New Wings PC Hessitation

[stratostar 5]

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What you gonna do if the pilot tells you to get out at 1800 feet?

I'll get out and I'm still going for my main. Even if I get a few seconds of PC hesitation, I'll be in the saddle by a grand. Unless it's an emergency, I am not going to do hop n pops from below 3 grand.

Reeeeeeally, I think it's good pratice to be able to and be well virsed in getting out low, should the need ever arise to get out below 2000 you know you can do it and be quick about it.
Instead of holding back in the door with gear fear or just fear alone, it might just save your ass one day.

The next time your in a cessna have to pilot make a pass at 1200 to 1400ft and open the door, take you a good look out the door, if the pilot told you to "GET OUT NOW!" could you ?
Would you? and what canopy would you use?

~

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Reeeeeeally, I think it's good pratice to be able to and be well virsed in getting out low, should the need ever arise to get out below 2000 you know you can do it and be quick about it.
Instead of holding back in the door with gear fear or just fear alone, it might just save your ass one day.

The next time your in a cessna have to pilot make a pass at 1200 to 1400ft and open the door, take you a good look out the door, if the pilot told you to "GET OUT NOW!" could you ?
Would you? and what canopy would you use?

I agree 100%. I spent a day doing hop n pop's from 1800 feet (really low clouds) a year or so ago. It wasn't really a lot of fun especially jumping my canopy BUT I know have a really good idea of exactly how much altitude I need. Not to mention I'm really comfy with getting out quickly, stable and been ready to quickly deal with any emergency procedure.

I'd rather have my first time getting out that low be in a controlled environment than an emergency.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ryand96 0]

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Reeeeeeally, I think it's good pratice to be able to and be well virsed in getting out low, should the need ever arise to get out below 2000 you know you can do it and be quick about it.
Instead of holding back in the door with gear fear or just fear alone, it might just save your ass one day.

The next time your in a cessna have to pilot make a pass at 1200 to 1400ft and open the door, take you a good look out the door, if the pilot told you to "GET OUT NOW!" could you ?
Would you? and what canopy would you use?

I totally agree. Everyone should well versed with what they would do should a low altitude emergency happen. They should know exactly at what altitude they would opt to go for their reserve.

And no, I don't have gear fear and I wouldn't hold back in the door. I know the limitations of my gear and I know the altitude at which I would go for my reserve.

In the scenario you described above, if the need to bail out between 1200 and 1400 feet were to arise I would go straight for my reserve.

[gjhdiver 0]

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The make of container really has little or nothing to do with it. Every container out there right now has essentially the same pilot chute material, in about the same sizes, pulling on exactly the same pin. If you'd said that the pin was pulled and the bag was locked into the container, you would have a oint.

That's not entirely true. Some designs in the past have had issues with restricting the bridle extraction, some tuck flap styles do the same, some rigs have smaller or different materials on their P/C's, some hve a flat/tall bag and some have a square/stubby bag. All things can affect deployments ESPECIALY sub terminal.

Yup, agreed, but he's talking about a perception of towing the pilot chute from full bridle extension, if I understand him correctly. Container design really doesn't come into it at that point much.

It's probably more to do with a slow subterminal exit than just about anything else though. Hell, back in the olden days, I did all my clear and pulls on front and back rounds with ripcords. That will totally redefine the meaning of pilot chute hestations and slow openings for you....

Off topic. My first freefall was from 2800 feet on that system. I was told to count to five, and if nothing was happening after that, count to five again just to give it a little more time.

Ahh, the good old days.

[stratostar 5]

Well that's good I would hate to have to throw/push your PHAT ass out of the way when not ready to get out.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[paulie33 0]

Just out of interest, what is the size of the wings container ?

[Jumpmunki 0]

right. lets round this up


the reason i had a go was it was made out that i "dicked around" with a component of the system.

i had a problem

i talked to my reserve packer, regular packers and other packers.

we sat and analysed the problem and came up with a "lets see if this helps" solution.

the solution was to loosen off the closing loop slightly.
we also decided that it would be better to pack the D bag grommet up.

both of these things in combination have resulted in the systems performance sub terminal better.

So there it is, spelled out for people to understand what i have been trying to say, for the people who don't question the wording and if they don't understand what is trying to be said questioning the person who said it. but rather dive in thinking they know exactly what was trying to be said.

A little ironic don't you think?

[nicknitro71 0]

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the solution was to loosen off the closing loop slightly.

Usually a very bad idea.

You still did now aknowledge the SIZE of your PC.

Also what is the length of you bridle?

Memento Audere Semper

903

[mjosparky 3]

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right. lets round this up


the reason i had a go was it was made out that i "dicked around" with a component of the system.

i had a problem

i talked to my reserve packer, regular packers and other packers.

we sat and analysed the problem and came up with a "lets see if this helps" solution.

the solution was to loosen off the closing loop slightly.
we also decided that it would be better to pack the D bag grommet up.

both of these things in combination have resulted in the systems performance sub terminal better.

So there it is, spelled out for people to understand what i have been trying to say, for the people who don't question the wording and if they don't understand what is trying to be said questioning the person who said it. but rather dive in thinking they know exactly what was trying to be said.

A little ironic don't you think?

What is ironic is if you have all the answers, why do come here and ask questions. Most of us are just dumb enough to think that when you ask a question you want an answer.

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at" Sundance to Butch.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hookitt 0]

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alot of people have said that wings are "rubbish sub terminal"

does anyone have any feedback for me on why this statement is true?

It's not

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i have lenthened the closing loop by and inch to stop it from being so tight.

That won't help. If you can close it by hand, it's coming open when you toss the pilot chute. Tighten the closing loop back up, and put the rig on. Then have someone pull on the bridle and see what it takes to open the container. While your at it, see what it takes to extract the d-bag

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she is very hard to close, is this because it's new and needs to break in?

Large canopy in a tight fitting rig is going to be hard to close. As a reasonably new jumper, you're a reasonably new packer as well so that probably has a good bit to do with it.

Wings are a tad more labor intensive to pack at first, add a large main to the mix and have some fun.

One hop and pop isn't a good test. It's simply one jump so there's not much one can deduce from that amount of data. How many jumps have you done before you packed grommet up, and how many after?

Grommet up is the only part that may have made a difference. The tight closing loop will not. It may have possibly been wedged in between the bottom of the reserve tray and the bottom of the main tray. Expecially if you have a strong arch.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skydude2k 0]

If you are posting to this thread it would help if you include the size of your wings and the size of the canopies in it. I jump in Scotland which is possibly the hop n pop capital of the world and I have done many from various altitudes in my time jumping and never had any noticable hessitations. That is...... I now have two new wings and my wife has one. I have experienced two +5 sec P/C hesitations after pin pull on hop and pops. One on one of my wings which is cut for a 107 with a 107 Stilletto in it and the other when test jumping my wifes wings which is a cut for a 120 with a 120 sabre 2 in it. Haven't had the chance to jump my other wings sub terminal yet which is cut for a 107 with a 97 stilletto in it but even this is a tight fit.
A master rigger friend has had a look at it. Has suggested talking to Sunshine as it looks like the main closing flap when seated in its slot can increase the force required on the bridle to pull out the bag. All our wings are new and I'm monitoring to see if it gets any better as the container loosens off with use.
I am very happy with the wings its well made and looks great and one of my of friends has had similar hesitations on their new javelin with the correct size canopies when it was new. This problem disappeared after a few jumps
Keep monitoring your own kit. If there is something you don't like about it. Talk to the manufacturer and or a rigger. But if you are trying to put a larger canopy in there than the container is cut for then you need to be carefull with any container. You never know how low you will need to get out of a plane

Doug Mclelland
OC - Team Fusion
A mind like a parachute, tends to work
better when open.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Wings are a tad more labor intensive to pack at first, add a large main to the mix and have some fun.

I can attest to this as well. I got my Wings about a month ago. It was very tough to pack it well for the first few jumps. Now I got it down though.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[alan 1]

I can remember doing H&Ps from a C-182 at 1800' in order to stay just under the clouds. DZO made us quit when we started turning a few points on 10 sec delays. Jump run was 100 mph, no cut. No CYPRES in any of those rigs.

alan

[stratostar 5]

I understand where your coming from, but I don't own a wings.
My post was to the guy who wouldn't get out below 3k for a hop n pop. This is not the dude I would want in front of me blocking up the door when the shit hit's the fan because he is worried about getting out at 1200 ft.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skydude2k 0]

Sorry stratostar looks like I replied incorrectly to you. I was intending to send a general post to eveyone on the thread and to anyone who has a wings but didn't give any details about contain sizes or canopy sizes.
Kinda not used to this forum stuff. I should get better with practice. Kinda like a lot of things in life.

Cheers

Doug Mclelland
OC - Team Fusion
A mind like a parachute, tends to work
better when open.

[Jumpmunki 0]

skydude.. i said in my first post

it's cut for a 150 reserve, and a 135 main, it has a 150 smart in it and a 150 sabre 2 ..

not that it matters i've solved the problem, i was mearly asking if anyone else had come across the problem ..

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Does throwing right out the door in slow airspeed(C182 exit) make the "snatch force" almost nothing? Maybe that is why the PC was in tow until the airspeed picked up enough so that the tension on the bridle pulled the pin out?

Kris.

[hookitt 0]

Try this... actually don't because bad things will happen...

This experiment is assuming the PC is made properly and is fully cocked.

Take the PC off your rig and take it for a ride in the country. Drive at oh... say 48 MPH... hold on to the bridle and toss the PC out the window. It will immediately be ripped out of your hand. If you hold on tight, or wrap the bridle around your hand it may prove to be very uncomfortable. Rather than performing this act of experimentation out in the country, do it near a hospital.
If you exit a cessna in a hard arch head high, especially with your feet closer to your butt rather than extended, the orientation of your body is closer to feet to the relative wind.

If that is your orientation, the bag can hang up on the bottom of the reserve packtray even if the main container is open. I have been hit in the head with my d-bag before.

Skysurfers for instance have pulled standing up on their boards and towed the pilot chute untill they either leaned forward, or the bag finally unwedged itself.

Pack a rig with the closing loop as tight as you possibly can. Lay the rig down on the ground and try to pick it up by the bridle. I will bet you one hundred pesos that the pin will be extracted from the closing loop before the rig will lift off the ground.

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[jose 0]

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skydude.. i said in my first post

it's cut for a 150 reserve, and a 135 main, it has a 150 smart in it and a 150 sabre 2 ..

not that it matters i've solved the problem, i was mearly asking if anyone else had come across the problem ..

First of all, was it "you" that solved the problem? Or was it others that assisted you with coming to the conclusion that you were making a series of mistakes in not only rig size choice, but packing as well.

Did you expect that if anyone else here had the same problem that all they would say was "Yes"? Do you expect no explaination? Certainly seems from here that you cannot take criticism very well at all. And at your #'s or mine for that matter, its a dangerous combination.

Sure, your gear situation is solved for the moment, now if you could only work on your attitude. Drop the bravado and dissension, it can kill you in this sport.

[BBKid 0]

Just thought I'd defend Jumpmumki for a minute. The dealer he bought the rig from is well respected, and knew what canopies were going in the rig - he knew because he assembled it, and he wouldn't have sold him a rig that was going to be dangerous due to container/canopy size.

And as for bravado or whatever he's been accused of - well, knowing him the way I do I just find that idea ridiculously funny! He's one of the least arrogant people I know, especially within this sport, and he's always open to new ideas.

In the past he has been accused of not coming across too well in posts made in the Internet though...

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[Jumpmunki 0]

jose.... please don't go down that road. the thread has already decended to the usual level threads decend to, that why i havn't bothered to reply until now.

Thankyou for everyone who put in some constructive input. it's interesting to read some of the interesting theories behind it all (hanging up on the reserve tray etc)

next time i'll just pm the people who's advice i want.

BBkid, your a goon, shut the bollocks

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[adamUK 3]

Jumpmunki,

For what it's worth, on the very first jump my brand new wings, I had a bit of PC hesitation (probably two or three seconds). It was a 5k hop and pop with a 5 second delay. It's sized for an Aerodyne 188/ smart reserve which are the canopies in there. From jump 2 onwards, everything else has been fine.

The pin was very tight when I first got it but is a bit less so now since it the closing loop has stretched just a touch. I put the hesitation down to this and the fact I was sub-terminal.

I tried looking in the wings manual and there's no guidance on acceptable max/min pull forces for the pin... any riggers out there wish to comment?

[adamUK 3]

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the solution was to loosen off the closing loop slightly.

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Usually a very bad idea.

Just a question: what's the issue with lengthening the closing loop slightly? (I am not talking about having a sloppy pin or anything). Say, 1/8th or 1/4" of an inch so that the pin is still snug but the container can be closed without considerable profanities.

Surely the closing loop will stretch of it's own accord anyway? My closing loop was pretty darn tight when I first got it after the rigger assembled it but I just persevered and lost several layers of skin getting it shut...

Do you measure the force requried to get the pin out? Are there guidelines on what this should be for a correctly snug pin??

thanks!
Adam.