pirana

This part is old news. Read Class by Paul Fussell. Accuratre and funny. Even though the statement is old news, good to see they understand that class is about so much more than money. But then he goes off and talks mostly about having money. Need to look beyond money to understand class and the behaviors of each. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

3 trips come to mind. 1 - Non-stop, Phoenix to St Cloud MN. 2 - Non-stop, New Orleans to Chicago, much of the return trip in a nasty freezing rainstorm, returning from Mardi Gras. 3 - Many, many stops; St Cloud to New Orleans; then back 3 days later. Mardi Gras again. However, none qualify as the 1st two were with a partner taking turns driving, and #3 was hitchhiked both ways. Grueling, but memorable for the fun and adventure of all 3 trips. Solo? Drove between St Cloud & Chicago so many times while in colege I can still recognize most of the exits. It's only about 500 miles but it became as casual for me as a lazy afternoon drive. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

He's a bit of a nut on the details, but he has the principles needed for the future. We may have to go with a nut, eventually, in order to break the continuing same old same old. The biggest problem is that very few people, and it appears none of our leaders, are willing to recognize that the world has changed so significantly that the same old shit simply will not play. There was a serious attempt back in the mid to late 90's to address the approaching trainwreck with Social Security and welfare in general. The commission reported back that, despite the inevitability of said trainwreck, they could come up with no viable solutions that would be palatable to the US public, and certainly none that any candidate could embrace and still get elected. So there it is. Our candidates pander to us to get elected, then get into office and find they have been given an impossible task. It is going to take somebody REALLY outside the box to get things rolling, and the public is either going to have to suck it up and play their part, or enjoy the trainwreck. It's like a Greek tragedy; there is so much wrong, but nobody wants to change (or sees their role in the problem), so the inevitability of the wreck starts to become acceptable. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That's cool. The big numbers I (and others) bitch and scream about are difficult to get a grasp on. This works, and I'm gonna steal it. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

"Correct" is a bit too vague. There are those that think the correct strategy would be to keep doing the same old shit - probably most people, since humans really dislike change no matter what they claim. I think the goal should be honest relationships. I know; I'm probably seen as a fool for even suggesting such a thing. But if healthy long-term mutually beneficial relationships are a goal, then the correct tactics would certainly not look anything like what our current leaders practice (all countries - not just the USA). So outside of my dream world I'd say there is almost no chance humans will ever honestly try to live together peacefully with people not like themselves. The temptation to manipulate others for material gain is too strong. We simply are still too much like the vulgar, greedy, violent beasts from which we evolved. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Too funny. Thread is not even a page long yet and we already have: - Global warming accused of being a cult or religion - A slam on Bush - Left field comment about Satan owning the US auto industry - People concerned for the environment as a cult - An accusation of fascism - A plug for VW - A slam at Obama. I'm really disappointed Hitler was not mentioned. Merry Christmas everyone. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So this is what success looks like, heh? Comparing to the Great Depression is hyperbole; almost like playing the Hitler card in other threads. Nothing we have gone thru since then is even in the same league as far as the amount of wealth wiped out, number of unemployed, number of homeless, duration, etc. The one thing that may be worse is the length of recovery. There just aren't the easy pickins' there were following WWII. Anyone claiming with certainty to have stopped another Great Depression is full of it. No way to be certain we would have went there, no way to be certain if we were that what they did stopped it. It's like me claiming to have stopped a virus outbreak by using Zicam. Prove I didn't; and show me the facts that prove with certainty we were headed for something as bad as the Great Depression, and that with certainty prove Obama stopped it. Others (maybe you) have claimed the stimulus was way too small, far less than what was needed, not enough, etc. Now the claim is that it was enough to head off a Great Depression. Which was it? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Aha! War on Christmas! Holy Shit! I've gotten too much exposure to generic holiday terminology. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Hard to believe Gingrich would beat Obama. He's too close to being a bona fide fundamentalist. My perception is that even amongst the conservative crowd he's just a bit too extreme and appeals to a relatively narrow set of voters. No way he can get a majority of the vote - his only hope would be if a 3rd party candidate somewhere between him and Obama on the spectrum steals more from Obama than Gingrich. IMO, nominating Gingrich would pretty much hand the election to Obama. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Silly people. Keep electing professional politicians and the one thing you can be very certain of is that there will NOT be any fundamental change. Ever notice how many, upon leaving office, fill us in on how broken D.C is, and how our country has basically been sold to lobbyists, contributors, special interest groups - whatever you want to call them. Campaign reform is another common topic for which they confess needs attention badly but which is never given any teeth. But how many of them actually do something while in office? It's a big joke. They keep everybody busy quibbling over moral issues while laughing all the way to the bank. They keep the public well supplied with social-issue fodder - while they raid our finances nearly without consequence. Doesn't matter whether you vote red or blue; if you do the jokes on you. Go ahead, vote in another slate of professional office holders and see how much things don't change - - again. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That's an understatement. I wonder how likely a person will be to follow that procedure in this part of the country, on a day with -20F temperatures. So I guess we try to only break them on nice warm days. Ah, what the hell, what's a little mercury when you've got ". . . poison in the water and the whole world's in a trance." " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Funny thing is, my utility company's rate hikes seem to always stay one step ahead of my attempts to reduce our useage. I've been switching to CFL's, gotten much better at getting family to only keep lights on as necessary, upgrading to more efficient appliances, using far fewer holiday lights & using them for less time, and so on and so forth. My electric bill has NEVER gone down. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So all white people living in the US are racist? That's as racist a point of view as they come. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Move far enough south so you can work more than 5 or 6 months per year, be prepared to live a frugal lifestyle, make the tent a really good one (it may be your home long term). " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

BTW - who are you going to give the trllions of dollars to once it is printed up? Corporations - Oh hell yea, they have demonstrated such good financial stewardship. Given the choice they'd probably invest it overseas and send a few million more jobs out of the country. Government - less corrupt maybe, but also with no incentive in the form of market forces to spend wisely. Can't believe I just used Government and spend wisely in the same sentence. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Way off on that one. Just 2 things, interest on the debt plus welfare payments, will exceed total tax revenues by 2030. Then there is all the other stuff, plus the fact we keep increasing spending. A more realistic estimate of when we hit the wall on paper is more like the late 20-teens to early 2020's. I don't think that will happen though because the social pain will become intolerable long before we actually cease to function financially as a whole. There is no set formula for how fucked up an economy must be before social upheaval sets in. Maybe when 1/10th of a percent own 99.99% of the wealth? Maybe when the debt is 3 times GDP? Maybe when spending is 3 times revenue? Maybe we should investigate why there is a lack of growth and persistent unemployment despite record corporate profits. We grew up with the bullshit mantra that what was good for GM was good for America. What a fucking crock that turned out to be. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

One of the common defenses of their position is to point to the completely opposite end of the spectrum as the only alternative. As in - If we are not allowed to accumulate as much wealth as possible by whatever means possible, society will break down and everyone will be miserable. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Why is there a tree in the middle of the lake? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

That is like the ultimate sound-byte. Two unrelated but controversial topics linked together in a random comparison. I think I can do better: You don't have to spend all day at the truck stop to know there is something wrong with our country when Hare Krishna's can hawk their books at the mall all day but my kids aren't allowed to join the dodgeball league at the local YMCA. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

So approximately how much do you think the government should print and spend? (Keeping in mind it will be added to the $15 trillion existing debt). I do agree that tax cuts will largely be used to keep heads above water, and maybe pay down some debt. Strange statement about Economics as a moral concept. Don't understand what you mean. Economics is more than a - it is a field of study, and a behavioral science at that. It is the study of how people produce and use resources. Elaborate on what you meant by declaring it not a moral concept. I do not think we are in this situation just because of the government addiction to spending. Plenty of other causes involved, including but not limited to: 1 - An intergenerational system of transferring wealth as a means to ensure nobody is destitute in old age. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but got structured in a way that made it very difficult to adjust when needed - like right now. 2 - Allowing a rich corporatacracy to basically hijack our legal and financial systems for their personal benefit. 3 - The shortcomings of democratic institutions when they are used by voting blocks to essentially steal from others. 4 - The I-want-it-now-and-I-want-it-cheap (or free), flavor-of-the-day, throwaway, conspicuously consuming, wasteful nature of our entitlement society. 5 - An absolute refusal by almost everyone to recognize that our place in the world economy has to change dramatically. Nobody wants to let go of anything and we continue to prop ourselves up with various contrivances of false wealth (.com, real estate). In earlier times (WWII thru the 70's), when we didn't really have much competition, we got away with numbers 1 thru 4; and probably could have gotten away with just printing trillions of dollars if that were to suit our needs. Not gonna fly today. So no; it's not that our government does not know how to act responsibly. Almost nobody does. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

UK pushed out? Might as well kick out Germany & France? It appears to me the UK has opted out more than anything. And they are not the economic powerhouse, just the tranaction clearinghouse. Germany is the current economic muscle. And they decry the calls for austerity? Maybe they want the smoke and mirrors treatment our leadership in the US is selling these days. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I wouldn't go that far; but they are a shining example of why buyer-beware capitalism combined with a corporate ruling class is not a sustainable model. They appear to be completely deviod of ethics. They have broken so many laws we know about that it is probably a safe bet they've broken many many more. Great for the owners of capital - sucks for most everybody. IMO, they are the poster child for what's wrong with our economy. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

Oh great; now all the teenagers who couldn't get their parents to buy into the whole virgin birth thing (Mary's parents must have been the most gullible dufuses in all of Bethlehem) are going to start claiming they found the baby under a rock. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

This is so fucking contrived. It is almost as bad as the assinine press releases that come from the worst of the Middle East hellholes. Where is the sentence mentioning running capitalist devil dogs? The Soviets concerned with another countries totalitarian bent? Are they kidding? " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

I agree. Default to full suffrage. I can't see it causing any harm. It appears as more of a punishment than a protection of our election process. Also, hard to imagine them voting as a block, Unless someone goes after the criminal vote, or the insane vote, or the criminally insane vote - it won't matter much. Not allowing certain people to vote is only a rung down from jailing them (or labeling them) so that they can not vote. " . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley