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Wow, He was a great guy! He was one of my first instructors at Clewiston in the 90s, and even filmed me skydiving in the mid 1990s. God bless him. I remember him as an avid birder too. His photography of birds of prey and eagles was stellar. BSBD

At least he spares us the math involved and gives simplified explanations.

Trying to close out Height so if I missed something please kick in a reference. I welcome any critiques. Previous Height REF- DZ post #62990 https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024687 Previous Height Update REF- DZ post #63008 https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024826 Sorry for the long post but just trying to be exhaustive on height.. Height Update Final Verified Standing Observations: Flo - 6'0 in her interview Flo - 6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54 Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno Tina - 6' second interview Philly Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1+ Denis Lysne - ticket agent - 5'10 or 5’11 Nancy House - No recorded statement of height Likely Standing Observation : Alice - 6'1 Verified Seated Observations: Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10 Robert Gregory - 5'9 Labissoniere - 5'10 Cord Spreckel - 5'10 Ckret- 5'10 to 6'1 Overall take on height : Cooper’s Height is clearly segmented. With the exception of Denis Lynse, those that observed Cooper standing put him at 6' - 6’1. Tina in her initial Reno interview provided a range of 5’10-6' but ultimately provided no range just a flat 6' in her final Philly interview. Hal, Flo and Alice all at one time put Cooper at 6’1. Flo revised her initial reported 6’1 in her notes lowering him to 6ft from her SEA- TAC interview. Flow and Alice’s estimates of height were in all likelihood provided within 1 hour of being in Coopers presence. Where Tina's initial recall on height was provided more than 3+ hours after last contact. Those that observed Cooper seated place him at roughly 5’10. Robert Gregory the only witness whom put him on the low side of 5’9 noted that he observed Cooper in a posture of being sunk-down in his seat, slouched. Bill Mitchell whom provided a range of 5’9-5’10 predominantly observed Cooper from the vantage of looking across one empty seat, an isle, and past Tina to see Cooper seated in the middle seat. There is nothing that indicates Bill observed Cooper other than form a seated position. Both Robert Gregory and Labissoniere observed Cooper while they went to the lavatory. Estimated Duration and Quality of Observation Hal Williams – 5 to 35+ minutes between 2:05- 2:40+ – Observation was people watching. This is almost exclusively an observation. This appears to be an idle moment where Hal was not occupied with servicing customers. Standing by the gate Hal is observing the passengers to pass the time, “people watching”. His full attention appears to have been on Cooper as he singled Cooper out from the crowd specifically for his dress and for his demeaner. This means Hal established a base line observation of the crowd and isolated Cooper by his attire and by his behavior relative to the crowd. Possibly of all the witnesses, Hal’s observation on Cooper’s height was the longest. We do not know how much time Hal himself was at the gate nor do we know how much time Cooper was at the gate. The perspective of Hal’s observation was relative to others and without a scale distortion from inside the cabin. There was potentially an observation relative to Himself as Cooper exited the gate area at boarding, or handed Hal his ticket to rip out a stub. Denis Lynse – 2-5 minutes. Observation was a service interaction. Sometime after 2pm and likely concluding within 3-5 minutes. Denis has a perspective relative to oneself at a distance of 2-3 ft form behind a ticket counter. The position of a ticket agent is about service and thru put. You process passengers and collect fares. There was a “Long line” noted as having formed prior to this interaction with Cooper. Lynse in qualifying a Long line in his statement was likely running behind and very expeditious in handling Cooper. As lines build there is a natural urgency to process individuals quicker. This interaction began with a greeting, Cooper stating destination, Denis asking is that one way or round trip, Any bags, your name, that’ll be $20, Cooper reaching into pocket- billfold and providing exact change, one of them filling out the Ticket name, adding Dan Cooper to a flight manifest, print/stamp /issue the ticket, concluding with Denis directing the passenger to the gate. I think it is safe to presume that under normal conditions this interaction could have been accomplished well under 5 minutes and under rushed conditions likely between 2-3 minutes. This was not as much of an observation as it was an ordinary customer interaction. Flo 1 – 5+ minutes - Observation was a Greeting, conversation & fitting harness. Flo’s perspective was on the tarmac - in the open, upon approach and relative to oneself. Greeting of 2 -10+ seconds @ boarding Asking questions while putting on Harness/parachute maybe within the 2 -5+ minute range Cooper was putting on the parachute in front of Flo and likely in front of Alice. Flo may have been asking him questions about his final destination and if the girls were going with him or could get off. This conversation may have occurred while he was putting on the harness for the chute which may be why she indicates his attention dropped from her questioning. Also there are several moments where Cooper may have been standing in her presence. When she observed him acting child like, when he told Flo to pick up the ransom, when he reached into his pocket and tried to hand flow a tip. After he had put on the harness and back parachute he likely did not take a seat immediately. Tina 1- 3+ minutes, she observed Coops standing 3 times minimum. 1) In her initial statement Tina said she only saw him stand when he went to the lavatory. It’s possible she was sitting next to him, isle seat, and had to get up to let him out for his trip to the lavatory. 2) In her second interview she stated that they both went to the airstairs control panel at takeoff. Standing next to him Tina gave him instructions and they both took their seats. 3) Last observation was seeing him “standing in the isle” as she drew the curtain and pleaded with him to take the bomb or disarm it. Although this is at a distance and presumed under dim lighting conditions. There are also moments of Tinas interaction which have enough movement to be interpreted as not likely being conducted form a seated position. Wrapping the bank bag, cutting up the parachute, inspecting the 4 chutes, there is quite a bit of movement in these actions. It is hard to imagine removing a parachute and paracord from a container without standing up. further it is hard to imagine wrapping 14 feet of paracord around a bag top to bottom side to side, form a seated position. I personally have an image of him kneeling in the isle to cannibalize these shroud lines with his pocket knife. But that’s my imagination. Tina may have seen him stand during these actions. Also his isle became quite crowded as Tina brought him more stuff, his Case, a harness, 4 parachutes ,the ransom, an unpacked parachute. It’s natural to think that he may have stood up spread these items out a bit and organize himself infront of Flo or Tina. The unpacked parachute came to rest draped over Row 17 across the isle and one row up form 18E which Cooper occupied. A Back type parachute came to rest across the isle in seat 18B. there is no question Cooper stood to move these items but when during Tina’s presence or after she went to the Cabin. I also imagine, that after the harness and back parachute were on Cooper may have stood for a while or that he would have changed his posture and sat more upright on the edge of the seat rather than relaxing with the back chute on against the seat back. This changes the way in which Tina would observe his posture from being slouched to upright. Alice’s Observation may have been close to what Flo observed 1-5+ min If Flo’s interview is sequential then Alice may have been present for Florence’s questioning of Cooper on destination and if the stewardesses were going /could exit. Like Flo, Alice may have observed Cooper standing while putting on the parachute. Seated Observations – Bill Mitchell – Observation intermittent over nearly the entire duration of the flight Observation was looking across an isle and past Tina. He was not suspicious of Cooper but took an interest in him. Bill himself may have only observed Cooper while he himself was seated. Mitchell is 6’2” – 220lbs and noted that Cooper seemed smaller than him that he felt he could have yanked him out of his seat if he wanted. Cooper had a medium build. Robert Gregory 1-2 minutes Observed of Cooper in passing as he went to the lavatory. Had one hard look at him when deplaning at distance of 4+ rows. Noted Cooper appeared to be a short individual but that his posture was slouched down in seat. Labissoniere 2-5 minutes Observed Cooper in passing several as he went to the lavatory. He was blocked once coming out to the lavatory and observed an interaction between Tina, the Cowboy and Cooper. Took notice of Cooper. He is reported as having some suspicion of Cooper. Cord Spreckle – 2-4 minutes. Observed Cooper from where he was seated which was the left of the plane two rows from the rear. May have further observed Cooper when he moved seats forward while circling SEA-TAC. 10 minutes after takeoff he thought there was a problem. He indicated some suspicion in seeing Tina on the phone constantly. My take on height is still that Cooper's range is 5'11-6'1, my sweet spot is that he was 6ft. I have significantly greater confidence in those witnesses that observed him standing vs seated estimates of his height. Hal seems to have had the best observation with Flo placing second followed by Alice or Tina, IMO.

Georger. You made it clear that Gunther made the whole thing up. No need to worry yourself and be part of this piece of the conversation.

PDX had one

block heaters also are common in Western Canada, Alberta etc. People in the far north, arctic etc often leave their vehicles running 24/7 as they may not start again when shut off, especially when it is -40 or below.

D = Do exp(-Q/kT) You're welcome.

So where are the stamp dna test reports ? Available to the public or only to officials in North Korea ? I want to see the data! One rumor claims two male donors ?

Carl “Smitty” Smith born August 24, 1948 in Miami Florida to Thelma and Eugene Smith of Belle Glade, died September 25, 2021. He was a longtime resident of Palm Beach County and most recently a resident of Landrum, South Carolina. He was retired from a long career in the construction industry, but his lifelong passion was skydiving. He was an instructor in Indiantown and Clewiston, FL, and a well-respected member of the skydiving community, where he impacted many individuals with his patience, quiet demeanor, and professionalism. He always took time to nurture people new to the sport, and was working with new jumpers up until the day he died. His newest skydive family was in Chester, SC. Another passion of his was photography, which he incorporated into both skydiving and his love of nature. Hours were spent in nature preserves, on land and kayaking on Florida rivers, getting the perfect shot. While on vacation, he would take breath-taking landscape photos, but had to be reminded sometimes to include people. He was always a craftsman, but most recently became a wood-turning artisan. Smitty is survived by his wife of 45 years, Jennifer Smith; his two daughters Stephanie Rudy (Tim), and Christy Herrmann (Michael); and his sister Linda Miles. I knew Smitty from jumping with him in Clewiston. He was a really nice person, avid photographer and a hell of a good jumper. I will definitely miss him. RIP Smitty, BSBD

Male DNA. That indicates a team, at least a female to call Gunther and a male who licked the stamp. Or a male who did it all.

I could never do that myself, but many men have done that. Melvin Wilson did it for obvious reasons. But then you've got a guy like Lepsy, who seemingly just walked away from his wife and kids. Cooper could very well be one of these kinds of men. As far as the Gunther book goes, I recently read it as well. I enjoyed it. If I had to lay money on it, I'm betting hoax.

JAG- thank you so much for the synopsis... I take back ever saying -at best - Gunther's work could be a "plausible half-truth" and strongly move his work to being at best "random coincidence". The tell, the break in reality.

Here's my take . . . Before forums on the internet completely imploded into anonymity and incivility we urged the USPA Board to use the net to open a dialogue with its members. They didn't, and it was a combination of some not being computer savvy enough, or if they were, thinking it a severe breech of USPAs bunker mentality. And by bunker mentality I mean a combination of hiding most of the year in a cold weather state, allowing their RDs, ST&As, and (as we see here) their candidates to shield them from the heat on a day to day basis. And when they do make a public appearance en masse they use secrecy to shroud their inner workings. Now I'd think secrecy is sometimes called for in cases like fatalities so board members can speak frankly without the worry of offending long time friends or the deceased's families. But they surely abuse the secrecy thing and they use it for every hot button issue. Now a word or two on the first time candidates and the threads here where we're supposed to ask them questions. To the folks asking the questions - ease up a little bit. The candidates are the least culpable in anything the USPA has done in the past. And the candidates, even though they realize there are issues and problems, may think of the USPA like a benign and friendly member association when it's really more like the Mafia or the Hells Angels. What will happen is once elected the hierarchy of USPA will endeavor to convince them it's not them against USPA, it's USPA against the great unwashed, which is us - the rank and file members. So like freshman Congressmen they will either drink the kool-aid and get onboard or life will be made miserable for them. And being onboard means survival of the USPA is job one. And believe it, the board does hears us when we say things like we should drop USPA and go with AOPA, and it scares them. I suppose like many long time members I have a love/hate relationship with the USPA. In my first few years of the 70s, I loved them, I devoured every word in the magazine, and USPA was my hero and champion. Then slowly and through the 80s I saw the cracks began to appear, the nepotism, the old boy network, the don't rock the boat, and the propensity to hang individual jumpers out to dry when that was the easiest thing to do. And while I didn't realize it at the time USPA was becoming less a member's representative and more a trade group for people in the business of skydiving. So when we write long, pointed, almost accusatory posts, asking questions and demanding answers of our candidates we are already starting them down the road where it becomes easier for them to believe USPA and its methods are more sanctuary then adversary. And a lot of people here help that along by saying, "run for USPA office or shut the hell up!" That's B.S. It's like saying run for Congress or you have no right to voice opposition to your government. Yet, where we do fail is we don't confront the USPA enough with our concerns. So where the candidate's forum could work is in just listing our concerns for new candidates to become familiar with. Such as pure tandem mills getting association protection and benefits while excluding up-jumpers, a group member program that should be strictly a member to member program, and the fact USPA pretty much pulled the covers over their heads concerning the swoop death rate issue. I'd also like to see groundings come back. And not on a DZ level, but on a USPA level. People do get kicked off DZs these days, but it's usually for wacky ground antics and not wacky air antics. And anyway the offenders just move on to another DZ. I think any ST&A or Instructor should be able to document a jumper who's an accident waiting to happen, and if they prove their case, the aberrant jumper's USPA card would be flagged as grounded, not for 30 or 60 days, but if warranted for six months, or even forever. One thing that we accomplished when we grounded people all the time is sometimes it kept them from killing themselves in the next few jumps and it matured them a little bit. Another issue is USPA HQs very location. When they moved from San Francisco to the DC area many many years ago it sort of made sense. It was to be near the seats of power, and indeed Bill Ottley like to portray himself as running down to the halls of Congress (sometimes through the snow) for a beat down every time legislation that could possible affect skydiving popped up. But that was flawed reasoning and if you go along with it then USPA HQs should really be located across the street from FAA HQs in Oklahoma. But even that's a stretch in these days of instant communication and cheap airfares. USPA should be where the members are. I believe USPA HQ should be located in a Sunbelt state and next to a large DZ like Eloy, Perris, or Deland. A place where many members rotate in and out of, a place where the most members can knock on USPA's door year round with their concerns. As it is now it seems to me like they're hiding out in the DC area during the winter. Besides that there are other issues. I've watched USPA sit by and watch Instructors have their power stripped away, I've watched the various methods of instruction, the product of years of research and refinement turn into a hokey hodgepodge of hybrid programs designed to favor a DZOs bottom line rather than students and teachers. We totally allowed our AFF certification courses, once a flagship program copied the world over, to be dumbed down to the point of being toothless. There were I know issues with it but the answer was making the AFF cert course real schools on instruction and not just cert courses. But they skipped over that and just made the cert easier to get. Another thing I hear people say all the time is, "I'd rather have the USPA regulating us rather than the FAA." So let's examine that for a bit. This is a USPA scare tactic that works and they count on it. But the FAA, or more specifically the FARs, already does regulate the sport of skydiving, and also more importantly, they protect it. The feds recognize skydiving as a legitimate aeronautical activity and it's the reason we can't arbitrarily be banned from airports that accept federal funds (and that's the majority of GA airports.) Generally, Part 105 of the FARs is all we need to regulate skydiving. The USPA is just a façade built upon those federal regs. And if the USPA did all of sudden disappear and the FAA felt the need to get deeper into skydiving it would not be the end of the world. I'm sure like they do in other areas they'd hire experienced parachutists to oversee things and I could finally get my dream job. A skydiving instructor with a badge! Besides, rarely does an entire week go by without a General Aviation accident that results in fatalities. And most of the time it's not only a licensed pilot who dies, but they take one or more innocent passengers with them. The FAA understands well that when people fly people die. So I doubt they would overreact and start strictly over regulating skydiving. And seriously, if the FAA tried to do anything detrimental to skydiving there is actually more of a re-course already built into federal rule making system, and even more so than what we have with USPA. Thirty five or forty thousand of us could actually get the FAA to do something we wanted in the long run. They are bound by law to consider our concerns. Thirty five or forty thousand of us can't get the USPA to do anything. They can simply throw our concerns in the shitcan and there's nothing we can do about itl. I know many will say, "Who cares about all this?" And don't think the USPA doesn't count heavily on that. They know most of their members stay in the sport for seven years or so and those members just want to go to the DZ on weekends and make some jumps. And that's fine and dandy but who's watching the store? It used to be USPA printed a detailed line item budget every year in the magazine and any member could see where every penny went. They still run it but now it's so general in nature you really can’t tell where the money goes. There's no doubt Bill Ottley saved the USPA in the 80s when they didn’t have two cents to rub together. They were actually cancelling general membership meetings for a time because they couldn't afford them. But through some good real estate and investment deals Bill turned all that around. But the down side is now we have $100,000 per year Executive Directors camping out and collecting that money for years and years. The Executive Director slot shouldn't be a Pope for life position. Term limits should be in place and I'm not so sure letting the Board decide who gets the ED position is all that wise. But I don't know how to fix that as the general membership is too apathic to cast an informed vote in that regard. One thing maybe we could do is let any member run for the job of ED, and have the board vote rather than just decide like they do now. (BTW, I pretty sure that's the way it works so let me know if I'm wrong). And as it stands now the job of ED surely calls for someone who's not necessarily a very experienced jumper but more someone who's an experienced administrator. And in our ranks at large we have plenty of those folks. I've learned and taught others to always end a critique on a high note so here goes. The new website is great, a big improvement, and Shirley has made the magazine into a thing of beauty. But it's just lipstick on a, - Whoa, almost blew it there . . . NickD