andy2 0 #1 April 19, 2003 how come many people dont use astra's anymore? Are they no good? Harder to maintain? Whats the deal with them? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #2 April 19, 2003 Astras have been known to "malfunction" and they can be accidentally turned on and off in freefall. Some people do actually prefer them so they can turn them off while they are under canopy. Cypres is more reliable and dependable in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #3 April 19, 2003 but generally a few hundred more exspensive? Do astras go off accidentally more than cypres's generally? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #4 April 19, 2003 Hate to break it to you... Skydiving is expensive. I saw an Astra misfure at 10k feet last year since it got bumped on in the plane. I heard of a Cypres misfire at Perris last year too. They are both based on a computer controlled trigger, its just that the Astra has external switches that can be used to turn it off. Since its so easy to turn off I've seen people forget to turn it back on too.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #5 April 19, 2003 It depends on where you buy them, if you look hard enough, you can get a new cypress for about $800 to $900. Of course if you know the right people you can get them for cost plus tax & shipping ($650). I dont have any hard numbers on premature deployments or lack of deployment, maybe someone else can answer that one, but I believe that historically all AADs werent reliable (not like you would want to rely on one anyways, but that is a whole different topic). Cypres came out as the most reliable one and best in ease of use, etc. depending on what marketing spin you would like to quote. It became the leader in the market and it seems to be what everyone jumps with. Another thing with Astras from their website: Quote The barometric pressure changes daily, therefore, for safety, the unit must be recalibrated before each jump at the ground level of the drop zone by performing all the steps in the operation steps table Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #6 April 19, 2003 QuoteHate to break it to you... Skydiving is expensive. I saw an Astra misfure at 10k feet last year since it got bumped on in the plane. I heard of a Cypres misfire at Perris last year too. They are both based on a computer controlled trigger, its just that the Astra has external switches that can be used to turn it off. Since its so easy to turn off I've seen people forget to turn it back on too. Yah, and if you forget to turn the ASTRA off after every jump you will eat the batteries WAY fast. That's a serious drawback to the Astra. Cypres is turn it on and forget it basicly. Sure, you should always check that it is on (or off if that's what you want for that jump) but it's very low in user input. Astra seems to be user intensive comparitivly. My $.02 Chris Schindler Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #7 April 19, 2003 Quote Hate to break it to you... Skydiving is expensive. Yup - VERY expensive. At least until one has enough experieence, jump numbers, and ratings to make a little cash-ola to put toward one's addition . . . er . . . um . . . I mean . . . hobby!I jump a CYPRES with confidence. I consider it an investment, quite like life insurance. If y'all are interested, here's my opinion on AADs Manufacturer's info on CYPRES misfires can be found here: yet another clicky link Manufacturer's info on the Astra is here Not much on misfires, though. It also seems to not have been updated recently. I did a search on the PIA Riggers Forum for "misfire" and got nothing. Search for the same word here in these forums and there's plenty to read. I don't know anything about an Astra, but I have a great history with the CYPRES, including witnessing a live save in 1994, Read about that here in this thread My two cents. Hope it helped! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #8 April 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteHate to break it to you... Skydiving is expensive. I saw an Astra misfure at 10k feet last year since it got bumped on in the plane. I heard of a Cypres misfire at Perris last year too. They are both based on a computer controlled trigger, its just that the Astra has external switches that can be used to turn it off. Since its so easy to turn off I've seen people forget to turn it back on too. Yah, and if you forget to turn the ASTRA off after every jump you will eat the batteries WAY fast. That's a serious drawback to the Astra. Cypres is turn it on and forget it basicly. Sure, you should always check that it is on (or off if that's what you want for that jump) but it's very low in user input. Astra seems to be user intensive comparitivly. My $.02 Chris Schindler AFAIK, FXC fixed that issue with the Astra and all new models now shut themsleves off after a set time like a Cypres. Also, I think you can send older Astra's back to be refitted with this mod. While a lot of bad things have been said about the Astra, there are some advantages. I've had several friends complete a full days jumping only to realize that they had forgot to turn on their Cypres. The Astra control unit is external, making this much harder to due. Yhe unit also has a blinking light that assures you that it is active. The Astra fires at 1000 ft vs. ~750 for the Cypres(though you can trick the Cypres to fire higher). That's equals ~ double the amount of time under your reserve. Those extra 10-20 seconds may make the difference between a rattled low-timer getting hurt and landing their reserve safely. Robustness. If you read the Cypres owner's manual, they will flat out tell you that the Cypres is fragile and especially suceptable to wire damage. The Astra is a much more robust unit with a sturdy metal casing and heavier wiring. Finally, the Astra is tremendously cheaper in the long run. Batteries are about the same as a Cypress, but the Astra doesn't have to be sent in four four year checks. This is a savings of over $300! Also, as long as the Astra passing its rigger's check, a Astra has no set lifespan. Compare that to 12 years with the Cypres. In the end, it comes down to owner's prefernece. I have maintained and used both systems. Both do the job and do it well. Pick the one you feel most comfortabel with. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #9 April 20, 2003 I set my cypres in the morning before the first load. After checking that it initilizes ok and is ready I forget about it. Astra I would have to turn on and of for each jump, and off after the day ends. No way to set different landing altitudes etiher (is there?). The only advantage I can see about the astra is that it can be turned off under canopy, but under a 170 I can't get my cypres to fire anyway. There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #10 April 20, 2003 The ASTRA is a much better deal. It's tougher, batteries are cheap. And it can be turned off under canopy. The unit has been improved over the years and is just as good, if not better than the Cypres. I sold my Cypres and bought a new ASTRA. If you fly a hot canopy and hook, you need an ASTRA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #11 April 20, 2003 Can anybody point me to an online dealer that sells Astras? -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #12 April 20, 2003 www.paragear.com Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #13 April 20, 2003 QuoteI saw an Astra misfure at 10k feet last year since it got bumped on in the plane. Good example. I talked to the guys dad, and the Astra DID have all the latest modifications. QuoteAFAIK, FXC fixed that issue with the Astra and all new models now shut themsleves off after a set time like a Cypres Unfortunately, not true. The FXC-astra website hasn't posted any "news" since '97, and doesn't say anything about this feature. If only the Cypres was as rugged as the Astra, we would have the best of both worlds. If you do a search at rec.skydiving (remember they came out in the mid 90's), you will read of many first hand and eyewitness accounts of misfires, and other problems. I know this because I also hoped that it was a viable alternative to the Cypres when I bought new gear last summer-I quickly realized why they actually do have a bad reputation. Consider this, the unit can be reset/recalibrated at whatever altitude that an intermittent circuit (power)/glitch/switch movement/whatever happens. However, the Cypress will shut itself off if it had an interruption of power-you would have to go through all the button pushes to turn it back on, and then it would fail/not calibrate itself while climbing. FXC actually claims the lack of a "time consuming" on-off procedure as an advantage! I think it is simply a dumb engineering decision to have a switch so obviously vulnerable to inadvertent actuation. I think it likely the misfire at 10K mentioned earlier was due to the unit somehow being turned off and then on at 9K. The cypress simply can't suffer this failure because of the "time consuming" on-off procedure-it has a purpose! Also, the ability to easily field test the astra in a chamber is not worth very much. I suggest reading more about the tests that are done to the Cypres during the 4 & 8 year checks. The Cypres is put through a whole lot more testing than just a "fire/no-fire" test at some approximate descent rate in a chamber. I won't be happy when I have to send mine in for the check, but I understand that it is worth doing and can't be accomplished in a simple chamber at your local DZ. The 12 year life is also unfortunate, but I wonder if the Astra has the type of capacitors and other electronic devices that are known to predictably degrade and fail over time. If you want to consider alternatives, we have a lot left to know about the new Mpaad. I think it also benefits/suffers from the advantage/disadvantage of not being thoroughly checked at the factory periodically. I also think it might be uncomfortable against the back and may be more vulnerable to damage from tossing your rig down on the floor. The popularity of the Astra did not suffer because of brand loyalty or snobbery or unfounded rumors. At the time of its introduction, there was a lot of hope that the Astra would be all that it promised. The marketplace decided the fate of the Astra for reasons that should not be ignored. Maybe we should exert our collective clout and lobby Airtec to stop charging for the maintenance. At least when your car needs scheduled maintenance, it is possible to do it yourself for free (except for parts and special tools). (edit-spelling)People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #14 April 20, 2003 Quotewww.paragear.com Doh... been too long since I've gotten sleep. Hrm, that kindof shoots the cheaper reasoning for getting an Astra, Paragear's price for Cypres is 900, Astra is 995. Not accounting for required maintenance -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #15 April 20, 2003 Another point, the Astra can't be adjusted for a different airport vs. DZ altitude.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #16 April 20, 2003 QuoteIf you fly a hot canopy and hook, you need an ASTRA Please explain this comment. Thanks.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #17 April 20, 2003 The Astra has a higher speed threshold, so you could say it is better in that respect for REALLY FAST swoopers. (edit-clarity)People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #18 April 20, 2003 I believe what Krilis is trying to say is you can turn it off under canopy. But I've seen a lot of the Factory jumpers with Cypres in their rigs and they never seem to have an issue with it. I think Hooknswoop might be approaching firing speeds under his VX 60 at 3.2:1 in the high mountian air of CO. The number of people that are flying at this type of speeds is about a handful in the US. For your average swooper, and that is 99.9% of the swoopers out there, they will not reach firing speeds after getting a canopy above their head and flying. I think using the high proformance canopy rational as a "downfall" to the cypres is'nt looking at the picture realistically. If the major factory teams only take their cypres's out to swoop the ponds and have never had an issue with a misfire I don't think that the rest of us weekend warriors have anything to worry about.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #19 April 20, 2003 Quote($650) Seen the $/Euro exchange rate lately? "Cost" ain't $650 anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #20 April 20, 2003 Yes, of course being able to turn it off is an Astra advantage, although again I say the process could be made more accident resistant and be quick/easy enough. I don't see Cyrpes II or Mpaad as being able to turn off under canopy any differently than available now, given the location of their control units. For me, someone else being able to turn it off in a plane is OK for accessability, and I like the control unit being tucked up out of the way much better than NEEDING to have the control unit in easy grasp. Just another thing that will not snag a line or canopy, etc. QuoteI think using the high proformance canopy rational as a "downfall" to the cypres is'nt looking at the picture realistically. Absolutely! In a perfect world we could decide our own threshold speed. I think mine would be slower than the existing expert model, because if I'm descending that fast under my PD210, I need help, and the student model is too slow. I want the speed that is "just right". The hot swoopers could make it 100 mph if needed. Unfortunately, I think that adjustability might raise the price a lot. Competition will breed innovation. I'll bet the folks at L&B are executing a plan to do better than the Neptune by Alti-2. FXC should have been able to do a much better job. They had a clear target to beat. In my opinion they failed in every way except that they put it in a real case. I hope for competition's sake that the we can learn more about the innards of the Mpaad so we can gauge its value vs. price. More to come on AAD alternatives...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #21 April 20, 2003 Do a Google search for something like "Astra Skydiving" or whatever............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 April 20, 2003 Andy, I work with a company that does parachute testing. A couple of years ago we piggy back some field test of the Astra on another program. I found the the Astra is easy to confuse, and when it gets confused it fires. Some test programs are conducted in the "window" of AAD's, 1000 feet AGL and 180 Kts. When the test item goes for the still air of the A/C to the 180 kts. wind and 1000 or less, the Astra fired on several occasions. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #23 April 21, 2003 Sparky, Did you test the Cypres too? Also, why is it bad that the Astra fired when exiting at 1,000 feet AGL or less? Isn't that what it should do? Wouldn't that be similar to chopping the main at 1,000 feet and not pulling the reserve handle? I'm just trying to understand the test and why having the Astra fire is bad under those conditions. If you exit the plane at 1,000 feet, should it wait to see if you open something, or just fire and get one over your head? Remember, if you're going to go out at 1,000 feet AGL on purpose, you'd probably turn the Astra off anyway (and that's easier to do than turning off a Cypres). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #24 April 21, 2003 Assuming that it is firing right away-out the door, I would say that is bad, if before significant vertical velocity is achieved. If I'm getting out at '1000, I'm going for the reserve anyway, but that is a separate thread. I would not be worrying about my Cypress firing first.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #25 April 21, 2003 BadDog, We did not do any formal testing on the cypres, but on several occasions I have left the A/C under the same conditions and not have my cypres fire. Before everyone tells me that is not smart, [i.e.] to jump from 1000 ft. but I get paid very well, thank you. Sparky P.S. Spell check on this sure keeps me from looking completely stupid.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
