Front riser turns for final = softer landing

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Hey Shah.

You said you had better landings getting some speed with your fronts for a better flare and softer landing. I've never tried it (don't plan on it), but others have said you loose that speed within a few seconds after. So, your softer landings were simply full flight and good timing of your flare, all you, no fronts! Good job man! Just fly with toggles and repeat your flare technique.

Ask the more respected jumpers on your loads to watch your landings, critique you. Its free, and I've never been met with any resistance asking people to watch my patterns and landings. Then ask about different flying techniques and what you can and can't try.

Be safe Shah.

Good post, man.

Supportive, correct and good advice. Nice going.

[Remster 24]

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since it causes the top skin to be exposed to more windshear and turbulence which could intern cause very serious issues!

No it isn't the safest thing to do because you don't have the foundation of skills built to do it safely, regardless of conditions.

Wisdom from the old school. Go figure.

[points and laughs] Ha ah! You just called AggieDave old!

Remster

[spootch 0]

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Hey Shah.

You said you had better landings getting some speed with your fronts for a better flare and softer landing. I've never tried it (don't plan on it), but others have said you loose that speed within a few seconds after. So, your softer landings were simply full flight and good timing of your flare, all you, no fronts! Good job man! Just fly with toggles and repeat your flare technique.

Ask the more respected jumpers on your loads to watch your landings, critique you. Its free, and I've never been met with any resistance asking people to watch my patterns and landings. Then ask about different flying techniques and what you can and can't try.

Be safe Shah.

Good post, man.

Supportive, correct and good advice. Nice going.

agreed !

[skywombat 0]

I haven't got the experience to say anything about front-riser landings, but I will tell you this. Check the version number on your Triathlon, and the line trim. I used to have quite a few hard landings and it took a while (and some smart riggers) to figure out what was going on and to fix it all.

There exists something called the "Triathlon V4 Line Mod", which was a modification to the brake line attachment points done by Aerodyne since (I want to say) version 4. There is no service bulletin for this anywhere that I could find, but if you call Aerodyne and ask, they will very helpfully explain what is going on and send you a PDF to print out and give to your rigger, who can do the modification (it is a very quick job). You can check if you have the modification by looking at your tail - if there is a brake line attached to the very corner of the tail, you most likely do not have it done (but check with your rigger). Doing the line mod is said to improve openings and flare, which is consistent with my experience when I had it done.

Also, when was the last time you had your Triathlon relined? Who did the relining - did you send it in, or have it done locally? From what their service representative told me, if you had the lines replaced according to the published line spec (on flyaerodyne.com), you are required to have had the V4 Line Mod done if you don't already have it (that line spec assumes it is already done). The spec itself doens't really mention this, so if someone other than Aerodyne did the relining, they just sort of have to know about this. So, it is another reason to have someone double-check it.

Finally, check your brake settings and trim (have your rigger do it). From what I understand, Aerodyne measures their brake lines a little bit differently than other manufacturers ("from the riser") and if they are done the "other" way, your brake lines will be quite a bit shorter than they need to be, leading to some funny openings and crummy landings.

Again, don't take my (possibly wrong) word for it, but call up Aerodyne and ask them about this stuff. In my experience, they have been very helpful in resolving the problems, (even if the documentation on their website is a little bit lacking) and my landings have been improved as a result of this.

I hope this helps you
Steve

[popsjumper 2]

Yep. All you said was true.
Their on-line ordering only offers the 4.0 mod set. The lines come with no indication whatsoever that it is the 4.0 set. The on-line ordering says nothing about the line set being the 4.0 mod.

If you have the older version line set-up (attachment points on the corner), and want to keep it, you're hosed until you get the line trim specs for it from them via phone call...and that took more than one call to finally get to someone there who knew about this problem.

I sent them a note over two years ago to ask that they put verbiage to that affect on their web page (such a simple thing to do) and.....nothing.

I have two Triathlon canopies one 4.0 and one original.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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You're still using altitude to determine turning points?

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Yes, I am. Along with canopy course instructors and pro-swoopers, but that was not the intent of my question (see reply above).

Edited for clarity: The above does not mean "fly along until you hit x feet then turn". The turns are made at the same altitude, but they vary in their position over the ground according to the conditions.

And you'll soon be learning (hopefully) to vary that altitude while varying the position to land in that tiny back yard under any conditions. All of it is a variable and there are no absolutes in it.

So, how do you handle it if you can't make that turn at your pre-determined altitude, say, due to traffic?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVinciflies 0]

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You're still using altitude to determine turning points?

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Yes, I am. Along with canopy course instructors and pro-swoopers, but that was not the intent of my question (see reply above).

Edited for clarity: The above does not mean "fly along until you hit x feet then turn". The turns are made at the same altitude, but they vary in their position over the ground according to the conditions.

And you'll soon be learning (hopefully) to vary that altitude while varying the position to land in that tiny back yard under any conditions. All of it is a variable and there are no absolutes in it.

So, how do you handle it if you can't make that turn at your pre-determined altitude, say, due to traffic?

Then I'll just make the turn where it's safe and be flexible to accept a non-ideal situation. In this situation the turn is likely to be a regular toggle turn or even a flat turn if required, rather than my standard front riser turn, and I am likely to be further from my desired target than planned.

Varying the pattern altitudes on jumps when there is no need to is a bad idea. It adds an extra variable to the pattern and, contrary to what you imply, will hinder accuracy.

A guy with over 10,000 jumps once told me that he liked having to abort an HP turn once in a while as it proved to him that he still had the discipline to do so. I liked that sentiment.

[billvon 2,400]

>>You're still using altitude to determine turning points?

>Yes, I am.

I'd recommend you work on getting away from that. There are times where having your eyes out 100% of the time is important (crowded pattern) and knowing altitude by just looking helps with that.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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>>You're still using altitude to determine turning points?

>Yes, I am.

I'd recommend you work on getting away from that. There are times where having your eyes out 100% of the time is important (crowded pattern) and knowing altitude by just looking helps with that.

Then you would be in direct contradiction of all the canopy coaches and pro-swoopers to whom I have spoken.

It is possible to fly safely and have a disciplined pattern (ie. pre-determined flight plan with altitude checkpoints) while being aware of other canopies in the sky. Avoiding a crowded pattern starts a LONG time before you are in it.

There are many people who lack the discipline or interest to fly with this degree of care and attention, but I am not one of them.

[billvon 2,400]

>It is possible to fly safely and have a disciplined pattern (ie.
>pre-determined flight plan with altitude checkpoints) while being aware of
>other canopies in the sky.

Absolutely! And you do not have to look at your altimeter to do that. It just takes practice.

And note that I am NOT saying ignore your altimeter. Use it for as long as you need to. But while you are doing that start comparing it to the ground to see what 2000 feet looks like, then 1000 feet, then 500 feet etc.

Then start looking at it SECOND. Fly your pattern and say "OK I am at 1000 feet so I'm starting downwind." Then look at your altimeter. If it says 1800 feet (or 500!) then you need more work. If you're always within 1100-900 feet then you're learning.

Eventually you will get to the point where you don't need to look at your altimeter at all. And when you get cut off, and there are 3 people coming at you in the direction you want to turn, you can focus all your attention on the traffic and not need to look at your altimeter to determine where to turn and what to do when.

[DaVinciflies 0]

I agree with you about minimizing altimeter fixation - of course! And I certainly agree with trying to train the eye.

However, I cannot tell the difference between 700' and 800' by eye. Maybe there are some that can, but I can't, and that makes a difference when you are trying to produce consistent, safe swoops (which of course I would not be doing in traffic anyway).

[popsjumper 2]

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And you'll soon be learning (hopefully) to vary that altitude while varying the position to land in that tiny back yard under any conditions. All of it is a variable and there are no absolutes in it.
So, how do you handle it if you can't make that turn at your pre-determined altitude, say, due to traffic?

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Then I'll just make the turn where it's safe and be flexible to accept a non-ideal situation. In this situation the turn is likely to be a regular toggle turn or even a flat turn if required...

Excellent!

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...rather than my standard front riser turn,

I'll have to go with the majority here and say, "not good".

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Varying the pattern altitudes on jumps when there is no need to is a bad idea.

Disagree strongly. This is good training opportunity.

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It adds an extra variable to the pattern...

...and that is why.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a particular skill before you actually had to use it?

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...and, contrary to what you imply, will hinder accuracy.

If you are only flying in one set pattern comfort zone then, yes...having to make a turn at other than your normal altitude will affect your accuracy if that's the only thing you know how to do.

In that case, you're not learning about your canopy. The idea is to learn, and practice, more so that you can be accurate in a variety of situations.

What are you going to do on that off landing where you have to snake it in through some health-threatening obstacles?


One other thing....swooping is not part of this discussion and has nothing to do with when, or how, to turn in a landing pattern. Swooping is a different animal. YOU are swooping now? Man, you must have put in a helluva lot of jumps in the past year.


I'm not here to argue with you. I'm simply offering some helpful hints on being a better canopy pilot. I'm not looking for excuses or justifications for your actions. You can do what you like, eh?

I DO agree with Bill on weaning yourself off the altimeter for pattern landings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVinciflies 0]

You guys have obviously made up your minds on this and I know what I have learned from some very talented pilots.

I do think that, as instructors, you should be careful in telling others not to plan and attempt to fly a well thought out and predictable pattern. Variability leads to unpredictability and leaves one with no plan on which to build the next jump.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

[rwieder 0]

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This description makes it clear that this effect is all in your head. Any speed you gained from the front riser turn at 800' has long gone by the time you land.

DOOH! Yes you are 100% right I'm sorry my bad!
Didn't even think about that....I'm gaining speed for that 1 second but in 3 seconds it's all gone! Major DOOH! thanks guys!

Shah: There are a lot of very intelligent sky divers & canopy pilots that I've known my whole sky diving life that are actually trying to help you. They have provided you with plenty of info. I've seen sky divers that have the same mentality that you do, wanting to take in too much, too fast with low jump numbers. They told me in FJC that if I didn't want to see any of my friends die sky diving, don't take on this sport. Have you ever seen anyone bounce, burn in, have you ever seen anyone's canopy hit the ground before they do? I have, it hurts, but it happens when people won't, don't, refuse to listen. It's not too late for you.....yet. Forget swooping for right now and concentrate on learning all of the basics. I know you think your past all of that, but your not. You obviously want respect from your skydiving peers, your not going to have it handed to you, you have to EARN IT. So do it. I don't know you but I don't approve of your progression tatics. Your being foolish & you can/will wind up in the incidents forum. So cool out, act like you got some sense. Be safe and have fun and don't wind up in the wrong forum. Please accept this in the spirit it is intended.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[billvon 2,400]

>However, I cannot tell the difference between 700' and 800' by eye.

I can't either - but I also don't think that that should be the most important goal. Altimeters are great tools, but I don't think they are as reliable as your eyes. Someday that altimeter is going to be 100 feet off, and when that happens hopefully the data coming from your eyes will take precedence.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's not too late for you.....yet. Forget swooping for right now and concentrate on learning all of the basics. I know you think your past all of that, but your not. You obviously want respect from your skydiving peers, your not going to have it handed to you, you have to EARN IT. So do it. I don't know you but I don't approve of your progression tatics. Your being foolish & you can/will wind up in the incidents forum.

I'm not getting the vibe that this guy is a DGIT at all. All I'm seeing is someone a bit technical in his mentality asking a bunch of questions. (this specific case, his intent wasn't swooping, it was a misunderstanding of what a swoop was, and exploration of how to improve his landings. The concept proposed was reasonable for someone high intelligence, but with little experience and the answers to correct his mis-perception were mostly on target though muddied with the knee jerk reactions we're sensitive to nowadays)

Every student processes things differently - some just crave a ton of info and really do like the physics of it all. They want the answers, but that doesn't always mean they are trying to go too fast. It's just the way they are wired. I think Shah is hypothesizing something, and before trying it out himself he's asking more experienced people if he has it right. Read the thread, he got decent input, decided not to do it. Good for him.

Now, there are others that do try to go too fast. They just go it and think their 'instincts' are good enough - in other words, they are lazy and don't want to go do their homework.



give me a newbie that asks a lot of questions, and then listens. I'll take them every time. They deserve honest and direct answers, we need to avoid giving the "absolute conservative" responses (CYA stuff) - that just shuts their ears, give them 'real' explanations, and then watch them to see if they really get what we tell them in practice.

teaching is great - you find out that every student is different, and not just a repeat of our personal experiences.

FWIW


EDIT: Shah - more speed does translate into more power - but as you've now read here, the timing aspect of it is not something for new jumper to experiment with on landing...... HOWEVER - it can be a refinement of a good technique. NOT a replacement for learning a good technique. Do it in order: learn to fly and land the heck out of your current canopy, straight in landing with normal toggle flares. no need to induce speed since getting that energy for landing is the definition of a swoop and requires good timing. A good canopy coach will be able to get you started in a couple hundred jumps just as part of learning the basics - long before you ever even want to consider riser turns to final. In the meantime, play with your risers and harness turns etc all you want - up high..

The only real issue I saw, was you thinking your "instructors were too busy" to talk to you

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

Thank you everyone.
So much great info was provided.
But just to clear things up since we are now on page 3 i was making my left hand turns via pulling on the front left toggle.
I was not swooping or diving just turning with the front toggle.
But yeah at this low a jump numper so not a good thing to do.
Thanks!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Remster 24]

There is no such thing as a front toggle.

There may be a front riser dive loop (or block), but not a toggle.

Skydiving is a fairly technical sport. Make sure you use the right terms otherwise you may be saying something completely different than what yo mean.

And if you turn, you dive (unless you are performing a flat turn) to some dregree.

Remster

[shah269 0]

Oh and i was kicking my leggs too!

I'm very sorry yes!

I would look left look right look left pull on left dive loop...feel the speed increase release and line up for next point.

The landings weren't softer rather I felt more umph in the flare when the toggles were extended all the way.

Hard to expalin. But I think after reading everying it was all in my head and that for the last few jumps, I actually had my timing down
It's kind of nice to land and not get your pants dirty!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[popsjumper 2]

Last attempt:


OK you are in defensive mode needlessly and will not understand what anyone says because you are not listening. Instead, you're trying to squeeze new info into a tiny pigeoon hole of pre-learning and it's not working out.

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You guys have obviously made up your minds on this and I know what I have learned from some very talented pilots.

I think you are confusing a very basic training mechanism (planning and flying a pattern) with hints on more advanced techniques (how you could handle things when that perfect pattern gets disrupted.).

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I do think that, as instructors, you should be careful in telling others not to plan and attempt to fly a well thought out and predictable pattern.

OK...this upsets me that you would intentionally try to discredit what has been said by twisting it into something totally wrong.
Nobody has said not to fly well thought out and predictable patterns. Nobody.
What was indicated to you was to introduce some variables and practice handling them.

For example:"You planned to turn at 600ft? What do I do if I get squeezed and can only turn at 500ft?"

Right now the word "planning" is big in your mind.
So...PLAN your next landing pattern for turns at 100ft lower than normal. Simple, eh?

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Variability leads to unpredictability and leaves one with no plan on which to build the next jump.

Again, for the last time, Every jump is variable and unpredictable to an extent. What are you gonna do when that perfect plan gets hosed?

Right now you're learning how to hit fastballs....Be forewarned, my young friend, Life is gonna fuck you up with that nasty curveballl she's got.

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Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.

You can't disagree with someone when you have no clue as to what they are saying unless you make up your own scenarios thinking life fits only into that one pigeonhole.
Have fun, dude.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[piisfish 135]

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There is no such thing as a front toggle..

this is what I thought too until that Noshitthereiwas moment when I thought my Paracommander was hooked up backwards and thought I was going to die. Then I realised that the horizontal speed wasn't going to kill me anyways. Then I realised that the toggles were in front, and that was the way it was meant to be.

Sorry for the Noise added to the thread, just had to

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Remster 24]

Smartass...

Remster

[normiss 622]

"OK you are in defensive mode needlessly and will not understand what anyone says because you are not listening. "

Really?????

[popsjumper 2]

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"OK you are in defensive mode needlessly and will not understand what anyone says because you are not listening. "

Really?????

It took me a while to catch on....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skywombat 0]

Ah, I found it - see attached. This is what my Triathlon looked like before I had the line mod done. Note how the indicated line goes to the very corner of the tail. With the line mod, the indicated line is now attached to where the red circle is. This has helped improve the flare power.

If your tail looks like the photo, you may want to call up Aerodyne and have them send you the diagram for the mod (which may involve switching to the updated line spec- ask them about this too and give everything they send you to your rigger).

Steve