Another reason not to listen to AFF instructors...

[ManagingPrime 0]

I thought the subject would get a few views.

My first AFF yesterday resulted in an off site landing. There was some mis-communication on the radio and the wrong person (me) was told to make 90 degree turns...resulting in a position at 2K that would not allow me to make it back to the DZ. I managed to make it into someones back yard and did an OK PLF. No injuries and all's well that ends well.

I'm glad I did not get spooked out of the sport, but it did get me thinking. I could have been seriously injured or even killed and while I credit 90% of my lack of injury to the great ground training i received I feel there was a luck component.

There were some lessons to be learned. The one that really stuck out for me was that I should have trusted my intuition/gut. At a point (when I could have acted and made it back) I suspected there was a mis-communication and that I should disregard the instructions I was being given and stayed in my holding spot....this was confirmed by a few instructors and it's a lesson I will not forget.

I've also been thinking about injury rates. At some point in time I know it's going to happen, if only a small sprain. I'm going to try and never be injured, but what is realistic?

There does not seem to be statistics published (at least none that I can find) and I would be a little leery as I've been told that the fatality rate is "only" about 1 in a million and I've also been told that it's about 1 in 100,000. I suspect these numbers are extrapolated at the time of computation based off the number of licensed jumpers and not the actual number of jumps in any given year (please correct me if I am wrong).

One student on this board has been injured a couple of times in their training. What's to be expected?

Sorry for the wordiness.... I figured this question was best directed at the forum instead of my instructors.

[theonlyski 3]

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this was confirmed by a few instructors and it's a lesson I will not forget.

Nope, probably not! I remember my off landing. Winds kicked up after we took off, and on the entire ride to alt, I was under a Navigator 240 weighing about 190 out the door. Opened up, checked my ground speed... yup, going backwards.

Radio didn't work (distance maybe?) I saw I was backing up into some trees behind me and my best outs were straight down and to the left... I spiraled down to burn off some alt, got it back into the wind and landed just right, then got yanked back by the canopy.

Cleared the trees by a few hundred feet though

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I've also been thinking about injury rates. At some point in time I know it's going to happen, if only a small sprain. I'm going to try and never be injured, but what is realistic?

There does not seem to be statistics published (at least none that I can find) and I would be a little leery as I've been told that the fatality rate is "only" about 1 in a million and I've also been told that it's about 1 in 100,000. I suspect these numbers are extrapolated at the time of computation based off the number of licensed jumpers and not the actual number of jumps in any given year (please correct me if I am wrong).

One student on this board has been injured a couple of times in their training. What's to be expected?

Sorry for the wordiness.... I figured this question was best directed at the forum instead of my instructors.

Sometimes shit happens. MANY injuries that I've seen recently (on here anyways) were under good canopies when someone impacted the ground in a high speed dive.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Dittodogg 0]

I don't think this is the sport for you. 2nd thread started by you complaining about your training.

Not to be a dick, but you are sounding kind of high maintenance. But what do I know, Im just a pissant!

Team Dirty Sanchez #455,
Muff Brother #4197,
SCR #14847, DPH -8,
Dude #5150

[skydude2000 3]

Hi there,

First of all, congrats on your safe landing. Second,
this

Quote

Sorry for the wordiness.... I figured this question was best directed at the forum instead of my instructors.

is not the best idea, this early in your progression. Listen to people who know you, who have taught you, and seen you fly and land a parachute.

Third, be mindful of the instructions you receive on the radio, but no matter what, it's you up there, not them. They may not always be able to see the pond they're flying you over, the trees you're heading toward, or that fence you're about to land behind.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't trust them, but you should THINK, and be planning where you want to land in every phase of your jump.

Injuries are a part of the sport, we all do our best to avoid them, which is why we say listen to your instructors. They will teach you how to keep yourself alive and injury free.

But in the end, it's all up to you.

Good luck!!

PULL!! or DIE!!

[Inspired 0]

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I don't think this is the sport for you. 2nd thread started by you complaining about your training.

Not to be a dick, but you are sounding kind of high maintenance. But what do I know, Im just a pissant!

Or maybe his instructors really suck. I'm not saying that they do, but it certainly doesn't hurt to get some opinions from more experienced jumpers.

[sffudapparel 0]

if you listened to your instructors you would have heard them say "the radio is a back up device ONLY."

Just bustin your chops, but I know your instructors are good (I'm from Cincy), and unfortunately, that isn't the first time this has happened at Start or any other dropzone.

Dream my life, live my dream

[AndyMan 7]

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I thought the subject would get a few views.

More than that, the thread title is enough for me to say- if I was one of your instructors, you wouldn't be jumping with me anymore.

Sure, radio's fail, and I advise every one of my students that they have the right to decide that the radio is on the wrong channel, or to decide that I'm confused and am talking to the wrong student. It's a whole different thing to say that you will not listen to your instructor.

In a lot of years of skydiving, I've never given up on a student. But man, tell me that you won't even listen to me? That's a great way to get another instructor. Keep posting threads like this, and you'll find yourself short of instructors willing to jump with you.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MorfiusX 0]

When going through the FJC, I was told "first we are going to teach you how to land, but we will have the radio to help you out". When under canopy, I was told to kick may feat to make sure I could hear my instructor.

I still made a few minor mistakes (missed my first legs out hand signal, instructor hand to say hands up a couple times under canopy), but I attribute that to me being a student. We know going into this that their risk involved, and there is always a learning curve for everything.

So you have to ask yourself "what did I learn from this?" My answer would be: remember your training. Specifically, remember your landing patterns. During the entire jump, I was repeating the steps out loud to myself. For the landing, here is what I was saying out loud to myself:
- where am I at
- where is the wind
- turn left and right until 1000
- downwind till 600
- left turn
- etc...

Hope that helps.

[timmyfitz 0]

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I don't think this is the sport for you. 2nd thread started by you complaining about your training.

Not to be a dick, but

To late.

[liftedtitan 0]

you had an off landing!? oh my!

Seriously, its bound to happen more than once in your skdiving life. You were not hurt, lesson learned. Don't blame your instructors. If you think you know more than them, next jump just pull the radio off and throw it. Better yet, kick and punch them before exit and just jump by yourself lol.

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[skybytch 259]

Radios, like RSL's and AAD's, are backup safety devices. Backup mechanical and electronic safety devices can and do fail to operate as designed/intended. Instructors, like all human beings, can and do make mistakes. That's why you signed the waiver. Relying upon backup safety devices and/or human beings to keep YOU safe and alive is not the hot tip, as you may have just learned.

Re: injury rates. Yes, you might get hurt. If you aren't okay with that, there are many wonderful things you can do and sports that you can participate in that don't involve quite as much risk of injury.

Don't want to get hurt? Good PLFs. Learn to flare properly and PRACTICE it in the air. Stay conservative with your gear selection. And.... listen to your instructors.

[Psychonaut 0]

I had my radio for my first jump.
After that, my instructor "forgot" to turn them on in the plane.

Liked it better that way.
I've seen some people RELY on these things.
You shouldn't even need it. Remember ground school? Remember the landing pattern, tips and tricks you were taught? Oh yeah. You should know how to do it.
Maybe you don't like the canopy flight chapter of the skydive (you're insane..) but, the sport just might not be for you.

My suggestion would be to stop running home and posting your troubles on the internet. If you can't hang around the DZ and bring these discussions up with your intructors and staff, you aren't going to have many friends.

Stay high pull low

[DougH 270]

You were taught in your first jump course how to fly a landing pattern and land in a safe area.

Your jumping, your the one who might get hurt, so get yourself down safe.

You may hurt yourself a little, your may cripple yourself for life, you may die, or you may only get at worse bumps and bruises over a very very long time in the sport.

What probability for each scenario can you live with?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[sandi 0]

I've landed off lots of times. Not a big deal. As a student I was 105 pounds jumping a 240 sq. ft. canopy, so extremely low wing loading (that was the smallest student gear they had). If I wasn't over the dz or really, really close I was not going to get there. My instructor taught me that the most important thing is to land safely, not to get back to the dropzone. We spent a lot of time talking about off landings (since there was a high probabilty I would have some). So my guidelines for landing off are 1) if you are not 100% sure you can make it to the dz don't just try to make it and hope for the best and 2) the higher you make that decision the better, then you have more time to choose a suitable landing place, get there, and set up your landing pattern. I never had a radio, but I had amazing instructors.

The only time I've been injured skydiving was when I had to land off at an unfamiliar dz where I didn't know the outs. I wasn't 100% sure I could make it back but I tried anyway. Resulted in landing in a not ideal area and a not ideal landing. Fortunately not a serious injury, just a lot of swelling and bruising.

Later when I started jumping at Perris I never landed off since the pilot goes around twice (and I was no longer jumping an enormous canopy).

Good luck with your training and enjoy the sky!!

[pchapman 261]

I'm not of the type to say, "How dare you ask questions? You're insulting the sport! Die like a man! You signed the waiver!".

As for radio instruction, is tough for a student to make decisions based on little experience. Almost all the time you do want to listen to radio instructors. But still you can be ready to realize when they don't see what you see, that you have to make a decision to save yourself based on your training, not what you hear over the speaker.

Fatality rates? Very roughly 1 in 100,000 jumps. Stats are only stats; so not doing something dumb helps keep you in the 999,999 category.

Injuries? Who knows. Maybe something minor like a sprain every couple hundred jumps?

[Liemberg 0]

Then again, examples of 'How NOT to teach skydiving...' are all over the internet today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kfPrW9olbM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_be7Rr-pUs&feature=related

The rules are very simple "my young Grashopper", while the other guys and girls teaching you to skydive & survive don't claim sainthood in any way, but know that you have to have trust in people if you are willing to jump with them or with gear supervised by them, it is entirely up to you... they don't particularly give a crap if you gave the DZO a fistful of dollars ("Good luck getting THAT back") they will be working their asses of to bring your precious body in one piece back to the ground, just out of professional courtesy and like all humans, sometimes they F.U.

There's a angry mob of greedy lawyers waiting for that to happen.



Then again, in the first 'Innumeracy is a bitch' episode, the TI leaving the plane with the passenger only attached to lowers, in the final analysis he acted in such a way as the situation required and saved the day he was so busy spoiling...

+ 1 as we say, nowadays.

I don't know if it is appropriate in this thread but I want to take the opportunity to thank all my instructors publicly. They usually bring out the best in people...(I know they would prefer a raise.. )



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_keqC7S-o4


(edited to say that the video was less spectacular than I at first thought. Seen another one like that before. There IS something to say however for 'you have four hooks and I have two parachutes, I wouldn't leave the plane if I were you if I wasn't fully convinced that all for hooks were connected.' )

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

There's a angry mob of greedy lawyers waiting for that to happen.

Angry?

[skydiverkeith 1]

Quote

Quote

There's a angry mob of greedy lawyers waiting for that to happen.

Angry?

Example: Andy9o8

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[dnb 0]

Quote

I thought the subject would get a few views.

My first AFF yesterday resulted in an off site landing. There was some mis-communication on the radio and the wrong person (me) was told to make 90 degree turns...resulting in a position at 2K that would not allow me to make it back to the DZ. I managed to make it into someones back yard and did an OK PLF. No injuries and all's well that ends well.

I'm glad I did not get spooked out of the sport, but it did get me thinking. I could have been seriously injured or even killed and while I credit 90% of my lack of injury to the great ground training i received I feel there was a luck component.

There were some lessons to be learned. The one that really stuck out for me was that I should have trusted my intuition/gut. At a point (when I could have acted and made it back) I suspected there was a mis-communication and that I should disregard the instructions I was being given and stayed in my holding spot....this was confirmed by a few instructors and it's a lesson I will not forget.

I've also been thinking about injury rates. At some point in time I know it's going to happen, if only a small sprain. I'm going to try and never be injured, but what is realistic?

There does not seem to be statistics published (at least none that I can find) and I would be a little leery as I've been told that the fatality rate is "only" about 1 in a million and I've also been told that it's about 1 in 100,000. I suspect these numbers are extrapolated at the time of computation based off the number of licensed jumpers and not the actual number of jumps in any given year (please correct me if I am wrong).

One student on this board has been injured a couple of times in their training. What's to be expected?

Sorry for the wordiness.... I figured this question was best directed at the forum instead of my instructors.

Dude.... Seriously.

Im not sure where you jump, but I know when I was a student at my DZ it was not uncommon for there to be 4 or more students on the same load. Generally speaking, we all looked similar from the ground (student jumpsuits, canopies, etc). Actually, the instructors told us that if we thought they were calling commands to the wrong person, to disregard and fly the pattern as planned. And yes, on a couple of my jumps, they got me confused with another jumper and gave instructions that did not really apply to me at the time. But this was easy to figure out, and I simply flew a safe pattern as planned and landed safely.

Take some responsibility for flying your canopy safely and dont decide to NOT listen to your instructors who are only trying to help you learn and stay safe.

drew

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

I had my radio for my first jump.
After that, my instructor "forgot" to turn them on in the plane.

Liked it better that way.
I've seen some people RELY on these things.
You shouldn't even need it. Remember ground school? Remember the landing pattern, tips and tricks you were taught? Oh yeah. You should know how to do it.
Maybe you don't like the canopy flight chapter of the skydive (you're insane..) but, the sport just might not be for you.

Yous got MaDz Skills man.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Wow. This thread did get a lot of views! Busy day yesterday repeating my C2 and doing D1...so, I'm just getting back.

It sucks that any parts of my post were taken as a slight against any of my instructors. They've been awesome. My ground instructor saw the thread and mentioned what has been mentioned before... the radio is a back up. I've learned this lesson. I think I've learned the lessons needed from the off site landing. Perhaps I still need to learn a few lessons regarding posting online. I'm reminded that written communication is not always received as intended.

That said, while the first part of my post was intended to give some context and levity (FAIL. LOL)...my interest was in injury rates and how those statistics (if any) are compiled. I'm kind of a geek like that. I don't know that it's pertinent to my training at all (that's why I thought it was not best directed at instructors), it's just a number I was interested in looking at...as mentioned, I'm kind of a numbers geek like that.

All that said, I think I'm going to go hide from the angry mob now.

Cat D2 in a few!

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

I don't think this is the sport for you. 2nd thread started by you complaining about your training.

Not to be a dick, but you are sounding kind of high maintenance. But what do I know, Im just a pissant!

Or maybe his instructors really suck. I'm not saying that they do, but it certainly doesn't hurt to get some opinions from more experienced jumpers.

Then again there are TWO sides to every story...just sayin'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JohnnyMarko 1]

You really shouldnt be jumping a camera with less than 200 jumps....

[Hayden 0]

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Re: injury rates. Yes, you might get hurt. If you aren't okay with that, there are many wonderful things you can do and sports that you can participate in that don't involve quite as much risk of injury.

I think some of you guys are coming down a little hard on the guy. Anyone new to the sport should do due diligence and ask questions -- especially in an extreme sport like this. I'm completely new to skydiving and I've decided I love it and want to continue on with AFF, but I've asked the same kinds of questions too. I've even been curious about the stats around accidents and fatalities. I have a husband and son to think about.

Remember, respect and trust are earned. It's not a given, nor should it be when it comes to handing someone over your life

[airtwardo 6]

Remember, respect and trust is earned. It's not a given, nor should it be when it comes to handing someone over your life

Ever fly in a commerical jet?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~