oldfart 0 #1 May 20, 2004 Returning to the sport after a hiatus and noticing an overwhelming majority of folks prefer to pro pack.Just want to know if this is indeed superior as I don't remember ever seeing this back in the day.I hadn't heard of it till recently.Any tips here for an old flatpacker? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #2 May 20, 2004 You could have a look in the PD owners manual http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/MainUsersManual.pdf - start at page 16. There are also some decent videos... but I guess hands on is the best way to learn. Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #3 May 20, 2004 There's nothing wrong with flat packing, if you want to continue doing it that way. I started out packing that way. I took a very long lay off too, and another old fart showed me the flat pack first. I then went to a pro pack, mainly because everyone else seemed to pack that way. I even had one guy make a snide remark when he saw me packing up my big ole F-111 canopy with a flat pack. I later got a smaller Z-P canopy and started pro-packing. I now psycho-pack and like it best of all. Actually it's a pro-pack (almost) and you roll it up to get it in the bag....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #4 May 20, 2004 I kind of like the inherent neatness of flat packing -- there's very little of the "close your eyes and stuff it in there" to it. My old F111 had a diaper on it for me to flat pack into; man that was easy, and got the best looks at the DZ I find that my current canopy opens a little too slowly for me with a psycho pack (although man the psycho pack is easy) -- maybe I should cut a hole in my slider to speed up the opening . Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #5 May 20, 2004 Pro packing is supposed to give longer life to canopies. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that from riggers and master riggers. You may be interested to know that many reserves today are also pro-packed (kinda). I heard one master rigger state that there is no reason to flat pack any canopy, main or reserve. Obviously a lot of this is hearsay, so I agree with the poster that says read the instructions from the manufacturer. <- 300 main packs, 7 reserve packs, and I've never flat-packedTrapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #6 May 20, 2004 QuotePro packing is supposed to give longer life to canopies. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that from riggers and master riggers. You won't hear it from this rigger. QuoteYou may be interested to know that many reserves today are also pro-packed (kinda). I heard one master rigger state that there is no reason to flat pack any canopy, main or reserve. Mr. Booth seems to disagree: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=967769;#967769"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #7 May 20, 2004 It kind a depends what you jump. If you’re going to be jumping a F-111 or hybrid (half-zp) parachute flat-packing is fine you can also pro-pack but it doesn’t really matter. But if your flying a zp canopy it is best to pro pack it. I’ve seen many a ‘recovering’ old timer try to flat pack the sabre they just jumped and have it go all over the place while trying to pack it. But then again, you can pro pack zp, it just a little harder than if its f-111. SeanCSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #8 May 20, 2004 QuoteMr. Booth seems to disagree: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=967769;#967769 Was that because of flat packing, or because they weren't being packed by 16 year old kids making $5 a pack job? I think tandems malfunctions probably don't reflect sport jumping on a solo rig.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #9 May 20, 2004 It's because many people that Propack Tandems have a tendency to get the brakeline a little to close to the nose. It has nothing to do with the packer’s age. People tend to use more care when flat packing. I watch people time and again, wrapping the tail with no regard to what the brake lines are doing. Then plop it on the ground, and push the brake lines to toward the nose. It stands to reason, that if the parachute is put in the bag orderly, it will come out orderly. If the brake lines are near or in front of the nose, and it starts to inflate before the lines are forced to the back where they belong, the user gets to fly the reserve that WAS packed orderly. Also, there's no reason a flat pack will wear a canopy faster than a propack. Toss a bunch of nylon out in the air stream, something is bound to happen. Use a few common and sensible steps and the odds are more in your favor.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #10 May 20, 2004 QuoteI heard one master rigger state that there is no reason to flat pack any canopy, main or reserve. How does he pack a round? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #11 May 20, 2004 How can you avoid that then Hookit...getting a brakeline too close to the nose....how do YOu avoid it propacking...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #12 May 20, 2004 I don't know if this is true, but someone once told me that flat packing greatly reduces the odds of a line-over..can anyone confirm this? ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #13 May 20, 2004 QuoteI don't know if this is true, but someone once told me that flat packing greatly reduces the odds of a line-over..can anyone confirm this?[/reply I would say that's true only because it's easier to make the mistake propacking than flat packing. If done properly with control of the tail propacking shouldn't be any more prone. But I had one customer who packed two line overs almost back to back when he was learning to propack. I told him I appreciated his confidence in my reserve pack jobs but STOP TESTING THEM. I maintain there is virtually no difference between a propack and a flatpack (B on A, C on B, D on C)type. The only real difference is the material is spit out to each side with a pro pack and s fold back and forth with the flat pack. Flat packs ARE NOT packed 90 degrees off heading. (None of these comments apply to the A on B Don C "flop pack") Probably the best (most important) reason to propack is it takes less room in the hanger on the mat. Compared to when we packed in the grass and had lot's of room.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #14 May 20, 2004 What kind of main canopy are you jumping? What is your primary discipline or focused activity while skydiving?Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites inextremis 0 #15 May 21, 2004 I was having some very snappy openings, occasionally a real dinger, on a Sharpchuter demo canopy that seemed to me a natural to flat pack--large canopy, F-111, etc. So I dug out a manual for Flight Concepts parachutes and it suggested a pro pack (I was also jumping a Stiletto and obviously pro packing that because of the shape). When I tried a pro pack on the Sharpchuter, it really tamed the openings and made them more consistent. And it's faster and takes up less space. Watch those brake lines--same comment about tandems applies when pro packing larger canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 93 #16 May 21, 2004 QuoteI don't know if this is true, but someone once told me that flat packing greatly reduces the odds of a line-over..can anyone confirm this? I think it is true that making the 'mistake' is easier to do with a pro-pack. However, I was very suprised when I managed to get a line-over (made the mistake, wasn't careful) last year with my 20 year old flat-stack pack technique. But I still think you are not as likely to screw-up when stacking.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #17 May 21, 2004 Yes, Of course . And do you know that psycho-pack might cause cancer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottjaco 0 #18 May 21, 2004 QuoteI watch people time and again, wrapping the tail with no regard to what the brake lines are doing. Then plop it on the ground, and push the brake lines to toward the nose. After I pull the tail around, I peak inside before wrapping the tail to make sure the lines are still in the center. That way I know when I'm pushing the air out (on the ground) I'm pushing the lines towards the center. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #19 May 21, 2004 QuoteHow does he pack a round? Correction - there is no reason to flat-pack any square canopy. But he was also the DZO, so after flat-packing the round, he would probably say "now go jump it somewhere else" Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #20 May 26, 2004 One old fart to another. Folks in warm climates like to pack inside on carpet and air conditioning. Flat Packing takes up a lot more air conditioned floor space than pro packing. Want to piss people off try flat packing inside. Indoor packing also prevents "unnecessary deteriation to your rig from exposure to UV rays from packing outside." Read some of the for sale ads on this websight and you'll see "never packed outside" as selling pt om used rigs I may be wrong but I think that when the golden knights pack their own rigs some of them flat pack. Even outside on the grass Whats good enough for the night's is good enough for some folks. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #21 May 26, 2004 QuoteCorrection - there is no reason to flat-pack any square canopy. Have you ever jumped a pro packed MT-1X? That might change your mind. Another reason is thats the way I want to pack mine. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites atsaubrey 0 #22 May 26, 2004 yeah...what Sparky said lol"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites damion75 0 #23 May 26, 2004 At my DZ they always tend to teach flat packing first - mainly I think so that students can see what packing is supposed to achieve and how it is done properly before they move on to pro-packing. Flat packing is a good teaching tool.*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #24 May 26, 2004 We have the same practice. Students learn (flat)packing on PD Navigators. Our reasons: 1. not all the instructors can do pro-pack 2. we have 2 checkpoints for students and the first CP cant be applied for pro-pack..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 0 #25 May 26, 2004 Quotemainly I think so that students can see what packing is supposed to achieve and how it is done properly Now what's that supposed to mean? That Flatpack is the "proper" way to pack a ram air canopy? Sorry, but Pro pack (Proper Ram Air Orientation, if i'm not mistaken) is simply folding the canopy in the bag in the same order reversed that it comes out. I was taught propacking during my AFF course and it was explained very well. I have propacked ever since and it makes more sense to me personally than flatpack does. BUT: If i figure it right (and i have never packed Flatpack yet), the only real difference once the canopy is in the dbag is the way the canopy is folded to fit in there. Flatpack puts it folded sideways (a stabilizer form the bottom and top of the cocoon), PRO-pack Front to back (trailing edge forms the outer skin of the cocoon). No big difference, the line groups stay together, and once out of the dbag and un-S-folded (ideally thinking, of course it's already filling up anway), the canopy looks the same either way. I've seen a packing technique that i haven't tried yet but which looked really fast (well, it was a GK who packed it...), clean and neat. It is generally referred to as PRO-Stack (again, if i'm not mistaken) and is also used by some riggers for packing reserves and by people packing their BASE Rigs. In the latter cases clamps are used to keep things in place, but you can do without and pretty fast as well. As long as the canopy sits in the bag in a way so that it gets out in the proper orientation without unnecessary friction of lines against the canopy, canopy tissue on tissue or lines on lines, all is well. Which packing method is used to achieve that does not matter except for personal preference and maybe packing space availability. As for the argument that if packing in the sun is good enough for the GKs, so it should be fine for "the rest", damn, i sure as hell don't get a new rig/canopy as fast as they do... My baby packs in the shade or gets a speeeedy quicky in the sun!The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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slotperfect 7 #14 May 20, 2004 What kind of main canopy are you jumping? What is your primary discipline or focused activity while skydiving?Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
inextremis 0 #15 May 21, 2004 I was having some very snappy openings, occasionally a real dinger, on a Sharpchuter demo canopy that seemed to me a natural to flat pack--large canopy, F-111, etc. So I dug out a manual for Flight Concepts parachutes and it suggested a pro pack (I was also jumping a Stiletto and obviously pro packing that because of the shape). When I tried a pro pack on the Sharpchuter, it really tamed the openings and made them more consistent. And it's faster and takes up less space. Watch those brake lines--same comment about tandems applies when pro packing larger canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #16 May 21, 2004 QuoteI don't know if this is true, but someone once told me that flat packing greatly reduces the odds of a line-over..can anyone confirm this? I think it is true that making the 'mistake' is easier to do with a pro-pack. However, I was very suprised when I managed to get a line-over (made the mistake, wasn't careful) last year with my 20 year old flat-stack pack technique. But I still think you are not as likely to screw-up when stacking.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #17 May 21, 2004 Yes, Of course . And do you know that psycho-pack might cause cancer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #18 May 21, 2004 QuoteI watch people time and again, wrapping the tail with no regard to what the brake lines are doing. Then plop it on the ground, and push the brake lines to toward the nose. After I pull the tail around, I peak inside before wrapping the tail to make sure the lines are still in the center. That way I know when I'm pushing the air out (on the ground) I'm pushing the lines towards the center. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #19 May 21, 2004 QuoteHow does he pack a round? Correction - there is no reason to flat-pack any square canopy. But he was also the DZO, so after flat-packing the round, he would probably say "now go jump it somewhere else" Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #20 May 26, 2004 One old fart to another. Folks in warm climates like to pack inside on carpet and air conditioning. Flat Packing takes up a lot more air conditioned floor space than pro packing. Want to piss people off try flat packing inside. Indoor packing also prevents "unnecessary deteriation to your rig from exposure to UV rays from packing outside." Read some of the for sale ads on this websight and you'll see "never packed outside" as selling pt om used rigs I may be wrong but I think that when the golden knights pack their own rigs some of them flat pack. Even outside on the grass Whats good enough for the night's is good enough for some folks. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 May 26, 2004 QuoteCorrection - there is no reason to flat-pack any square canopy. Have you ever jumped a pro packed MT-1X? That might change your mind. Another reason is thats the way I want to pack mine. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #22 May 26, 2004 yeah...what Sparky said lol"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #23 May 26, 2004 At my DZ they always tend to teach flat packing first - mainly I think so that students can see what packing is supposed to achieve and how it is done properly before they move on to pro-packing. Flat packing is a good teaching tool.*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #24 May 26, 2004 We have the same practice. Students learn (flat)packing on PD Navigators. Our reasons: 1. not all the instructors can do pro-pack 2. we have 2 checkpoints for students and the first CP cant be applied for pro-pack..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #25 May 26, 2004 Quotemainly I think so that students can see what packing is supposed to achieve and how it is done properly Now what's that supposed to mean? That Flatpack is the "proper" way to pack a ram air canopy? Sorry, but Pro pack (Proper Ram Air Orientation, if i'm not mistaken) is simply folding the canopy in the bag in the same order reversed that it comes out. I was taught propacking during my AFF course and it was explained very well. I have propacked ever since and it makes more sense to me personally than flatpack does. BUT: If i figure it right (and i have never packed Flatpack yet), the only real difference once the canopy is in the dbag is the way the canopy is folded to fit in there. Flatpack puts it folded sideways (a stabilizer form the bottom and top of the cocoon), PRO-pack Front to back (trailing edge forms the outer skin of the cocoon). No big difference, the line groups stay together, and once out of the dbag and un-S-folded (ideally thinking, of course it's already filling up anway), the canopy looks the same either way. I've seen a packing technique that i haven't tried yet but which looked really fast (well, it was a GK who packed it...), clean and neat. It is generally referred to as PRO-Stack (again, if i'm not mistaken) and is also used by some riggers for packing reserves and by people packing their BASE Rigs. In the latter cases clamps are used to keep things in place, but you can do without and pretty fast as well. As long as the canopy sits in the bag in a way so that it gets out in the proper orientation without unnecessary friction of lines against the canopy, canopy tissue on tissue or lines on lines, all is well. Which packing method is used to achieve that does not matter except for personal preference and maybe packing space availability. As for the argument that if packing in the sun is good enough for the GKs, so it should be fine for "the rest", damn, i sure as hell don't get a new rig/canopy as fast as they do... My baby packs in the shade or gets a speeeedy quicky in the sun!The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
