Got "talked to" this weekend

[Trae 1]

in reply to "It's not actually a problem that needs solving and it's not even the topic of the thread...that's how far away we've drifted it.

I was just describing to an extent, what happens and why...it's a very rare occurrence and not something people should be losing sleep over.

If you go out of your way to mess up other peoples fun don't be surprised to find your bowling ball in the toilet bowl, it's not the end of the world.

There is no magic button to push automatically banning someone from dropzones worldwide nor should there be one...I for one find it entertaining to see people so up in arms regarding something so obscure, that may happen to someone else... yet have no compunction about putting their life is someones hands whom they may not even know, every time they jump. "
.......................................

I suppose its approaching topic as dumping some-ones reserve is one method of getting '"talked to ".
Thanks for sharing the old school stuff and it may have been appropriate who's to judge...but there has to be a better way to get the message across .

Private chat with strong back-up should work most times if you have clear sense of righteous justice.

I visited a DZ once and a merc fresh back from Somalia was running roughshod over the place. setting his own opening altitudes, in flight transferring, carrying on at night. People were afraid of him cause he had absolutely no fear here and they knew what he had in the trunk of his car.
He was a great guy but they couldn't control him and shouldn't have tried. No-one would sit up and drink with him so he had no respect for them.

I invited him back to our DZ. He was a true champion, and just needed some decent guidance . He found some kindred spirits and his so called bad behaviour disappeared.
If any-one had dumped this guys reserve it would have been explosive.

Oh yes dumping some-ones reserve happens.
It just seems like a totally unpro soap opera way of doing things.... and the effects could be very unpredictable.

[piisfish 135]

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... so at least here, pulling someone's reserve would be a criminal act. One could also sue for damages here.

It could also be "accidental"

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[obelixtim 100]

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I visited a DZ once and a merc fresh back from Somalia was running roughshod over the place. setting his own opening altitudes, in flight transferring,

It would have been simple to sort this guy out. The pilot does not take off if this guy is in the plane.

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carrying on at night. People were afraid of him cause he had absolutely no fear here and they knew what he had in the trunk of his car.
He was a great guy but they couldn't control him and shouldn't have tried. No-one would sit up and drink with him so he had no respect for them.

Rubbish, this guy should have been called on his behaviour by the DZO. No one has to put up with that nonsense, hard man or not.....

If he was threatening people, then it was time for the law to get involved.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[piisfish 135]

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Oh yes dumping some-ones reserve happens.

I heard it happened at a Kenya Boogie, with some nose punching and all. Just sorting some stuff out "old bar fight style", like men...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[nigel99 144]

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I am never sure if it is a good or a bad thing that a modern dz is a business not a club. When I was a member of a skydiving club, it would have been difficult to be refused access as a paid up member.

~The club I started out at had some by-laws that were well above and beyond any USPA recommendations. If you were a member and wanted to jump there you would abide by them or... give up your membership and jump elsewhere.

As a business the dz should be putting the safety of its customers first. This means that duty of care should restrict people, far more than in the club days.

~A club doesn't have the same motivation as a bu$ine$$ to cater to everyone.

No a club doesn't, but in most parts of the western world there are quite strict laws on how business cater for the safety of their clients - rather than the pleasure of their clients. The laws are generally there to temper the desire to make money at all costs.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Skyper 0]

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I am never sure if it is a good or a bad thing that a modern dz is a business not a club. When I was a member of a skydiving club, it would have been difficult to be refused access as a paid up member.

~The club I started out at had some by-laws that were well above and beyond any USPA recommendations. If you were a member and wanted to jump there you would abide by them or... give up your membership and jump elsewhere.

As a business the dz should be putting the safety of its customers first. This means that duty of care should restrict people, far more than in the club days.

~A club doesn't have the same motivation as a bu$ine$$ to cater to everyone.

No a club doesn't, but in most parts of the western world there are quite strict laws on how business cater for the safety of their clients - rather than the pleasure of their clients. The laws are generally there to temper the desire to make money at all costs.

desire to make money is something different from the desire to improve skydiving as a sport.

parachuting becomes "tandem" and "aff" money making machine... and if you relay on "law" to regulate safety you're shifting the development of sport to police and to state... away from actual skydivers...

IMHO tandem should not be considered skydiving, but money making activity.

[rehmwa 2]

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About $75.00 U.S. and an hour or two...about the same time & money it takes to make 3 jumps.

hush - some politician here will see that and decide that low turns will require a fine payable to the community

for the children

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I heard it happened at a Kenya Boogie, with some nose punching and all. Just sorting some stuff out "old bar fight style", like 7 year olds...

FIFY

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nigel99 144]

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parachuting becomes "tandem" and "aff" money making machine... and if you relay on "law" to regulate safety you're shifting the development of sport to police and to state... away from actual skydivers...

I agree entirely and it is the primary reason that skydivers need to take responsibility. There are so very few threads like this where people have got "talked to" and listened. The OP really deserves credit for taking the advice to heart and having the balls to post about it as well.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nbblood 0]

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in reply to "I have pulled another jumper's reserve handle on the ground on purpose.....once. It was quite different than what we're talking about here though. This jumper was jumping an expired reserve pack job....for quite a while. He was aware of it. I told him beforehand that if he didn't get it repacked and I saw him jump it again I was going to pull it. He was putting the pilot and the DZ at risk for disciplinary action."
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Did you pull his reserve handle because you didn't have the power to ground him.?
Just wondering why you didn't just prevent him from jumping that rig (by saying "NO. ,you can't jump that".) and encourage him to get a repack or hire /borrow a different rig or p...o..!

Setting a precedent for tampering with other peoples gear even under the eye of the S&TA is questionable.
The powers that be on a DZ can shut the whole thing down any time they like for whatever reason.
It doesn't give them the right to touch/operate/ take or otherwise mess with individuals equipment.

Perhaps under some circumstances touching other peoples gear is acceptable and necessary but imho never as a disciplinary measure.
The DZ just need to be tight enough to squeeze those pimples out.

You didn't read my whole post did you? If you had you may have read this:

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I met him in the landing area. I discussed it with him.

or this:

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He let me pull the handle without resisting at all. If it had been confrontational I doubt I would have done it. I would've pursued other measures.

or this:

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But I don't advocate pulling handles on an otherwise operational rig to make a point.

or this:

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The jumper took it well and we're still good friends. I'd jump with him tomorrow.

Under different circumstances I never would've done that. If you read beyond the point that pisses you off, you might have got that. This case was me telling a friend, "you're putting other friends at risk. Stop it." In other circumstances, I wouldn't have done it.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[hookitt 0]

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About $75.00 U.S. and an hour or two...about the same time & money it takes to make 3 jumps.

Not true considering it is unlikely a rigger will stop what he's doing and pack the rig right then and there. A week should do it. Drop it off and pick it up the following weekend.

I might do it though, right after I accidentally lose the offending ripcord pullers cutaway handle.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Rubbish, this guy should have been called on his behaviour by the DZO. No one has to put up with that nonsense, hard man or not.....

If he was threatening people, then it was time for the law to get involved. "
........................................

Sure you might be right. In this day and age let the coppers sort it out.Calling the police to sort out DZ behaviour is rarely a good idea and when you do you give your self policing power away like a whuffo would.

In the good old days, when skydiving world effectively policed itself, a lot of DZ's had a resident jumper who moonlighted as a policeperson.

Most the DZ's I jumped at also had a strong military presense. Out of control crap only happened when these people weren't around.

I've seen uncountable situations defused without involving the police. I've defused quite a few myself having learnt from experts.

If you call the coppers on a fellow jumper , they will deal with things very differently than some-one who cares about you.

[millertime24 8]

This will be my last post in this thread.

This thread was supposed to be an educational/informative thread with the purposes of both "here's how I screwed up so others can learn from it" and "here's an effective way of informing an offending jumper to alter their behavior". In fine dz.com fashion, it has come to mindless bickering.

To that end I will NO LONGER post anything safety related that I learn on this site (and I would discourage others from doing the same due to the jackassery). I will continue to discuss safety related things that may be brought to my attention VIA PM's, but this entire forum can eat a dick as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure I would jump with most (if not all) of you guys who posted here and even buy you a beer after the last wheels up. It's discouraging that we can't have a discussion online as we would in real life.

When I posted this, I did so in good faith that we could discuss and educate others the danger of complacency and how to approach someone in a constructive way.

This can't be done here.

Blue and Safe Skies to everyone,

-Michael Miller
-USPA C-38793

Muff #5048

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

I hope you reconsider.

Yes, there is a lot of bullshit here. There is a ton of it in this thread.
It distracts from, but does not eliminate the very, very valuable lesson here.

And I appreciate that you took the time and effort to at least try to share your experience.

Just like everywhere else, if you let the jackasses run you off, they win. If you ignore them and continue doing what's right, everyone else wins.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wildcard451 0]

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I hope you reconsider.

Yes, there is a lot of bullshit here. There is a ton of it in this thread.
It distracts from, but does not eliminate the very, very valuable lesson here.

And I appreciate that you took the time and effort to at least try to share your experience.

Just like everywhere else, if you let the jackasses run you off, they win. If you ignore them and continue doing what's right, everyone else wins.

No, he's right. This website has long since outlived its usefulness with proper education.

[ridestrong 1]

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I hope you reconsider.

Yes, there is a lot of bullshit here. There is a ton of it in this thread.
It distracts from, but does not eliminate the very, very valuable lesson here.

And I appreciate that you took the time and effort to at least try to share your experience.

Just like everywhere else, if you let the jackasses run you off, they win. If you ignore them and continue doing what's right, everyone else wins.

No, he's right. This website has long since outlived its usefulness with proper education.

Agreed... While you can still find some useful information here, too many threads end up this way and it's truly PATHETIC!!

Ultimately dz.com is for entertainment only. These guys that run around here that seem to think they are the only one's worthy of commenting on posts, belittling other posters, etc... are a joke.

As for the topics in this thread.... The OP f'd up and put it here for discussion/learning purposes and now he regrets it, and you can't blame him. As for 'pulling someones reserve handle' to reprimand them, it is a completely childish action. Any/all dz issues should be able to be resolved with a 'talking to' by a qualified employee of the dz. If not, ban the jumper.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[piisfish 135]

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As for 'pulling someones reserve handle' to reprimand them, it is a completely childish action. Any/all dz issues should be able to be resolved with a 'talking to' by a qualified employee of the dz. If not, ban the jumper.

Yes, but pulling handles and stuff while make memories for us when we will be old farts like half the age of Twardo, and we will have more interesting things than "remember when in 2012 XXX jumper got his feelings hurt by the DZO..." to write in the "scary old stories" thread

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[airtwardo 6]

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As for 'pulling someones reserve handle' to reprimand them, it is a completely childish action. Any/all dz issues should be able to be resolved with a 'talking to' by a qualified employee of the dz. If not, ban the jumper.

Yes, but pulling handles and stuff while make memories for us when we will be old farts like half the age of Twardo, and we will have more interesting things than "remember when in 2012 XXX jumper got his feelings hurt by the DZO..." to write in the "scary old stories" thread

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ridestrong 1]

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As for 'pulling someones reserve handle' to reprimand them, it is a completely childish action. Any/all dz issues should be able to be resolved with a 'talking to' by a qualified employee of the dz. If not, ban the jumper.

Yes, but pulling handles and stuff while make memories for us when we will be old farts like half the age of Twardo, and we will have more interesting things than "remember when in 2012 XXX jumper got his feelings hurt by the DZO..." to write in the "scary old stories" thread

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[frontloop33 1]

I also got talked to this weekend:

Right after opening, I was heading towards another skydiver.
He was about 50-100 m / 170-350 ft below me, so I decided I can fly over him: Me heading west - he heading east.

An other reason beside the altitude difference was, that his canopy was way smaller than mine (135 sqft vs. 210 sqft), so he should descend faster than me (which leads to more vertical separation)...

After landing, he was not very happy about me flying over him... We talked about that (without pulling any handles ;-) )

Well, I know, that making a turn and flying away would have been the safest choice, but I thought there was enough space between us...

So: What distance between two canopys is safe and what distance is too close?

[Skyper 0]

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Right after opening, I was heading towards another skydiver.

how much horizontal separation did you guys have?

[frontloop33 1]

I think about 300m / 1000 ft right after opening, but it's a little hard to judge.

[Andy9o8 0]

At 55 jumps, you're soaking up new learning like a sponge. There are at least 2 valuable lessons you've learned from this experience. What lessons do you think you have learned from this?

[frontloop33 1]

1. more horizontal separation: Better tracking when doing RW or leave more time/space at the exit, when going solo.

2. If you see someone coming towards you, make a turn (90° to your right) and go away, even when you think you are not really close together and there is plenty of space left.

[wmw999 2,130]

Andy's response to your post was perfect. And your response was also perfect. The only thing more perfect would have been if you had learned even more lessons (but he only asked for 2).

I just love a happy ending.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)