Another reason not to listen to AFF instructors...

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I think some of you guys are coming down a little hard on the guy.

Really? Telling someone that if they don't want to get hurt, skydiving might not be for them is coming down hard? Should we wait until they watch someone else get hurt or die, or maybe until they get hurt? Either one is much harsher, I'd think.

If you skydive long enough, you are going to get hurt. Could be a sprained ankle or femur from a botched landing, could be a concussion from a bad exit, could just be scrapes and bruises. It could be your fault, could be someone else's fault, could be nobody's fault. If your "real life" is such that you absolutely can not get hurt (career, family, whatever), you might want to postpone skydiving until such time as your life can allow for a few weeks spent on crutches. That's not coming down hard, that's talking about reality.

[skygnat 0]

The same thing happened to me on my third jump as what happened to OP.

After making my base leg turn on my landing pattern, my instructor was radioing me to "turn left turn left", and sounded angry even though I was turning. After doing a 270, and with the ground closer, I made the decision to disregard the radio, make no more turns, and beeline downwind to a bumpy landing.

Turns out my instructor was looking at the wrong canopy.

So I accept shit happens, and the person under the canopy is the pilot in command of his own aircraft, and his own life. I made the call to disregard the radio, but I did not do so right away as I should have, since there was no logical reason to turn in the first place.

But the point here is not that I was just a dumbass who learned from a mistake, but that worst case scenario is a mistake like this could be ugly, regardless of who was at fault.

Given there appears to be some regularity (even if minor) to this type of error occurring, the odds are one of these days a worst case will happen... if it already has not. I think I recall an incident awhile back where a student corkscrewed himself into the ground, and no one could understand why. Kinda makes one wonder... Not suggesting this was the cause here, but it is a possible outcome of a radio error such as this.

[Hayden 0]

Quote

Quote

I think some of you guys are coming down a little hard on the guy.

Really? Telling someone that if they don't want to get hurt, skydiving might not be for them is coming down hard? Should we wait until they watch someone else get hurt or die, or maybe until they get hurt? Either one is much harsher, I'd think.

If you skydive long enough, you are going to get hurt. Could be a sprained ankle or femur from a botched landing, could be a concussion from a bad exit, could just be scrapes and bruises. It could be your fault, could be someone else's fault, could be nobody's fault. If your "real life" is such that you absolutely can not get hurt (career, family, whatever), you might want to postpone skydiving until such time as your life can allow for a few weeks spent on crutches. That's not coming down hard, that's talking about reality.

Yes, but you'd have to be a moron not to recognize that you may get hurt. He, and everyone else who skydives, is well aware of that fact.

What exactly are you teaching or trying to get across by pointing out the obvious? If he weren't aware, he wouldn't have asked.

Might want to give your ego a one-over and figure out where you're coming from. These threads are meant to help people out when they ask for advice -- not to tell them to find another hobby just because you didn't like their question.

[popsjumper 2]

Well, I guess YOU'VE been told!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I think some of you guys are coming down a little hard on the guy.

Really? Telling someone that if they don't want to get hurt, skydiving might not be for them is coming down hard? Should we wait until they watch someone else get hurt or die, or maybe until they get hurt? Either one is much harsher, I'd think.

If you skydive long enough, you are going to get hurt. Could be a sprained ankle or femur from a botched landing, could be a concussion from a bad exit, could just be scrapes and bruises. It could be your fault, could be someone else's fault, could be nobody's fault. If your "real life" is such that you absolutely can not get hurt (career, family, whatever), you might want to postpone skydiving until such time as your life can allow for a few weeks spent on crutches. That's not coming down hard, that's talking about reality.

Yes, but you'd have to be a moron not to recognize that you may get hurt. He, and everyone else who skydives, is well aware of that fact.

What exactly are you teaching or trying to get across by pointing out the obvious? If he weren't aware, he wouldn't have asked.

Might want to give your ego a one-over and figure out where you're coming from. These threads are meant to help people out when they ask for advice -- not to tell them to find another hobby just because you didn't like their question.

Yep.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

He, and everyone else who skydives, is well aware of that fact.

Are we? I sometimes wonder.

[billvon 2,400]

>Yes, but you'd have to be a moron not to recognize that you may get hurt.

There are some people in skydiving who do not recognize they can get hurt. I've taught a few of them.

>Might want to give your ego a one-over and figure out where you're
>coming from.

Probably the same place I am (and a lot of people are.) Skydiving is dangerous. You can get killed due to your own incapacity. You might kill someone else due to your carelessness. Some people are more likely to kill other people.

Now, you can certainly say that with nicer words, use pictures, get in touch with their feelings etc. But at the end of the day jumpers have to understand that, and some don't. The ones that don't should either learn that about skydiving or find a hobby where they are not forced to learn unpleasant things (or worse, endure some very unpleasant things.)

>These threads are meant to help people out when they ask for advice -- not
>to tell them to find another hobby just because you didn't like their
>question.

Agreed. But there's a flip side to that. When people ask for advice, they may not get the answer they liked. All too often, jumpers get on here not for illumination of a troublesome question but for support for a questionable decision they have already made. Those people may get offended when people tell them in no uncertain terms that they are wrong. That's not doing them a disservice - indeed, that may just save their lives so that, one day, a newbie can get mad at _him_ for giving the same advice that he once scoffed at.

(We have drifted somewhat far away from the original post, and the above was not meant as a reply to the original poster.)

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

(We have drifted somewhat far away from the original post, and the above was not meant as a reply to the original poster.)

Indeed. LOL

My knee jerk reaction was to take a bit of offense to some posts, but I thought about it and it's all good. Just as in the case of the off landing I think it's mis-communication.

I understand that I can...and most likely will at some point sustain an injury in this sport. I just was curious about the statistics because of my "luck"...first tandem had uncontrolled (and unexplained) spin with line twists....first solo was off site. I figure if I know the stats, know why people are being injured and try to avoid those situations (if I can) it will put injury into perspective for me.

The ignore your instructor part was to get some views and was meant as a joke. Maybe some people did not read it that way and if that's the case I can't blame them coming down hard on me for the benefit of other new people to the sport who might also read my thread the wrong way.


Yes, there was mis-communication with my instructor and these things happen...disregarding that instructors radio communcation would not be disregarding my instruction as it was pointed out from the start that the radio is there for backup. I should have stayed in my holding area.

For four days straight I trusted my instructors with my life and tried my best to follow all of their instructions. Passed my E's yesterday and now my safety is squarely in my own hands.

If anyone was offended by my approach to the subject of injuries I appologize, but I don't think I'm going to quit this sport and take up bowling anytime soon.

While the thread drifted from what I was looking for in the original post I do appreciate all the replies...there is definatly food for thought withing the thread.

Blue Skies.

[Fast 0]

I have had a hard time deciding what my opinion about this is. As an AFF instructor I have seen some people do some really dumb shit and the only reason they got away with it is because we were there to help them.

I am not sure where to draw the line between telling someone to disregard what I'm saying if they think they know better. How can they know better? (really, it's a question not sarcasm) I have thousands of jumps and have radio'd quite a few students to the ground safely. I have also watched a lot of people disregard or not follow directions and end up in really bad situations.

I have also watched (and made a few) mistakes happen in terms of radio commands given. So, clearly it's possible for that to be the case. At least for me, I have a pretty good idea of when "I can't help this person anymore" and I will tell them so. "I am no longer in a position to help you on the radio, find somewhere safe to land in half brakes with a good PLF." Then they are on their own.

If I haven't said something to that effect, i really would rather have them follow my instructions no matter how dumb they think they are. It happened with a student just recently that the radio operator was giving a command and the student disagreed with it and almost was hurt. If he would have followed the command to the T he would have been ok, but he decided that the instructor was nuts and did his own thing.

Who's fault is it then?

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

Who's fault is it then?

I can't speak with any authority as a skydiver, but I don't think there is any fault. Personally, I made the wrong decision by not listening to my gut..and my ground instruction regarding radio use and how could my instructor be faulted? There were at least two of the same canopies in the sky and someone else was making turns that matched his instructions.

While I don't feel there is any fault to be found...I do think there could be procedures established to avoid this kind of incident. I'm just really happy to have walked away with a few lessons and some valuable experience.

Here's an example (not nearly as extreme): On saturday I should have been doing rear riser work on a jump. I felt I was two far from the holding area to get in any of the turns and make it back. I did some 45's (already felt I was long) with my toggles and made a B-Line for the downwind entry point. I hit downwind leg just at 1K feet. I did not know how much altitude the rear riser turns would bleed and I did not want to find out...I really did not want to land in the river I was looking at.

I did not follow the dive plan, knowingly. I did know that I could make it into the pattern If I kept on a straight heading. I did not know if I would make it back if I worked my rear risers. I made a choice based on my gut...not what I knew. I was comfortable with that choice....but I felt a bit...sheepish...disobedient...what have you, when I explained the situation, but I did not end up in the river...sooo...I don't know. I got differing opinions...after a lot experience I may actually have a knowledgeable one of my own.

[Scubadivemaster 3]

You seem to be asking a serious question about minor injuries, bumps, bruises and sprains. Despite the distracting and irrelevant title and account of your radio miscommunication, I think that it is a fair question.

In general, your first few jumps are more likely to produce some bruises and sprains than your future jumps will. You are more likely to land off, not land into the wind, not flair correctly at the correct height, etc until you get the basics down. While only a very few are seriously injured while on student status and on their first 25 jumps, I would advise you to expect some minor injuries (those requiring no or very limited medical attention). I would say that most skydivers incur a minor injury that requires at least a healthy dose of ibuprofen at least occasionally when starting out.

Somewhere around 100 jumps, there is another spike in injuries. As one get more comfortable, one may neglect some of the basics or push his limits a little too fast/far. A lot of more significant injuries seem to occur around this time. A lot of us got a wake up call from a good bounce somewhere around 100 jumps and spent at least a few weekends on the ground watching others jump while we worked the kinks out of our back/arm/leg/butt/etc.

After that, I think the risk of minor injuries diminishes until you try to add a new discipline, be it wingsuits, high performance landings, classic accuracy, etc. Then, you become a student again and your risk goes back up.

All this is addressed at minor injuries. Fatalities and major injuries and their frequency have been parsed numerous times and can be viewed by age, license, experience, sex, etc in old issues of Parachutist, and are well worth studying so see where the statistical spikes occur.

Finally, a note on DZ.com: Three good rules to keep from looking foolish now and feeling foolish later on in your skydiving career: 1. Limit yourself to one post or less per jump you log, 2. Until you have some years in the sport or a few hundred jumps, post only questions, not statements or opinions, and 3. No matter how tempted you are, never post in the Incidents Forum unless your post contains all of the information available, firsthand, and you are 100% sure of everything you are posting or you are the designated representative of the DZ where the incident occurred. Post whoring in the Incident Forum is tacky and cheap, and will alienate you from people you haven't met yet, but certainly will.

See you in the skies over Ohio soon.

Steve

[ManagingPrime 0]

Thank you Steve. You helped answer my question and reinforced my recent realizations regarding DZ.com

[popsjumper 2]

It saddens me that you put your thread title so much in the negative.

It could have been more in the positive. For example:
Another reason to take responsibility for your own canopy flight and landing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

It saddens me that you put your thread title so much in the negative.

It could have been more in the positive. For example:
Another reason to take responsibility for your own canopy flight and landing.

Ouch!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisRomp 0]

For my first AFF landing, the field was muddy in the center from recent rains so I was wanting to land closer to the road (still about 20' away), which was to my left on final. The instructor was facing toward my approach from another field and calling out "left, left, left" over the radio. As soon as I touched down he said "I mean right." :P

I knew what he meant, and common sense (and a strong desire to stay dry) told me not to go left.

Common sense > radio. :)

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

It saddens me that you put your thread title so much in the negative.

It could have been more in the positive. For example:
Another reason to take responsibility for your own canopy flight and landing.

Ok. Ok....I deserved that one and probably have a few more coming. Anyone else want to take a shot?

[jclalor 12]

15 jumps and still on a radio? WTF

[stratostar 5]

Well what do you expect, he don't listen to his instructors.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Well what do you expect, he don't listen to his instructors.

Not always a bad thing:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3136585;search_string=45%20instructor;#3136585

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

15 jumps and still on a radio? WTF

The original post about a week ago was my first AFF jump. I've had busy weekends since then.

In that time I managed to learn the following:

1. Always listen to my instructors: When conflicting information is presented default to the safest decision as dictated by common sense and previous training.
2. Always try to get hot girls phone numbers if you land off site.
3. Don't make jokes on the DZ.com forums that can be misconstrued.
4. Try to keep DZ.com post counts under your jump count (think this will be my last post this week).

All-in-all, I think I've made some progress in the last week in regards to keeping safe and keeping DZ.com communications limited so that I don't build a reputation as a stupid prick in the skydiving community.

[stratostar 5]

I know John, just yanking the OP's chain.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mrbiceps 0]

I suppose not everyone is perfect and instructors do stuff up and make mistakes and unfortunately when they do students get injured. I unfortunately had an instructor for my aff 2 jump who was really an arrogant wanker. I had seen him doing ground school with a bunch of nervous students and was yelling at them if they messed up their climb out procedures. He was the type of person who is deffinitely not a people person. I was very glad that i had a legend of a guy for my ground training who i later on taught to scuba dive and am now good friends with. He took me on my aff 1 jump and i had a blast. I wasn't that thrilled to get this other guy for my second jump but was keen to jump so off we went. After copping some of his abuse on the ground we boarded and i was going over the jump and thought i had it all sorted out. I told him that i had the jump plan down good but was a bit unsure about what to do under canopy, as my first jump i had been told to wait for the instructors instructions through the radio. Of course he shot me down and told me this was not the time to be asking questions. I ended up landing off and he asked me why and i told him that if he had answered my question on the plane we wouldnt be walking back from some farmers paddock would we. That was the first and last time i jumper with that asshole. Although his wife was a very nice lady and taught me how to pack which i was very grateful for and brought her some alcohol.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

my first jump i had been told to wait for the instructors instructions through the radio.

Your 1st jump you were told to:
"wait for the instructors instruction through the radio"

And you think this was good instruction?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[BASE841 3]

Corollary to #3:
Don't make jokes on the DZ.com forums that can be misconstrued.
(...and they ALL will be misconstrued.)

Keep up the good work in the sky, and we look forward to seeing you back at the DZ.

David

[Master_Yoda 0]

Quote

15 jumps and still on a radio? WTF

Interesting. I would have thought that folks getting CP coaching would have most of their jumps with a radio, even through the higher levels of training.
Hmm... shows what I know.