Going stowed comfort level?

[dhracer33 0]

As the the altitude of my stowed jumps is creeping lower and lower, I'm starting to wonder what other people are comfortable with. Where have others drawn the line of what height they will no longer stow their pilot chute and choose to go hand-held instead. This is regardless of pilot chute size, as long as it's stowed it counts. I'm pretty sure my limit is going to be 300', I've worked down to 330' with plenty of canopy time so I think 300' is a good, safe number. Where have you drawn the line?.........

[HN1 0]

I think you should try going stowed from 200 i think it will work and ill video.
Later
Ryan

Skydiving is borring!!

[Faber 0]

i have 165ish jumps and lowest stowed you see me is 400ft. personaly i see no reasson(unless the object or winds require)to be stowed lower. but im not into arials anyway...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Rauk 0]

Peraonally (in my limited experience) I will go hand held anything under 325', just for the same reason as Faber said... but, there is a time when going stowed is more safe and even necessary. Sketchy exits being a big factor or exits where you need both hands. I also have gone stowed from 300' and would consider lower in the future but it was and would be for the reason of aerials. You always have to factor in the possibility for a PC hesitation that is normally eliminated by the hand held setup. Everything could go great 50 times, and then you might have that little hesitation that will put you considerably lower than before. So I think there is a place for going stowed and then sometimes it is just someone thinking maybe it looks cool. Don't know really, just my two cents.
Have fun
Adam

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

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You always have to factor in the possibility for a PC hesitation that is normally eliminated by the hand held setup. Everything could go great 50 times, and then you might have that little hesitation that will put you considerably lower than before.

>>That's very, very real. That can ruin your life and it's something you need to think seriously about when making the decision to go stowed

[NickDG 23]

Bob Sinclair (the skydiver) came to an early Bridge Day (when most of us are still going hand held) where he jumped his ripcord, spring loaded pilot chute, skydiving rig and we all snickered at his choice of gear.

He mentioned later that our problem is all these loose pilot chutes and bridles flapping about. (In those days zapped rigs around the launch point are common, and there always seemed to be someone re-closing a rig).

He flat out said we should be going stowed. Yeah, all right old man, and we just snickered some more.

Who's snickering now . . .?

NickD BASE 194

[sum1sneaky 0]

Of course we all know now, that a PC can hesitate even when it was hand held. http://www.blackopselite.com/skydive/late-open.WMV

[Rauk 0]

Ah yes, how true that is. Scary, but oh so true. Hey, how are things going by the way?
Adam

[Rauk 0]

I was just thinking of an email I got from a helpful friend of mine that was written by Dwain on the phases of inflation of the pilot chute. I have a crappy email form of it, but, Tom, do you happen to have a halfway easy to upload copy by chance?

[TomAiello 25]

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Tom, do you happen to have a halfway easy to upload copy by chance?

I believe what you're looking for his here in the midst of the fatality discussion on BLiNC.

For those not wishing to wade through the full discussion, the relevant part is below:

Quote

it is necessary to first outline the different stages of deployment from p/c release to full canopy inflation. The example given here is for a slider removed square (phase 1-6) or for a round canopy packed without a diaper (phase 1-5).

Phase 1: Pilot Chute (p/c) is released
Phase 2: p/c reaches bridle stretch
Phase 3: p/c inflates
Phase 4: p/c extracts canopy to line stretch (there are multiple sub-stages here such as container opening, extraction of canopy from container and lifting of the canopy to line stretch)
Phase 5: canopy achieves bottom skin inflation (there are multiple sub-stages here)
Phase 6: canopy achieves cell pressurization (there are multiple sub-stages here).

Or is that not the one you were looking for?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[badenhop 0]

Unknown nugget: "If you can go, you can stow".
It's really up to your own comfort level.
Personally, when doing backflips off a 260' guyed A,
I prefer to have the PC stowed.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[NickDG 23]

>>Unknown nugget: "If you can go, you can stow". <<

Not unknown, Brother . . .

I said that when we first started getting away from going hand held.

Sure, any BASE jump you can do hand held, you can do stowed, but allow me to say something in hindsight.

Sometimes, what I say is lost on the masses, because I fail to pay attention to the masses, especially when I'm trying to sound pithy.

The bottom line is what I said is true, but only when you know what the heck you are doing.

It doesn't apply to people who are just fiddling around and hoping it all just all turns out right . . .

NickD BASE 194

[TomAiello 25]

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Sure, any BASE jump you can do hand held, you can do stowed...

There ain't no way I'm going stowed from 170'.

Hand held? Ok. Stowed? No how, no way.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[badenhop 0]

Thanks, nice to know where it came from.
Another jumper from your heyday era gave me the quote,
he just couldn't remember where he'd heard it.
You're right, knowing how and when to do or not do counts.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[NickDG 23]

Tom,

It's a matter of degrees. I did a jump from 120-feet over hard ground and for one or two seconds I was looking very good and then in the third second I looked like an idiot and broke myself into a thousand little pieces . . .

So for me, meaning you can stow all the time, doesn't mean on everything, every time, and for everybody. I sometimes forget that people reading what I write won't be able to grasp that. Thanks for setting me straight. I'm as guilty as anyone when remembering what this site is all about.

I am, however, responsible enough to hit delete on about 50 percent of what I write here.

I'm saving all that deleted stuff for the book . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Rauk 0]

Ah, but thinking more, it wasn't the pc that hesitated, it was a hangup on the stow.

[Ronald 0]

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Of course we all know now, that a PC can hesitate even when it was hand held. http://www.blackopselite.com/skydive/late-open.WMV

Seems to me this is not a valid video in the discussion. Clearly, the PC is inflated, so we what we are seeing is a PC in tow (for whatever reason). We are not seeing any proof of quicker inflation of the PC in the stowed - hand held discusion.

Just my 2 cents,

Ronald Overdijk
wwww.liveskyproductions.nl

[subterminal 0]

Technicalities aside: I used to go stowed from our local cliff, which is 63 meters to impact, and slightly taller when you give it a good run. One day when a friend and I felt particularly brave, we decided to do a two-way. He went hand held, and I stowed. To my great surprise, I found myself hanging with my feet on level with his canopy on opening. To the best of our knowledge, we exited and deployed simultaneously. (He jumped a fox 245, and I a mojo 240, both weighing more or less the same +/- 2 kg at). We found that quite interesting at the time, but of course we didn’t have any video to analyse.

Now that I’m not that current, I would prefer to go hand held. Though there are some aspects that aren’t really favourable with going stowed from lower objects, I personally think it gives a lot nicer feeling having both arms free both on the exit point, and exit.

[DexterBase 0]

My personal thoughts on going stowed:

* I won't go stowed below 300 feet above the point I need a flying canopy at. Not necessarily 300 feet to impact. If opening below a certain point means I will not make my landing area and will probably land in trees or other undesirable stuff, then I treat that as the deck for all practical purposes. If the exit point is 200 feet above the point where I need a flying canopy to make a landing area, then I'll go handheld and treat it like a lower jump.

* I won't exit stowed from less than 300 feet to impact. If the exit point is at 300 feet, I will go stowed. If the exit point is 299 feet, I will go handheld. This is a line that exists for me and I respect it. I don't ever want to play the game where I'm moving my hard deck to go stowed lower and lower, based on the success of previous jumps. The possibility of a PC hesitation exists independent of PC performance on prior jumps. The fact that you've done 50 jumps stowed from 300 feet and never had a PC hesitation does not mean you won't experience on on your next jump, all else equal. 300 feet, I'll go stowed. 299 feet, handheld. Your mileage may vary.

* PC hesitations cost you altitude in a big way. Acceleration is exponential. Wasting valuable time up high will burn you lower. Encourage the PC to work right by eliminating some causes of PC hesitations. Just by going stowed you've chosen to open much lower than going handheld.

* Don't stow PC's larger than 46" ever. If you need a 48" PC, you should probably go handheld anyway. Stowing a PC increases the chances that you'll experience a hesitation. This tendency seems to correspond, to a degree, with PC diameter. Larger PC's will hesitate more often than a smaller, lighter PC.

* If you're stowing a 46" PC, repack the pilot chute just prior to exit if practical. This will help reduce the chances of a hesitation.

* Use the super mushroom. I'm not convinced it reduces PC hesitations, as I haven't made enough jumps using it to have a large data sample, but so far I haven't experienced a (noticeable) PC hesitation while using it. It certainly won't increase the chances of a hesitation.

* Even if you do all the above, it might hesitate and you'll know it more the lower you chose to exit stowed.

[skreamer 1]

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* Don't stow PC's larger than 46" ever.

I was taught not to go stowed with anything bigger than a 42", even now with my limited experience that still seems like good advice.

[TomAiello 25]

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To my great surprise, I found myself hanging with my feet on level with his canopy on opening.

Why did this surprise you?

Pre-Vtec FOXes had noticeable inflation waves at low airpseed (mojo's did that little hop thing instead). Back in the day, I had a long conversation about it with Slim (this is just when he and DW first demonstrated to disbelieving Americans that 175' cliffs were ok to freefall), and he flat out told me that he wouldn't take a FOX off that cliff because he was worried about the inflation. DW later confirmed that he wouldn't do so either. I believe this was one of the driving forces in the release of bottom skin inlets to the mass market.

I'd say the big thing you experienced was a difference in low airspeed inflation between the two canopies.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

My personal thoughts on going stowed:

* I won't go stowed below 300 feet above the point I need a flying canopy at. Not necessarily 300 feet to impact. If opening below a certain point means I will not make my landing area and will probably land in trees or other undesirable stuff, then I treat that as the deck for all practical purposes. If the exit point is 200 feet above the point where I need a flying canopy to make a landing area, then I'll go handheld and treat it like a lower jump.

* I won't exit stowed from less than 300 feet to impact. If the exit point is at 300 feet, I will go stowed. If the exit point is 299 feet, I will go handheld. This is a line that exists for me and I respect it. I don't ever want to play the game where I'm moving my hard deck to go stowed lower and lower, based on the success of previous jumps. The possibility of a PC hesitation exists independent of PC performance on prior jumps. The fact that you've done 50 jumps stowed from 300 feet and never had a PC hesitation does not mean you won't experience on on your next jump, all else equal. 300 feet, I'll go stowed. 299 feet, handheld. Your mileage may vary.

* PC hesitations cost you altitude in a big way. Acceleration is exponential. Wasting valuable time up high will burn you lower. Encourage the PC to work right by eliminating some causes of PC hesitations. Just by going stowed you've chosen to open much lower than going handheld.

* Don't stow PC's larger than 46" ever. If you need a 48" PC, you should probably go handheld anyway. Stowing a PC increases the chances that you'll experience a hesitation. This tendency seems to correspond, to a degree, with PC diameter. Larger PC's will hesitate more often than a smaller, lighter PC.

* If you're stowing a 46" PC, repack the pilot chute just prior to exit if practical. This will help reduce the chances of a hesitation.

* Use the super mushroom. I'm not convinced it reduces PC hesitations, as I haven't made enough jumps using it to have a large data sample, but so far I haven't experienced a (noticeable) PC hesitation while using it. It certainly won't increase the chances of a hesitation.

* Even if you do all the above, it might hesitate and you'll know it more the lower you chose to exit stowed.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[K763 0]

Yeah, isn't the delete key a wonderful thing? I can't wait to read that book, it will be choice!

K

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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As the the altitude of my stowed jumps is creeping lower and lower, I'm starting to wonder what other people are comfortable with.

I like to go hand-held for slider down and stowed for slider up.

I wonder about the pilot chute influencing heading and therefore like the idea that all of my pilot chute tosses are what's worked well before.

Slider up the object is farther away so it matters less.

[sabre210 0]

If i go handheld from around the 350ft mark i ususally take a good delay, if i go stowed i usually under delay by half a second. That's the confidence difference in having it in your hand i suppose.

I don't have any hard and fast rules, i just go with how i feel on the day. I do know i have yet to go stowed below 300ft though.

I've had a pilot chute inflation hesitation from a stowed 350ft bridge jump which although it didn't put me right down there gave me pause for thought.

I'm comfortable where i am at the moment and haven't got plans to change anything soon...but i'll never say never.