What happens if...

[skybytch 259]

What happens if someone who doesn't hold a USPA AFF rating is found to be doing AFF jumps with non-licensed, pre-Cat F students (in the US)?

[phoenixlpr 0]

On USPA or non-USPA dropzone?

[wrightskyguy 1]

Usually nothing. Is your mind just wandering, or do you have a specific instance in mind?

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[dule_savic 1]

if it's Chuck Norris, it's OK

[timmyfitz 0]

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What happens if someone who doesn't hold a USPA AFF rating is found to be doing AFF jumps with non-licensed, pre-Cat F students (in the US)?

My guess is that nothing would happen to the instructor. There are no FAA requirements to be licensed to teach.

What would or could the USPA do to the instructor or dropzone? No idea.

[djmarvin 2]

In the past USPA members who have done this have had their membership suspended and not eligible for ratings for awhile after their USPA membership is reinstated. USPA Group Member dropzones have had their group membership suspended for using non rated people on student jumps.

edited to strike above statement. It did not happen in the case I was thinking of, however it is possible based on:


From The SIM 2009-2010 pg. iii

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"B. The SIM and skydiving’s self-policing principle of regulation

Although USPA is a voluntary membership association with no regulatory power, USPA can suspend or revoke any USPA license, rating, award, appointment, or membership it issues, according to terms and conditions stated in the USPA Governance Manual. Compliance with the Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs) contained herein is mandatory for participation in USPA programs. The BSRs represent the commonly accepted standards for a reasonable level of safety."

From The SIM 2009-2010 pg. 6

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"E. Student skydivers

Note: All references to USPA instructional rating holders apply to higher rating holders in that training discipline.

1. General [E]
a. All student training programs must be conducted
under the direction and oversight of an appropriately
rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license."

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[skybytch 259]

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On USPA or non-USPA dropzone?

Doesn't matter. Assume this is a USPA member. USPA members are obliged to follow the BSR's regardless of whether the dz they jump at is a group member or not.

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Usually nothing.

Hm. Then why do most of us even bother to spend all that money getting ratings?

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In the past USPA members who have done this have had their membership suspended and not eligible for ratings for awhile after their USPA membership is reinstated.

Is that SOP or is it on a case by case basis? How long has it been since a USPA member has been disciplined in that way for jumping with students without a rating?

[BIGUN 1,073]

How much pre-Cat F are you talking? Can the holder of any Instructional license in any discipline still do Cat E?

EDIT:

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jumping with students without a rating?

After re-reading this far, my only comment is, "silliness."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Scrumpot 1]

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USPA Group Member dropzones have had their group membership suspended for using non rated people on student jumps.

Really?

Can you cite an instance, or instances of this to substantiate that?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 2,435]

>Then why do most of us even bother to spend all that money getting ratings?

Because it's easier to get a job as an instructor if you have a rating.

[Scrumpot 1]

Also, when you say rating, are you including coach ratings or (I think you said) instructor? Cat E's, cleared for "self-supervision" can be in-air supervised by a coach, according to the ISP, no? Then, on top of that - wasn't there some sort of recent waivers or waiver-ability to allow for D-License holders (with approval of local S&TA) to also have USPA "permission" to jump with Cat's E-A lic WITHOUT the need of even that (an actual coach rating) too?

BTW, not directed specifically at Bill - his post just happens to be the last, I am now replying in general to.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skybytch 259]

Assume that these are jumps that USPA says must be done by an appropriately rated instructor.

[Scrumpot 1]

I've received PM's citing instances, where under those conditions then - that indeed ratings (for those with ratings either involved or complicit) &/or memberships (USPA individual and group) have been pulled. Sounds like if you now have knowledge of, or are referring to specific, directly-citable (and therefore "reportable") incidences - then, you should report 'em. Or not. As however your own personal ethics and conscience might dictate.

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[skybytch 259]

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Sounds like if you now have knowledge of, or are referring to specific, directly-citable (and therefore "reportable") incidences - then, you should report 'em. Or not. As however your own personal ethics and conscience might dictate.

Which brings me to my next set of questions. I'm not an S&TA or a BOD member. Do I have a responsibility to report something like that if I have knowledge of it? If so, does that responsibility come from being a USPA member or from having a USPA instructional rating? If not, who is responsible for reporting such things?

While I may or may not be thinking of a particular incidence, that really has no bearing on my questions. I'm curious about what kind of "discipline" has happened in past and how evenly or unevenly those instances are handled (ie is every offender punished in the same way).

[AndyMan 7]

The only time I directly know of anyone having their rating suspended involved clear pictures of the violation, with a clear face-shot of the offender in the photo - being emailed out to many thousands of skydivers in a DZ ad-blitz. In that scenario, it was quite difficult to imagine the USPA doing anything other than revoking his ratings, which they did.

But short of clear proof essentially being handed to the USPA in the form of photo or video, as far as I know - nothing will ever become of it.

To me the message is clear - do anything you want, but don't get caught.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[airtwardo 6]

Which brings me to my next set of questions. I'm not an S&TA or a BOD member. Do I have a responsibility to report something like that if I have knowledge of it? If so, does that responsibility come from being a USPA member or from having a USPA instructional rating?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if and what any possible regs may suggest, but the ethical question is:

Where on the sliding scale of 'don't burn a buddy' & 'possibly prevent an incident' the person finds themselves.

I know what I would do, but that's not really the question is it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

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Which brings me to my next set of questions. I'm not an S&TA or a BOD member. Do I have a responsibility to report something like that if I have knowledge of it? If so, does that responsibility come from being a USPA member or from having a USPA instructional rating?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if and what any possible regs may suggest, but the ethical question is:

Where on the sliding scale of 'don't burn a buddy' & 'possibly prevent an incident' the person finds themselves.

I know what I would do, but that's not really the question is it.

Some more things to consider when deciding where on 'Twardo's "sliding scale" this goes:

How skilled is the non-rated "instructor"?

Does the student know the "instructor" is a fraud?

Is this an isolated incident or a regular occurence?


I see that responsibility coming from being a skydiver, not a USPA member.
We owe the students (who don't know what they are getting into or with whom) a fair chance at success. That includes properly maintained equipment (including the plane) and qualified people teaching them (including the pilot).

Compare it to a DZ using a non-rated pilot. That's a clear FAA violation and non-rated AFF instructors aren't.
But they're both wrong. And for the same reasons.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skyjumpenfool 2]

An alternative would be to go talk to the folks involved. It may be, remember, that you are not correct in your assumptions. It’s possible there’s information you’re not privy to. The best way to find out is to talk to the Horse… of Course.

If your right, get it on video! It'd be a great thread.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[BIGUN 1,073]

How much pre-Cat F are you talking? Can the holder of any Instructional license in any discipline still do Cat E?

EDIT: ENHANCED TO CLARIFY

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jumping with students without a rating?

After re-reading this far, my only comment is, "silliness" when one takes a student on a skydive without the appropriate rating. It's a danger to the student and could result in a major civil or criminal action, Does one really want to stand in front of a jury and say.... "No, I don't hold an Instructor's rating from any recognized organization or association."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jumpwally 0]

and also stand in front of a jury and say " yes, i knew it was going on " and "yes, i did nothing "......

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[ufk22 32]

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Sounds like if you now have knowledge of, or are referring to specific, directly-citable (and therefore "reportable") incidences - then, you should report 'em. Or not. As however your own personal ethics and conscience might dictate.

Which brings me to my next set of questions. I'm not an S&TA or a BOD member. Do I have a responsibility to report something like that if I have knowledge of it? If so, does that responsibility come from being a USPA member or from having a USPA instructional rating? If not, who is responsible for reporting such things?

While I may or may not be thinking of a particular incidence, that really has no bearing on my questions. I'm curious about what kind of "discipline" has happened in past and how evenly or unevenly those instances are handled (ie is every offender punished in the same way).

If you have to ask..........
If what your concerned about is personal liability, as a jumper, you should know whether this is wrong, as an experienced jumper, you should really know, as a USPA rating holder, you must have (during your rating course) proven that you know. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.
To me, a better question might be "how would you deal with this if the student had been your child"?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[airtwardo 6]

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To me, a better question might be "how would you deal with this if the student had been your child"?

I gotta lotta kids...but only have ONE home dropzone!


If my DZ were to get shut down for turning a blind eye to something like this...I'd have too much spare time & probably end up having MORE kids!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[regulator 0]

Jim,

Its still possible to procreate at your age...?

and by your age I mean 21

(just saying that cause I'd hate to get my ass kicked by an old fucker the next time I come out to the dz)

[skybytch 259]

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To me, a better question might be "how would you deal with this if the student had been your child"?

Good question. How would you deal with this if that student was your child?

More to the point of my original question, how would you deal with this if the unrated instructor was your child?

So far, I've determined that USPA has no SOP for dealing with unrated jumpers doing instructional jumps. It's all on a case by case basis. I've heard of "punishments" ranging from nothing at all to writing a letter of apology to revocation of ratings/membership - and the higher levels of punishment are rarely imposed. All for the same basic offense.

This is counterproductive in more ways than one. Why should I report someone else to USPA and risk being ostracized by my "family" if common knowledge is that nothing substantial will happen to the person being reported? If common knowledge that punishment is not likely is correct, what incentive do I have to follow the BSR's?

Should USPA develop and implement SOP's for handling BSR violations?

[popsjumper 2]

I have nothing extra to offer on your OP that hasn't alreadybeen said. I do However, want to comment rant on this:

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Why should I report someone else to USPA and risk being ostracized by my "family"

Those who would ostracize you need a good ass-whuppin'. These are the idiots who routinely snub noses at safety issues.....speak up and you'll out them so we'll ALL know who the idiots are.

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Should USPA develop and implement SOP's for handling BSR violations?

YES.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239