New Wings PC Hessitation

[Jumpmunki 0]

hi guys, i've just gotten my new wings contain (cut for a 135) and have put my 150 sabre2 in it it's a tight fit...

on a hop and pop from 5k the other day i dumped out the door (cessna 182) and my P/C was in tow for about 5 seconds, as i was about to initiate my e/p's the bag popped out and then the canopy snivelled for what seamed to be days...

the issue i have is, i'm wondering

alot of people have said that wings are "rubbish sub terminal"

does anyone have any feedback for me on why this statement is true?

i have lenthened the closing loop by and inch to stop it from being so tight.

she is very hard to close, is this because it's new and needs to break in?

thanks guys

Wayne

[masterrig 1]

I don't understand why, you would order a harness-container sized for a 135 when you knew you were going to put a 150 in it. I don't believe, any amount of 'break-in' will help the situation.
As for "rubbish sub terminal", I've never heard that. The Wings, is a very well made harness-container. I think, your problem is mis-sizing of your harness-container in relation to the size parachute. I'll bet, you put in the parachute that container was sized for and it'll work just fine.


Chuck

[ianmdrennan 2]

I've experienced significant delays on hop and pops with my container (not a wings) when the bridal has been too short and the pilot chute too small (24").

What size is your PC?

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[gus 1]

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alot of people have said that wings are "rubbish sub terminal"

I've never heard that. What would make a container "rubbish sub terminal"? I have a number of sub terminal jumps on my wings and have had no problems.

There are serveral other factors that could have produced your odd opening. Was the pc definately fully cocked? Did you give the pc a good throw? Did you look over your shoulder and actually see it in tow?

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she is very hard to close, is this because it's new and needs to break in?

When I got my Wings it was so tight that I was convinced they'd made it wrong but it does seem to have settled down and now it's fine. Still tight but perfectly ok.

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and then the canopy snivelled for what seamed to be days...

Clearly your canopy's snivel has nothing to do with the container.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[mr2mk1g 10]

I often experience PC in tow on low speed deployments with my Wings. I've concluded it's got a lot to do with how tightly it closes up - something I see as a bonus for the sort of flying I generally do. I'm not overly concerned with the issue.

A PC in tow I can handle with a quick whack to the bridle... a premature opening could be somewhat more of an issue.

Is deployment being held up by the pin, the excess bridal stowed under the right flap or the d-bag itself during extraction from the container? Can you tell in the air?

Pack and then simulate opening on the ground noting where you get the highest pull forces. Depending on where your problem is, look to the rigging in that area. i.e. if it's the pin, consider the length of your closing loop. If it's the bridle under the right flap, consider how you stow the excess bridle. If it's the d-bag, consider if you might wish to forgo rotating the d-bag before closing the container (Wings manual allows this).

[yoink 321]

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i have lenthened the closing loop by and inch to stop it from being so tight.

an inch? that's some serious lengthening! If you had to lengthen the loop that much then I wouldn't be surprised if a tight pin caused a hesitation sub terminal.
Of course, make sure you've not made it too loose!

[darkwing 4]

I think this is not a Wings-specific issue. I have heard complaints from many jumpers, with a wide range of gear. I second the notion that it is pilot chute size most likely. ALso I don't discount related factors such as a very tight container, and sub-terminal deployment, which can be mitigated by a bigger pilot chute.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[councilman24 36]

Take this as advice ment to keep you safe.

At your experience level you shouldn't be deciding what components are compatable and dicking around with loop lengths. Ask someone who has made all the mistakes before. No need to repeat them.

Normally someone would say see a rigger here. But that depends on the rigger. A rigging certificate holds no magic. Some of the newer riggers I've known were worse than before they had the certificate. Before they thought they knew it all, now they have a piece of paper (hmm plastic now) that SAYS they know it all.

Putting an oversized canopy in a rig is essentially a test jump. It's definately outside normal skydiving. Many of us have done it. To try something new, to jump a CRW canopy, because we're cheap bastards and were putting together whatever we could. And every jump with mismatched components has added risk. Something you don't need now.

Hmm, I must be in a pissing mood this morning.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DexterBase 0]

Hello, I have a few thoughts for you.

You were exiting from a cessna 182 and you stated that you pitched right off the step. The jump run speed of a 182 can be very slow. Skydiving pilot chutes are designed to function optimally at terminal velocity which is sometimes almost twice the speed of jump run on a 182.

Your container is too small for your canopy.

How much experience do you have in the sub-terminal environment? I know from pretty extensive sub-terminal experience () that things seem to take a lot longer than you're used to. After your mind dilates the time and your fear level rises, what seemed like five seconds in person can often turn out to be two seconds on video.

My advice to you is to pack your rig and have someone your size put it on and lay on the floor. pull on the bridle and see how much force it takes to pop the pin and extract the bag. I suspect you will find everything within tolerable limits.

Things happen slower in sub-terminal airspeed including canopy openings.

My guess is that your PC did not hesitate, it just didn't have enough drag at that airspeed to make your deployment feel like the ones you're used to at terminal. That does not mean you should switch to a larger PC. The one that came with your rig is the one you need to use.

Hop n pops are fun, just be ready for a slower opening.

[kansasskydiver 0]

I'm going to defend him on what he did with his wings. When I ordered my Wings I specified that I was going to downsize 3-4 times during the life of the container but I didn't want to buy a different rig everytime. My container is made to fit a 150, when I first got it however I jumped a 170, then I downsized to a 150 and 135 (both which fit perfectly fine) and have jumped a 120 in it before with no problems.

What he did doesn't suprise me at all and I've seen many others do such thing. The container not fitting a 150 is a bs line, it's made for a 135/150 tight. Just like if you have a crossbraced or not.

As for your question, the Wings PC (assuming you got the ZP one and not f111) and bridal is a good length, but not LONG. This could have something to do with it. Another fact that was pointed out, the 182 jumprun is less than 100mph, usually around 80mph. If you're exiting poised and then dumping, the canopy is deploying behind you, there is always a delay when I do it and sometimes what would seem to look like a hung slider or a streamer until you increase your speed. However you said the container is hard to close, how are you packing your D bag? Rolled back or pin to gromet? I pack straight down, ping to gromet and have the corners cut out of my rig as well to ease in deployments.

All in all, I wouldn't say it has anything to do with your rig being for a 135, unless you've put an oversized reserve in it as well. 182's are slow and it DOES take awhile to deploy, trust me I've done them from 2000ft and it takes a lot longer than I'd like them to

<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist!

[nicknitro71 0]

Size of the PC please?

Also read here:

http://www.skydiveems.com/NitroRigging/Articles/Pilot%20Chute%20Size.htm

Memento Audere Semper

903

[spoons 0]

I'm with you on this, 150 should be fine in a 135 container i think. I too have had serious hesitation on hop n pops before and that was with a safire 149 (138 sq ft) in a 150 container. Yet my TJN (cut for a 135) doesn't hesitate. I would put it more down to a different factor - and as you said run in speed of a 182 is something to consider.

[ryand96 0]

I had a very similar experience a couple of weekends ago while jumping my Wings. It is sized for a 170 and has my 170 in it. It was a low hop n pop and I experienced some fun pilot chute hesitation. A few seconds after pitching when I realized that nothing was happening, I looked over my shoulder to see my pilot chute trailing behind me. Not a fun sight. Turning my shoulder might have been enough for my PC to catch some air and open my container because it opened shortly after that.

My container is tight but I like it that way. I've never had a problem on terminal deployments.

My solution for myself is don't do low hop n pops where I don't have enough altitude to take at least a five second delay.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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My solution for myself is don't do low hop n pops where I don't have enough altitude to take at least a five second delay.

What you gonna do if the pilot tells you to get out at 1800 feet?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Jumpmunki 0]

gus

Was the pc definately fully cocked?
------
Yes i'm anal about it when i pack
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Did you give the pc a good throw?
-------
Yes i am a fantastic tosser
-------
Did you look over your shoulder and actually see it in tow?
--------
Yes i did, it scared the shit out of me
--------
Clearly your canopy's snivel has nothing to do with the container.
------------
obviously
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to the gent who said i shouldn't be dicking around with the closing loop. i'm not a kid who has just bought a new rig, then played with it, please don't patronise me.

i always hop and pop from the C182 even with my other rig it didn't take that long to deploy the canopy

when you dump off the step at 3k and the canopy isn't inflated till 1200ft that is worrying

the snivel had quite a bit to do with it...
but the hessitation of 1thousand all the way to 5thousand didn't help matters..

thanks for the feedback guys. i'm going to get the PC size when i get back from work tonight for you

it's the ZP one that i got with the container
the bag is being rotated i'll try gromet to pin next time

[2cmyzx 0]

My question is can anyone here pack and close thier rig tight enough to pick it up off the foor by the bridle? I have tried to experiment with mine (nothing better to do in the north winter) and have had 2 hands on the pullup to get the pin in and when I pulled the bridle out the pin always comes out of the loop easily, nowhere near lifting the rig off the floor. I would think you would have to use some sort of closing device to get a main pin tight enough to lift the rig off the floor?

[Rainbo 0]

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to the gent who said i shouldn't be dicking around with the closing loop. i'm not a kid who has just bought a new rig, then played with it, please don't patronise me.

Heaven forbid that when you ask a question and present certain facts that someone may call you out. Remember that some people around here may have decades of experience and knowledge that they do want to share with you. I can understand that with a couple of years experience and a couple of hundred jumps that you know an awful lot. An old sage once said open ears and shut mouth. You asked the question and the answer was appropriate in my estimation. And I did not even make the answer. If you want to learn something accept the information gratefully because I read no patronizing in it. That being said, slow airspeed, small PC, tight loop, think about it.

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[riggermick 6]

Quote

Take this as advice ment to keep you safe.

At your experience level you shouldn't be deciding what components are compatable and dicking around with loop lengths. Ask someone who has made all the mistakes before. No need to repeat them.

Normally someone would say see a rigger here. But that depends on the rigger. A rigging certificate holds no magic. Some of the newer riggers I've known were worse than before they had the certificate. Before they thought they knew it all, now they have a piece of paper (hmm plastic now) that SAYS they know it all.

Putting an oversized canopy in a rig is essentially a test jump. It's definately outside normal skydiving. Many of us have done it. To try something new, to jump a CRW canopy, because we're cheap bastards and were putting together whatever we could. And every jump with mismatched components has added risk. Something you don't need now.

Hmm, I must be in a pissing mood this morning.

Well said Terry, that sums it up.

Mick.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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My question is can anyone here pack and close thier rig tight enough to pick it up off the foor by the bridle? I have tried to experiment with mine (nothing better to do in the north winter) and have had 2 hands on the pullup to get the pin in and when I pulled the bridle out the pin always comes out of the loop easily, nowhere near lifting the rig off the floor. I would think you would have to use some sort of closing device to get a main pin tight enough to lift the rig off the floor?

I actually did that a few weeks ago. I made my loop too tight. Had a HELL of a time pulling it up enough to get the pin. Finally did. And then I picked it up by the bridle.

Set it down and lengthened the closing loop.

As for not messing with the loop...I was trained in the ISP course on how to change the loop and how tight it should be. To me, that is not something you need to have 1000 jumps to know.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ryand96 0]

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What you gonna do if the pilot tells you to get out at 1800 feet?

I'll get out and I'm still going for my main. Even if I get a few seconds of PC hesitation, I'll be in the saddle by a grand. Unless it's an emergency, I am not going to do hop n pops from below 3 grand.

[mjosparky 3]

First of all, if you can close the rig without the use of tools, the curved pin with clear. If you have a hang up it is with the bridle routing or the bridle hang up on a flap. Some of the flaps that are so FF friendly have the potential to hang up at slower speeds due to the fact they protect the pin so well.
If you got out at a 3000 feet and did not get deployment until 1200 feet, you have some very serious issues you need to deal with the least of which is equipment problems. That is 1,800 feet and 13 to 14 seconds. in which you did nothing. I think that should be the problem you need to look at.

As far as the hesitation goes, go higher and have someone film your H&P deployment. That is the only way you are going find out what is happening.

I don't think Terry was trying to patronize you. I feel he was trying to give you some advise that might save you live someday. You are some kid who just bought a new rig and is now asking why it won't work. You have been around 2 years and he's been around 24 years. You might want to listen to what he has to say instead of blowing him off. If you had all the answers you wounldn't be here asking questions. jmo

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[larsrulz 0]

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First of all, if you can close the rig without the use of tools, the curved pin with clear. If you have a hang up it is with the bridle routing or the bridle hang up on a flap. Some of the flaps that are so FF friendly have the potential to hang up at slower speeds due to the fact they protect the pin so well.

I discovered this from a rigger/instructor at my DZ. We were doing H&Ps from 2500, and he would open his flap right before we hit jump run. I mentioned that his flap was open, and he indicated that it was to prevent flap-induced hesitation. I now do this on all my hop'n'pops.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[gjhdiver 0]

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hi guys, i've just gotten my new wings contain (cut for a 135) and have put my 150 sabre2 in it it's a tight fit...

The make of container really has little or nothing to do with it. Every container out there right now has essentially the same pilot chute material, in about the same sizes, pulling on exactly the same pin. If you'd said that the pin was pulled and the bag was locked into the container, you would have a oint.

It's just not unusual to have hesitations when you pitch right off the step of a Cessna. If you're getting 5 second hesitations after you overstuff the main container, it may be time to replace the main with the one that the main tray was designed for.

[DexterBase 0]

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...it may be time to replace the main with the one that the main tray was designed for.

Probably smarter to get a different (larger) container to jump until you're ready to put a smaller canopy in that wings. Having a main that's too big for your container is probably the worst reason to downsize canopies.

[diablopilot 2]

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The make of container really has little or nothing to do with it. Every container out there right now has essentially the same pilot chute material, in about the same sizes, pulling on exactly the same pin. If you'd said that the pin was pulled and the bag was locked into the container, you would have a oint.

That's not entirely true. Some designs in the past have had issues with restricting the bridle extraction, some tuck flap styles do the same, some rigs have smaller or different materials on their P/C's, some hve a flat/tall bag and some have a square/stubby bag. All things can affect deployments ESPECIALY sub terminal.

Is the container the problem in this reported incidence? Probably not, more likely jumper perception and the fact they've disreguarder manufacturer's recomendations on canopy size.

To the 2 or 3 people with little experience who have said it's ok, I SOOOOO glad you know more than the manufacturer.

To those that think they are being patronized, well if you have the answers, stop asking the questions.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.