To AAD or Not To AAD, That is the Question...

[Bandanarama 0]

First off I'll comment about the fact that I'm a newbie and my 2 cents are probably worth just that. So, feel free to ignore my comments but my goal is just to open your minds and get some feedback regarding some of the beliefs and questions I have. I thought I would play devil's advocate and share them with you. To be honest with you, I feel like there is a lot of heavily biased information regarding this topic.

Electronic device (AAD) malfunctions (or "functions" at undesired times due to pressure changes that potentially cause the devices to fire associated with certain body positions while in freefall, decent rate, etc.) have similar odds of a person dying in the sport of skydiving in my opinion. They are relatively small but they definitely happen.

Here's food for thought... How many 2-out canopy landings have been made without an AAD device firing? How many people have died while wearing a Cypres or Vigil AAD as a result of their malfunction? How many people have been injured as a result of a Cypres or Vigil AAD malfunction? The aforementioned questions are more directed at one vs. the other - in other words, Cypres vs. Vigil.

Now ask yourself a few more questions... Since the Cypres 2 is a brand new model with a complete different power supply, does it truly have a long track record or does the Cypres 1 have that record? Have you ever heard of problems with electronic device power supplies?

Do I think the pros outweigh the cons of having an AAD? Yes but I think both the Cypres and Vigil are both flight worthy and I am willing to take the risk of skydiving with either one. I'm still making up my mind on which one to add to my new rig which should have its canopies arrive within a week. I can't wait!!!

NOTE: I'm still measuring the safety, historical, and financial benefits of "both" selections. I may still select either a Cypres or a Vigil.

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[IBTOMP 0]

With the crazy exits I seen you do so far you should invest in an AAD.

Tom

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely and in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy sh1t...what a ride!"

[Kbone 0]

Both cypres2 and vigil are new devices.

However, Cypres has had 12 years of experience to work out the bugs and build a good reputation among the skydiving community.

When they designed the new cypres2 they were able to base their designs very closely to the original cypres.

In the 18 months these 2 devices have been out, the cypres2 has never had any serious problems that I'm aware of. The only thing I can think of is the display going blank although the unit did in fact stay on and functions normally. It is just an inconvenience.

How many problems has the Vigil faced? Do a search on DZ.com and there are so many problems with recalls and misfires that I've lost count! They are banned in some countries.

I would like to see Vigil succeed but they have some growing pains to work out first.

Kbone

[Bandanarama 0]

Hi Tom,

Good to see you still flippin' me some sheeot! I deserve a little every now and then BTW, you got my Seattle Skydiver's Club Hardcore vote! I'm glad you were the first to smack me around a bit. I'm sure I'll catch a little more from some other folks as the post ages some.

Kbone,

Thanks for your input and I welcome your experienced comments. I am very aware of the Vigil forum threads regarding everything you mentioned including the Sweden and Austrian bans.

I agree Airtec (Cypres) appears to have a favorable reputation amongst all of you seasoned veterans and I respect that. However, I'm sure you can recollect a few issues with Cypres over the years. Prior to your recommendation, I had done queries for both Cypres and Vigil incidents here on dropzone.com. Cypres has a few threads too.

As we all take calculated risks in this sport, I'm willing to risk using Cypres or Vigil (sorry to the other AAD companies I didn't include in this communication). An apples-to-oranges analogy for your mention of reputation would be the automotive industry.

There are plenty of very reputable automotive companies that introduce new models based on past designs that carry flaws. Know of any recalls with new or existing automotive parts? When it comes to electronic devices, it's impossible to be entirely free of them. Hell, I work in the computer industry and can't think of any software that is 100% bug free. However, that shouldn't keep people from trying new products that others are successfully using.

If a company like AAD (Vigil) makes an effort to replace every single device to strengthen its safety design, then I have to respect that. I don't necessarily agree with their maintenance-free philosophy. However I'm sure if anyone is concerned about their Vigil AAD, they can simply send it to the factory at any time. I would be willing to bet it might even cost less to have them perform any inspection or maintenance than Airtec. Just because something is advertised as maintenance-free doesn't mean you can't send it in every 4 years too.

One thing I failed to mention in my original post is how much I believe in competition and free enterprise. Without pioneers in all industries willing to take risks, we as people and consumers would not have advanced a fraction of where we are today.

I'm sure when people first started recreational skydiving, there were quite a few concerns. There should always be concern in this sport but let's hope there is more than one company that succeeds in the manufacturing of safe and reasonably priced AADs. I think there is room for a few other AAD companies.

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[Amazon 7]

I have a Cypres2 in my new rig and a Cypres1 in my old rig from last year. . I make sure I do not scare it as some people seem to do. I think of it as cheap insurance .. a just in case kind of thing.

And what the heck.. if you aint got one.. you will NEVER be able to join the Snohomish Team Cypres of Rob and Brian

[phoenixlpr 0]

Having an AAD might save your life.

Having skydiving as a hobby or as a sport does not mean that you can`t die in other way.......

Take it easy. Don`t think too much.

[Ron 7]

Get an AAD if you can afford it.

I prefer a CYPRES. Yes, they had some problems, but for the most part those problems were 10+ years ago.

Vigil seems to finaly have the bugs worked out. But, I am not willing to risk my life on *seems*.

Even with the problems CYPRES had (And I was jumping around that time). I own one.

I look at it this way.

An AAD is insurance against me doing something so stupid that I should have killed myself. I plan all my jumps so I don't rely on it...Which is harder than you might think. But if you can afford one, get one.

As for which one....I'd still get a CYPRES2 over the Vigil. The track record of the CYPRES2 involves a minor problem, the Vigil has a few serious problems in it's recent history.

But like I said, the Vigil seems to have solved the problems. They do have good customer service.

I just still have doubts about the product.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[katzurki 0]

The official response SSK sent me was that they had no records of any death as a result of Cypres firing and causing the two canopies to entangle.

However, I know of at least one.

Edit: So the most risk an AAD presents is firing during the actual process of deployment if it's too low (doesn't have to be 800 ft, too -- when the D-bag makes you "stand", there's some weirdness with pressure which makes it think you are lower than you actually are).

Of course, there are countless more deaths to no-pull than to entanglement.

However, since AADs are mandatory here, the choice has been made for us :)

[mr2mk1g 10]

Ballence your risks. Put risks the AAD adds on one side of a scale and risks it takes away on the other... which is heaviest?

I bet it takes away more than it adds.

Add risk
1) cost - could get current or canopy coaching (perhaps you can't afford the sport at all... or shouldn't afford the sport).
2) psychological - you believe you'll be safe as you have an AAD and therefore go on dives you shouldn't... easy to avoid - don't do the dive.
3) two out - should only happen after you've already fucked up anyway, not nessaserily life threatening even if you do end up there.
4) premature... I am not aware of any instances of this with a cypres barring RF interferrance which should now have been solved.

Reduced risk
1) no pull due to unconciousness - has killed many and many have been saved by their AAD - continues to kill people without an AAD
2) no pull due to innattention - has killed many and many have been saved by their AAD - continues to kill people without an AAD
3) no pull due to brain fart - has killed many and many have been saved by their AAD - this is why students are required to use one, their heads are flatulent.

Someone should do a graphic with big weights representing an issue that kills/has killed a lot of people and small weights representing a less significant issue.

[BETO74 0]

I would not jumps with you if you don't have an AAD, I know lots of coaches who practice different disciplines that do the same thing, two canopies out due to a lack of altitude awareness in not nearly as bad as just bounce or try to deploy with not enough altitude, there has been a couple of times that I have jump with no AAD, some times backing up from a specific dive, how many times you end up with you team mates knee in your face for transitioning too close Freeflying, yes I did not loose consiousness But I could of, same with everything exits during tracking dives could get ugly too.

For one bad scenerario you could think was due to a AAD I can give you a hundred good scenarios where your life will be safe by a AAD.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[Harksaw 0]

I don't have statistics, but I'm willing to bet that all the situations you've mentioned where AADs caused deaths are dwarfed by the number of saves.

AADs also have the additional benefit of calming down your parents and whuffo sig. others.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[specnaz007 0]

Quote

Vigil seems to finaly have the bugs worked out.

Do they?


All the Vigils model B en C can be reprogrammed from 1035mbar to 1090mbar free of charge

I checked this and it is true. ALL VIGILS PRODUCED BEFORE OCTOBER 1 2004 (B and Cmodel) can be reprogrammed. If your Dropzone is around sea level this is even very much recommended. This to avoid that your Vigil will not switch on and you have to adjust it 50 meter (160 feet or so) and was one of the conditions to be allowed in Germany again.

This is actually a recall. Not mandatory but it makes us (again also Vigil users) wonder

Why does this only come up after the Germans made it a point?
Why is there no service bulletin but do we have to find it out via Dropzone.com? (thank you skydiverton)

And more
There have been at least two misfires due to (water)swoop landings. We do remember that the Vigil could handle that. Swoopin and a waterlanding was no problem was said. Now it turns out not and have vigils fired 10 minutes after the landing. How did Vigil solved this???????????? They changed the manual!!!!!!!!!!

Garik

PS only the reprogramming is free of charge. The repack and shipping is at your own cost!!!

When calling today I saw on their website:
Guardian Angels need no Maintenance

[mark135 0]

If you want an aad, buy one. If you need an aad take up golf.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[tdog 0]

Quote

If you want an aad, buy one. If you need an aad take up golf.

But in golf, if someone hits you in the face, the worst thing that can happen is you crash the golf cart into the water trap...

[dorbie 0]

Get an AAD, most of the arguments around not getting one are specious, skydivers are saved by AADs and I haven't heard of one incident of anyone one being killed by one, so do the smart thing and play the odds.

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet. i.e. another 4 more seconds of inattentiveness and you'd have hit the ground at a fatal impact speed. If this ever happens to you then you've just proven that of all people *you* really need an AAD even if you pulled your main just in time.

It's unlikely you'll trigger a pro in a swoop, the students have/had lower thresholds and this might have happened, but since you're getting a pro (right) you needn't worry about that.

The devices are well shielded (This was the old vigil issue but only for massive electrostatic voltages). I'm confident I won't get an accidental deployment due to an AAD, but if I do the chances are it'll pop on the ground where an active AAD spends most of it's time. This is what happened with a couple of vigils and they were grounded & recalled for upgrades (every one of them), so you can be sure this is not happening with any regularity with current AADs or we'd all know about it PDQ.

AAD's self diagnose when powered on. The cypres 2 is no exception, one thing it can do is measure power from the battery. The old cypres used to give you a voltage readout, the new one just counts down and tests internally. I trust its ability to detect power supply problems and predict battery life with a healthy margin of safety and simply tell me to send it for service if there's a problem. It doesn't have to guarantee battery life or have infallible reliability etc, it need only run a thorough self test. If it goes wrong in 4 years it is going to tell you. You also keep your end of the deal by switching it on and checking it before each jump.

[mjrod 0]

Ok, here is my question,

I have an extra container which I want to use as a accuracy rig and just do hop & pops, but I am thinking I can get away without a AAD. What are your thoughts on this?

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>

[slotperfect 7]

Quote

Get an AAD, most of the arguments around not getting one are specious, skydivers are saved by AADs and I haven't heard of one incident of anyone one being killed by one, so do the smart thing and play the odds.

It's a personal choice. It's more about educating oneself on the pros and cons of owning one and making an informed decision. Owning one simply to "beat the odds" can lead to dependence on the AAD ("Oh well, I know my CYPRES will save me if anything goes wrong"), which leads down the dangerous road to complacency.

Quote

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet. i.e. another 4 more seconds of inattentiveness and you'd have hit the ground at a fatal impact speed.

I have a video of a tandem pair on final approach at about 500 Feet experiencing a CYPRES fire and landing under two canopies. Don't get me wrong - I am a CYPRES fan . . . I own one and have a lot of confidence in the product. But it is a mechanical device and despite its high quality and modern engineering it can malfunction.

Quote

If this ever happens to you then you've just proven that of all people *you* really need an AAD even if you pulled your main just in time.

It probably communicates that this person is in need of more than just an AAD. It indicates they are in need of some re-training and a serious look at the dangerous nature of this sport. People who are switched on and continually respect the danger of skydiving, doing all they can to mitigate the risks, are around for a long time.

Quote

The devices are well shielded (This was the old vigil issue but only for massive electrostatic voltages). I'm confident I won't get an accidental deployment due to an AAD, but if I do the chances are it'll pop on the ground where an active AAD spends most of it's time. This is what happened with a couple of vigils and they were grounded & recalled for upgrades (every one of them), so you can be sure this is not happening with any regularity with current AADs or we'd all know about it PDQ.

There's lots of discussion about particular Vigil malfuncations, including the ones you mentione here. A forum search will lead to some good reading.

Arrive Safely

John

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Ok, here is my question,

I have an extra container which I want to use as a accuracy rig and just do hop & pops, but I am thinking I can get away without a AAD. What are your thoughts on this?

Personal choice as an experienced skydiver. I skydived for over 18 years without an AAD and I am still here to tell you about it. 4100 skydives and two out of five reserve rides without an AAD; four out of five rides without an RSL. AAD's are great and are advisable in nearly ever circumstance, but they are not mandatory. Likewise, there are instances where one could argue they are not warranted. Solo accuracy exits from 3000 feet don't really mandate an AAD in my opinion, nor do solo competition swoop jump exits from 4000, therefore I do not have an AAD in one of my rigs. The original CYPRES in my blue rig isn't that fond of water so, obviously, I try to either jump my red rig or try not to chow in ponds with it. Likewise, my red rig is my primary wingsuit rig and I simply don't feel I need one in it. Once again, personal choice as an experienced skydiver. If Santa Claus bought me a CYPRES 2 for that other rig I would not turn it down (obviously), but jumping with neither an AAD (on occasion) and an RSL doesn't bother me enough to spend another grand I don't have.

Chuck

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Get an AAD, most of the arguments around not getting one are specious, skydivers are saved by AADs and I haven't heard of one incident of anyone one being killed by one, so do the smart thing and play the odds.

It's a personal choice. It's more about educating oneself on the pros and cons of owning one and making an informed decision. Owning one simply to "beat the odds" can lead to dependence on the AAD ("Oh well, I know my CYPRES will save me if anything goes wrong"), which leads down the dangerous road to complacency.

I over simplified my position to summarize my views at the start of my post. Getting informed is the right thing. However playing the odds is the right strategy.

Quote

Quote

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet. i.e. another 4 more seconds of inattentiveness and you'd have hit the ground at a fatal impact speed.

I have a video of a tandem pair on final approach at about 500 Feet experiencing a CYPRES fire and landing under two canopies. Don't get me wrong - I am a CYPRES fan . . . I own one and have a lot of confidence in the product. But it is a mechanical device and despite its high quality and modern engineering it can malfunction.

Interesting, but no note on the cause or era of the failure? For me this does fall into the playing the odds category. People are good at focusing on problems and missing the big picture, i.e. the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

Quote

Quote

If this ever happens to you then you've just proven that of all people *you* really need an AAD even if you pulled your main just in time.

It probably communicates that this person is in need of more than just an AAD. It indicates they are in need of some re-training and a serious look at the dangerous nature of this sport. People who are switched on and continually respect the danger of skydiving, doing all they can to mitigate the risks, are around for a long time.

Big time, but my point was only to highlight the weakness of using low pull 2 out scenarios as a case against AADs.

[slotperfect 7]

Quote

no note on the cause or era of the failure?

The electronic components inside the control unit are embedded in silicon gel. The silicon is poured in the unit in a semi-liquid state, and it later solidifies.

This problem stemmed from a bad batch of silicon gel (procured from another manufacturer who had received a bad batch of ingredients). The silicon never fully solidified, and while this pair was under canopy on final the gooey ooze drifted over the pressure sensor causing the unit to fire.

The few CYPRES units manufactured using that lot number of silicon gel were identified, recalled, and replaced. It was an isolated incident, but I posted it to list as an example of why we should not *depend* on AADs.

I applaud your ability to have an objective conversation in the forums, especially on a subject that has been controversial here before. I'll trade ideas with you any time!

Arrive Safely

John

[Ron 7]

Quote

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet. i.e. another 4 more seconds of inattentiveness and you'd have hit the ground at a fatal impact speed.

Read the manual that comes with the CYPRES...It will fire as high as 1200 feet if you are in the process of deploying. It has to do with the preasure change while you are going from flat dumb and happy to a stand up...the unit gets confused and fires...The Vigil might do the same, I don't know.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet.

Wrong.

The documentation says it will fire when it measures a 1050 foot pressure and greater than 78MPH. decent rate In a stable belly-to-earth configuration this occurs at 750 feet. Pitching at 1500 and snivelling will fire it.

I've seen video showing 2000 feet on an altimeter, immediate deployment, and Cypres fire.

If you plan on deploying at 3000 feet, your Cypres won't fire even if you go a bit low (say 2500). If you plan on deploying lower it might.

[Ron 7]

Quote

If you plan on deploying at 3000 feet, your Cypres won't fire even if you go a bit low (say 2500). If you plan on deploying lower it might.

I deploy at 2,000 to 2,500, and I have not had a CYPRES fire. I jump a Stilleto, or a Velocity.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Quote

If you have a two out with a cypress it means that you hadn't deployed by 750 feet.

Wrong.

The documentation says it will fire when it measures a 1050 foot pressure and greater than 78MPH. decent rate In a stable belly-to-earth configuration this occurs at 750 feet. Pitching at 1500 and snivelling will fire it.

I've seen video showing 2000 feet on an altimeter, immediate deployment, and Cypres fire.

If you plan on deploying at 3000 feet, your Cypres won't fire even if you go a bit low (say 2500). If you plan on deploying lower it might.

Edit, OK I understand your point about the pressure difference in a snivel vs belly. It maybe adds an extra second and a half so you're talking about ~5.5 seconds.

It doesn't much matter if you snivel past the AAD trigger altitude or fall past it, if you'd pitched ~5? seconds later you'd have unquestionably hit the ground at speeds in excess of 78 MPH without an AAD which would make for a very bad day. Any way you look at it 5 seconds is a thin margin of error. It could reasonably be argued that at those altitudes you should have been pulling your reserve anyway, not your main. So you have serious altitude awareness issues.

Student versions of the original cypress had higher firing altitudes (from memory ~2000ft)and lower speeds for firing. The new ones seem to have only lower speeds. I'm not saying an AAD won't fire high, it would be foolish to make such a claim, but we don't know what model of cypress was in the video you saw and one anecdote even on video doesn't make the case.

[Randy_H 0]

I know I am very new to skydiving, but I will always have an AAD. For $1300, you esentially have a life insurance policy! It makes me feel better having one too!

010010010110010101100001011101000111000001110101011100110111001101111001