Front riser turns for final = softer landing

[AggieDave 6]

Here you go, I'm going to give you the "no shit" canopy coach run down:

First of all, the Triathlon is a crappy canopy. It is the one canopy that does it all, but it does it all very poorly. It doesn't open as well, fly as well or land as well as other modern 7-cell designs. If you like 7-cell canopies, try jumping a Spectre or a Storm.

With that in mind, the Triathlon flares a bit differently than a modern design canopy. Spend a little time with a canopy coach that has some experience with the Tri to help you get the flare stroke down. Understand that you will have to relearn this if you go to a modern design canopy later.

Now, about the front riser use.

Play with your fronts all you want, above 3,000ft. Go do solo hop-n-pops or better yet, go do solo altitude clear and pulls. If you are unable to land your canopy well with out pulling a front risers, then you are doing something wrong or there is something wrong with the canopy. Even my Velo loaded over 2.7 lands well straight in.

Reading "the book" is a good first step, but it can not and does not replace an actual in the flesh canopy coach at your DZ. Someone to answer your questions and someone to video your landings and someone who can hold your hand while you learn complex new skills.

With your canopy at your wingloading you should be able to do a 180 degree flat turn in less than 100ft. It should be closer to 60ft. Can you do that? What does your canopy feel like right before it breaks into a stall? Do you know? How much altitude can you make your canopy burn doing a 90 degree front riser? How *little* altitude can you make the turn in? How little altitude can you recover your canopy in from a 90 degree front riser turn? How about a 90 degree toggle turn? If you don't know those numbers, you are not ready to bring your turns to the ground. Not guess at the numbers, but KNOW the numbers.

The point isn't to belittle you. The point isn't to make you feel like a low time jumper. The point is to motivate you to learn the important skills you need to become a top-level swooper. I spent a lot of time learning and practicing and getting coaching to build the foundation I needed to become a swooper. I used that foundation to earn a pro-card on the CPC circuit. I used that foundation to be a competitive swooper on the national level and I used that foundation to teach other people to be safe canopy pilots.

With out the foundation you will never do any of that. You can do all of that, but you must FIRST build the foundation. Your foundation is not built yet.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chuckakers 370]

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What altitude are you making your turn to final at?

For shit sake, don't encourage this guy by taking his silly ass seriously.

This clown is either a troll (read the first sentence of his post), or a crash in progress.

posting PA's does nothing to answer the question

That wasn't a PA, and his question shouldn't even be answered since it will only serve to encourage his idiotic behavior. If it makes your wet-noodle bowels feel better, let me speak your lingo...

"My goodness Mr. Helper, maybe we shouldn't encourage a jumper who may be putting himself in great danger of serious bodily harm or even death by lending advisory support to his possibly insufficient skills and desire to progress more quickly than might be prudent. It is possible - sir - that this otherwise highly intelligent human being may actually be making a rare mistake by attempting to learn the art of performance canopy flight before he is prepared and properly educated for it."

Some of us are sick of people candy-coating shit while dumbasses continue to pound their asses into the dirt. A bit of reality might (although Johnny Swoopalicious has given us no reason to believe so) make him think twice about his fuckupiness.

Some people just need a dose of reality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEbzM2FUP9s

Now go finish your Chablis and go to bed.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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Even if it is true that one can land OK from partial brakes on many canopies, it sure is a heck of a lot easier to land starting with more speed.

Nope. Many canopies my ass - ANY canopy.

I can - and have on numerous occasions - landed my horribly worn out Velo loaded 2.1:1 doing a braking/flaring 180 degree turn from less than 300 feet with a tip-toe landing. Additionally, I routine land it straight in at no more than full flight when traffic requires it.

The only thing speed does is change geometry. There is no reason whatsoever to make a canopy fly faster than full flight if the motivation is a soft landing.

The misinformation here is astounding.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[chuckakers 370]

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Here you go, I'm going to give you the "no shit" canopy coach run down:

First of all, the Triathlon is a crappy canopy. It is the one canopy that does it all, but it does it all very poorly. It doesn't open as well, fly as well or land as well as other modern 7-cell designs. If you like 7-cell canopies, try jumping a Spectre or a Storm.

With that in mind, the Triathlon flares a bit differently than a modern design canopy. Spend a little time with a canopy coach that has some experience with the Tri to help you get the flare stroke down. Understand that you will have to relearn this if you go to a modern design canopy later.

Now, about the front riser use.

Play with your fronts all you want, above 3,000ft. Go do solo hop-n-pops or better yet, go do solo altitude clear and pulls. If you are unable to land your canopy well with out pulling a front risers, then you are doing something wrong or there is something wrong with the canopy. Even my Velo loaded over 2.7 lands well straight in.

Reading "the book" is a good first step, but it can not and does not replace an actual in the flesh canopy coach at your DZ. Someone to answer your questions and someone to video your landings and someone who can hold your hand while you learn complex new skills.

With your canopy at your wingloading you should be able to do a 180 degree flat turn in less than 100ft. It should be closer to 60ft. Can you do that? What does your canopy feel like right before it breaks into a stall? Do you know? How much altitude can you make your canopy burn doing a 90 degree front riser? How *little* altitude can you make the turn in? How little altitude can you recover your canopy in from a 90 degree front riser turn? How about a 90 degree toggle turn? If you don't know those numbers, you are not ready to bring your turns to the ground. Not guess at the numbers, but KNOW the numbers.

The point isn't to belittle you. The point isn't to make you feel like a low time jumper. The point is to motivate you to learn the important skills you need to become a top-level swooper. I spent a lot of time learning and practicing and getting coaching to build the foundation I needed to become a swooper. I used that foundation to earn a pro-card on the CPC circuit. I used that foundation to be a competitive swooper on the national level and I used that foundation to teach other people to be safe canopy pilots.

With out the foundation you will never do any of that. You can do all of that, but you must FIRST build the foundation. Your foundation is not built yet.

Dave, I can only hope Nooberdude actually listens to you. I doubt it, but I hope.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jurgencamps 0]

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Front riser turns for final = softer landing

Or the contrary if you do it wrong

I would put al my efforts in doing normal straight in landings and getting the timing of the fare right.

Gr
Jurgen

[phoenixlpr 0]

It should not have any difference unless you turn low.

There are no short-cuts on landing. Leave the front risers alone!

How about learn how to fly a regular pattern and flare with proper timing?

[shah269 0]

Thanks guys,
I'll have to reread Brians book and retake his class.
As stated I had tried 90's with fronts (Look left pull on front left while pushing left hip down) in a standard pattern a few times and noticed that in 0 wind days i had more flare.
But as many of you indicated it is dangerous and not for a new guy. No problem.
I'll keep working on my flat turns, soft landing, accuracy and keep the front risers for 3kFt+.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Andy9o8 0]

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it is dangerous and not for a new guy. No problem.
I'll keep working on my flat turns, soft landing, accuracy and keep the front risers for 3kFt+.

That's enough trolling out of you, you...... troll. You make me want to puke!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-6jAEVjIE2o/SSGCQg_h8ZI/AAAAAAAAADs/r0APxxjMOLU/s320/DrillInstructor3.jpg

[shah269 0]

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it is dangerous and not for a new guy. No problem.
I'll keep working on my flat turns, soft landing, accuracy and keep the front risers for 3kFt+.

That's enough trolling out of you, you...... troll. You make me want to puke!

I'm going to have to reread that book and retake that class.
Why did I think cell pressure was a function of airspeed?
That said, conservative front riser turns would in theory increase cell pressure and thus make for a more rigid wing and so be more efficient?
Look I'm not whacking the fronts and doing some sick 360.
I was setting up, look left, left front riser pressure at 800ft, glide to 400, look left, left front riser pressure, glide to 200f look left flat toggle turn and line up for landing. The added speed just seemed to make for softer landings on zero wind days.
But as many have indicated it is not safe so I won't be doing that since I do enjoy this sport and wish to keep doing it for a very long time.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Why did I think cell pressure was a function of airspeed?

It is, to a degree.

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That said, conservative front riser turns would in theory increase cell pressure and thus make for a more rigid wing and so be more efficient?

The effect you are looking for (ie. a better flare for a softer landing) has more to do with airspeed/airflow over the wing and lift than rigidity/pressurization per se.

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Look I'm not whacking the fronts and doing some sick 360.
I was setting up, look left, left front riser pressure at 800ft, glide to 400, look left, left front riser pressure, glide to 200f look left flat toggle turn and line up for landing. The added speed just seemed to make for softer landings on zero wind days.

This description makes it clear that this effect is all in your head. Any speed you gained from the front riser turn at 800' has long gone by the time you land.

Dude - there are so many holes in your thinking and you don't even know what you don't know. I applaud your interest in canopy flight, but please get a canopy coach who knows what they are talking about (as opposed to just the nearest swooper or AFF instructor) and get some solid advice. AggieDave's advice up thread is excellent. There are lots of things you can do at altitude to get to know your canopy.

[wildcard451 0]

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I'm going to have to reread that book and retake that class.
Why did I think cell pressure was a function of airspeed?
That said, conservative front riser turns would in theory increase cell pressure and thus make for a more rigid wing and so be more efficient?
Look I'm not whacking the fronts and doing some sick 360.
I was setting up, look left, left front riser pressure at 800ft, glide to 400, look left, left front riser pressure, glide to 200f look left flat toggle turn and line up for landing. The added speed just seemed to make for softer landings on zero wind days.
But as many have indicated it is not safe so I won't be doing that since I do enjoy this sport and wish to keep doing it for a very long time.

Ahhh, this is clearer now. What you are feeling is all in your head. You are describing that you are flying the pattern with front risers....any speed you generate there is gone after the first 10 seconds returning to full flight, as the canopy is returning to full flight. Those turns you are making in the pattern have ZERO influence on the speed you have at flare time.

Also, don't, don't fly the pattern on fronts. This is not a place for aggressive diving turns. Gentle toggle/coordinated harness turning only.

[hokierower 0]

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I'm going to have to reread that book and retake that class. Why did I think cell pressure was a function of airspeed?

Dunno. A higher cell pressure doesn't mean you have a more effective wing, i.e. just because the pressure may have climbed, your triathlon isn't going to magically morph into a wing capable of faster sustained flight. The extra speed your initially feeling is a result of putting your canopy into a dive.

That said, conservative front riser turns would in theory increase cell pressure and thus make for a more rigid wing and so be more efficient?

Nope. Bad theory. A fully pressurized canopy is already as efficient as it's gonna get. Uping the PSI to a bajillion isn't gonna do squat except blow it up.

Look I'm not whacking the fronts and doing some sick 360. I was setting up, look left, left front riser pressure at 800ft, glide to 400, look left, left front riser pressure, glide to 200ft look left flat toggle turn and line up for landing. The added speed just seemed to make for softer landings on zero wind days.

Got to agree with the two guys above me, it's all in your head. The extra speed that you build up on a Tri 210 from a simple front riser 90 quickly disipates. I'd say within 3-5 seconds you're back to regular glide speed which is what you're landing at. The perception is screwing with yo brain foo.

But as many have indicated it is not safe so I won't be doing that since I do enjoy this sport and wish to keep doing it for a very long time.

I agree and I will be doing the same. Thanks to dave for the great advice. I'm picking up a N3 at halloween to get a more reliable read on my altitude loses during all canopy manuevers. I've been using my galaxy but would like a little bit more precision. My next training progression is crosswind and eventually downwind landings.

[davelepka 4]

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I was setting up, look left, left front riser pressure at 800ft, glide to 400, look left, left front riser pressure, glide to 200f look left flat toggle turn and line up for landing.

As other have mentioned, given the above sequence of events, no speed is being carried over into the flare. On a canopy like a larger Tri, the speed from a riser turn will quickly bleed off (just a few seconds) and you'll be back to full flight. All your riser turns are doing is jacking your arispeed up and down, and probably doing the same to your glide ratio. Your life will be way easier if you stick to easy toggle turns (no more than toggle down to shoulder height) and keep things more consistant during your time in the pattern. It also takes less thought and doesn't require you to grab/re-grab or hang onto your dive loop.

More importantly, what's with the flat turn to final? Again, why deviate from a standard turn at that point? Why not stick with consistancy for your sake and the sake of the others around you. A canopy behind you making a standard turn will shoot under you if you pull a falt turn onto final for no reason. They'll speed up and lose a touch of altitude, and you won't.

What you want to focus on is a 'stabilized' final aprroach, meaning that your canopy is in full flight and flying in a steady state (no acceleration in any direction) for a good 8 to 10 seconds. This ensures that you're really at 'full' flight, and all of your energy can be converted to flare power as opposed to some of your engery being soaked up counter-acting some other force.

You need to make a sure and strong flare stroke down to the sweet spot, where the canopy will level off for a moment. If you mush your way through this, you're bleeding off energy the whole time you're 'mushing'. Take the speed you have, and convert it to horizontal energy in a 'swift' fashion.

Once you feel the level-off subside and the canopy wants to resume sinking, complete the flare stroke fully, with the same sure and strong flare stroke you used for the first part. Keep in mind that the level-off and the time between the two flare motions might be slight, or it might even be more like a brief pause, almost impercpetable to the outside observer.

You really need some professional help, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Your posts are indicating that you're 'engineering' your canpoy control skills on your own, without the benefit of a qualifed instructor. You're making some fundamental errors in your thinking, and transferring those to your real world actions, which isn't a good thing.

It's like this - stick to what they taught you as a student. Qualified professionals told you how to handle yourself, and you should follow that until further notice. If you're unhappy with that course of action, seek another qualified professional (in-person, and paid to focus on you and your needs) to revise your list of what to do/not do, and how to go about it.

[pchapman 261]

Just a point about terminology, Shah:

I'm wondering if you are thinking of "flat turn" in a different sense. We normally think of a "flat turn" implying a braked turn, that is, both toggles are held down somewhat. It would indeed be an odd plan, as others have said, to do some accelerated turns (front risers) in the pattern and then do a braked flat turn to final.

But you might have been thinking of a "flat turn" only in the sense that you weren't hooking it sharply into a steep turn. We'd then just say a shallow turn, gradual turn, or something like that. "Flat turn" tends to have a specific skydiving meaning beyond not having a sharp bank angle. I think...

[shah269 0]

Roger flat turn as in a nice cooridnated turn using togles.

Also

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This description makes it clear that this effect is all in your head. Any speed you gained from the front riser turn at 800' has long gone by the time you land.

DOOH! Yes you are 100% right I'm sorry my bad!
Didn't even think about that....I'm gaining speed for that 1 second but in 3 seconds it's all gone!
Major DOOH!
thanks guys!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Rigless 0]

You know what's the solution to your landing problems?

Jumping more.

"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

[shah269 0]

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You know what's the solution to your landing problems?

Jumping more.

Ha HA smart ass!
Yes I will do my best to jump more and think less!
Or not at all!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,400]

>Ha HA smart ass! Yes I will do my best to jump more and think less!

I think that would benefit you, honestly. Less thinking about modifying your equipment and doing low front riser turns, and more experience packing, jumping, landing etc. would make you safer overall.

[shah269 0]

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>Ha HA smart ass! Yes I will do my best to jump more and think less!

I think that would benefit you, honestly. Less thinking about modifying your equipment and doing low front riser turns, and more experience packing, jumping, landing etc. would make you safer overall.

But I just ordered a bucket of those neodymium magnets! And am thinking of maybe "creating" some sort of.....
Just kidding!

No you guys are right, the more I think about it yes using front risers down that low is not the safest thing to do since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues!

Rears and toggles it is!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[AggieDave 6]

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since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues!

No it isn't the safest thing to do because you don't have the foundation of skills built to do it safely, regardless of conditions.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chuckakers 370]

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since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues!

No it isn't the safest thing to do because you don't have the foundation of skills built to do it safely, regardless of conditions.

Wisdom from the old school. Go figure.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[davelepka 4]

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using front risers down that low is not the safest thing to do since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues

No. This you thinking too much on your own again. Exposing the top skin of the canopy is not a factor in any way, the problem is that making a riser turn is different than making a toggle turn.

The toggles are already in your hands, the pressure is light and the response is immediate and consistant. You can make a toggle turn without taking your eyes off of the sky, and without much thought.

A riser turn requires to reach up, locate and pull a dive loop or riser that's presumably not already in your hands. Even if you can 'usually' get them without looking, the times you don't you'll end up having to look up to locate the grip and will also be falling behind schedule. Keep in mind you wanted to turn back when you first reached for the loop/riser, and if you miss and have to look and make another go, you're not in the same place as when you originally wanted to turn. You're further along and lower, and neither of those is good under canopy.

Beyond that, the risers, and your ability to pull them and enact change, are directly connected to airspeed. If you have too much of it when you want to turn, the riser will be rock solid and you won't get much 'turn' out of it at all. Toggles, on the other hand, are fairly consistant in their pressure, and even when the toggle pressure goes up, it stays within a 'reasonable' range, and is always within your ability to pull them down immediately.

I'll repeat, you really should stop trying to figure things out on your own or over the internet. You seem like a smart guy, and if you want to understand canopy flight better, coming to your own conclusions is not the way to go. Hunt down some additional education/training, and devote some time and attention toward becoming a more informed, better canopy pilot. If you try to do this on your own, it's not going to end well.

[hokierower 0]

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No you guys are right, the more I think about it yes using front risers down that low is not the safest thing to do since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues!

I don't understand why you keep trying to make a very simple concept more difficult. It's almost like you are too proud/arrogant to agree that people at our stage in this sport do not have the PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE to perform these maneuvers at a critically low altitude. Instead you try and insert unfounded crap into your statements in the hopes that it distracts people from the original topic. Why?

[shah269 0]

I'm just thinking out loud.
If i don't ask I don't learn and well if i don't learn than....well let's be honest what's the point of life if you are not learning.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JerseyShawn 0]

Hey Shah.

You said you had better landings getting some speed with your fronts for a better flare and softer landing. I've never tried it (don't plan on it), but others have said you loose that speed within a few seconds after. So, your softer landings were simply full flight and good timing of your flare, all you, no fronts! Good job man! Just fly with toggles and repeat your flare technique.

Ask the more respected jumpers on your loads to watch your landings, critique you. Its free, and I've never been met with any resistance asking people to watch my patterns and landings. Then ask about different flying techniques and what you can and can't try.

Be safe Shah.