useful tool and at the same time, a crutch. Your job is to learn what to do, how to do it, and perform/practice on your own...without assistance. Radio dependence is NOT a good thing. Were you waiting for the flare command? What happens if it doesn't come or you don't hear it? See what I mean?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239